student loans, degrees, and unemployement

[LivingAlmostLarge]

So we have another thread about student loan forgiveness. And we've mentioned briefly the corona virus affecting jobs. But did you read the reports that across the globe people with college degrees are less likely to be unemployed by this pandemic? That they are also more able to work from home and self-isolate?

Does this mean that college degrees are more valuable? Will this cause people to go back for degrees? Should we have some sort of system in place where everyone can go to community college for free or trade schools?

[disneysteve]

Unemployment greatly disproportionately affects those with less formal education and lower paying jobs. The stat I saw recently was that the overall current unemployment rate is 14.7% but it's 8% for those with college degrees and 21% for those without. And this current cycle isn't unusual. Those with degrees are always better positioned in a downturn.

[disneysteve]

It also isn't as easy as just telling everyone to get a degree, even if we somehow make it "free" (which is impossible of course).

As I've said, I used to work in one of the poorest cities in America. Though I no longer work there, it happens to be the location of one of the COVID testing sites we run. Several of us noticed soon after it opened that the percentage of positive tests coming from that site was far higher than from the other two sites which are in more affluent areas. Why? Because the poor are more likely to be "essential" workers. They can't work from home or self-quarantine. They're more likely to be minorities. They're more likely to have poