I hate the phrase "Keeping up with the Joneses"

[sv2007]

Do folks generally really believe that all debt problems are caused by people attempting to "Keep up with the Joneses"? If I could choose one phrase to not see used ever again, I think it would be that one. It's so presumptuous and filled with arrogance.

I, for one, managed to get in the mess I'm in without giving one **** about the Joneses. :-)

Thoughts?

I think it isn't seeing what others have and wanting it; instead, it is being exposed to clever (creatively helpful?) ads informing you that you need something even before youknow it yourself. We live in a super saturated ad-filled world these days. I get bombarded with ads when I take a break from work and surf the web.

[Singuy]

I don't think the "Joneses" must be someone else. It could be yourself. You know why you are in debt? Because your income can't keep up with your own wants and needs.

[Fishindude77]

Most people that I know who are overwhelmed by debt got that way through student loans to advance their careers

In many cases, this is absolutely "keeping up with the Joneses".
All their friends and acquaintances are running off to college, many paid by parents, many going into debt, etc., and be damned if they'll be left behind slugging it out with the blue collar folks working regular everyday jobs

[Butterscotch]

School teachers don't pursue thier paths in order to prevent being "left behind". Same can be said for nurses and other arguably blue collar jobs. There are plenty of jobs that dont pay great that still require a degree, and in many cases an advanced degree. These days a BA or BS is what graduating high school was 20 years ago. No one wants to interview you, let alone hire you, if you don't have one. Whether or not that is fair doesn't make it less of a reality.

My point is, obtaining a degree is not KUWTJ. And if you wanted to go to a trade school to learn blue collar jobs, those aren't free either.

[disneysteve]

Most people that I know who are overwhelmed by debt got that way through student loans to advance their careers

In many cases, this is absolutely "keeping up with the Joneses".
All their friends and acquaintances are running off to college, many paid by parents, many going into debt, etc., and be damned if they'll be left behind slugging it out with the blue collar folks working regular everyday jobs

Or just choose more affordable college options like the local community or state schools where you can get a 4-year degree for about the cost of 1 year at the elite private school.

[disneysteve]

My point is, obtaining a degree is not KUWTJ.

No, but doing so at the private University of Whatever where you live on campus with the unlimited meal plan is.

College doesn't have to be a $200,000 endeavor. That's the "keeping up with the Joneses" part.

[HundredK]

No, but doing so at the private University of Whatever where you live on campus with the unlimited meal plan is.

College doesn't have to be a $200,000 endeavor. That's the "keeping up with the Joneses" part.

This is an interesting point. I feel like two things should be considered when thinking about college. The first, is whether everyone really needs to go to college. There are some folks who are better suited for and happier with jobs that don't require a degree (those are getting fewer, but they're still out there), and not EVERYONE needs to go to college. The second, and more important, is what you are going to school for and whether your earnings will support the amount you're spending on college (and how your college choice might affect your earnings - my friend who went to law school at Stanford doesn't regret it for a day, because she has earned plenty of money from having that on her resume and was hired by a prestigious firm, so it proved to be well worth the investment). But if you're heading to college solely because mommy and daddy are making you go, maybe head to the JC for a couple of years first and then transfer to a state school.

I still hate the Joneses phrase, even considering this discussion.

[Fishindude77]

School teachers don't pursue thier paths in order to prevent being "left behind". Same can be said for nurses and other arguably blue collar jobs. There are plenty of jobs that dont pay great that still require a degree, and in many cases an advanced degree. These days a BA or BS is what graduating high school was 20 years ago. No one wants to interview you, let alone hire you, if you don't have one. Whether or not that is fair doesn't make it less of a reality.

My point is, obtaining a degree is not KUWTJ. And if you wanted to go to a trade school to learn blue collar jobs, those aren't free either.

This is ridiculous and this line of thinking explains why so many are burdened with student loans. I know a number of nurses that got their degrees working full time jobs while doing night classes at community colleges. Why being a teacher requires a degree, is beyond me, and why anyone would invest all of that college time & $$ for a low paying job like this is beyond me, but that's another matter.

There are tons of technical and skilled trades type professions starving for decent job applicants that don't require any degree and most of the training is on the job. Main requirements are basic math and reading skills, neat appearance, drug free and reliable.

An electrician or plumber can easily make $80K. Truck drivers can make in excess of $100K, regular old factory workers at the better places pull down in excess of $50K. But these jibs are "beneath" those hung up on the college degree and keeping up with the Jones.

[Butterscotch]

Not every community college has a nursing program. And not everyone lives near the community colleges that offer them.

You don't understand why someone needs a degree to be a teacher? In many states teachers require Masters degrees. Clearly you have little understanding or respect for education if you put down the people who not only pursue it, but the educators themselves. Why would anyone go to college for such a low paying job? Maybe that's their passion? Maybe that's their calling? Maybe people want to influence others positively, rather than, say, sitting around a personal finance website all day, ragging on people and acting smug.

[Butterscotch]

No, but doing so at the private University of Whatever where you live on campus with the unlimited meal plan is.

College doesn't have to be a $200,000 endeavor. That's the "keeping up with the Joneses" part.

Plenty of people have student loan debt that didn't come from attending an expensive private university. Going to state schools can be expensive if you're on your own without parents help. 5k a year (on the low end, not living on campus) is 20k at graduation. That's a lot of debt for someone fighting for entry level positions to have to manage.

[GoodSteward]

What I think of when I hear the phrase keeping up with the jones is a reference to overspending in general. It is just a generic phrase used to indicate that you are in a mess because you were trying to keep up with a lifestyle that you couldn't afford. This isn't the only reason why people are deep in debt, but if you are deep in debt due to spending too much on your lifestyle then yes, the phrase fits.

[disneysteve]

Plenty of people have student loan debt that didn't come from attending an expensive private university. Going to state schools can be expensive if you're on your own without parents help. 5k a year (on the low end, not living on campus) is 20k at graduation. That's a lot of debt for someone fighting for entry level positions to have to manage.

While 20K is significant, it really isn't a lot of debt for a college graduate. Stafford loans have a 10-year repayment with a current rate of 3.76%. If you take the standard repayment plan, that's about $200/month which should be plenty doable even on a typical starting salary. And of course, those payments stay the same for 10 years while your income should climb, making the payments even less of an issue. Should you be struggling for some reason, there are graduated, extended, and income-based repayment plans as well. The average new car loan is considerably higher than 20K. Which is the more sensible expense: a college degree or a shiny set of wheels?

[GoodSteward]

Which is the more sensible expense: a college degree or a shiny set of wheels?

Ooo, Shiny

[Jluke]

I get the keeping up with the jones' feeling quite often. It is definitely real.

Do I do it? Not really. We all have our "things" Some people like to vacation a lot; some people like new cars; some people want the big house.

The biggest thing is I always wonder how people are affording these things - am I doing something wrong? could I be doing something better?

A new house would be nice - but I don't want to deal with the moving part (even hiring someone) and I'd have to take out at least a 100k mortgage to do so. The only thing right now that would make me move would be for a better school district, but even then there's really not one school district that stands well above the rest.

I feel like I prevented myself from doing anything stupid with my money by paying off my mortgage and increasing my 401k so now I don't have much left over in my paychecks. Luckily I don't have that many wants either.



As for student loan debt - 20k is nothing and well worth it!

[disneysteve]

The biggest thing is I always wonder how people are affording these things - am I doing something wrong? could I be doing something better?

Great post. I'm the same way. I see people and the things they have and are doing and wonder how they are paying for it. Sometimes I have a general idea how much they earn, sometimes not.

One thing I've definitely become aware of over time is how much of a financial hindrance having a child is. We have a lot of friends, especially through our Disney community, that are constantly taking trips down there and cruises and such. It finally occurred to me one day when a bunch of us were sitting around talking that we were the only couple in the entire group who had a kid. That makes a big difference in disposable income.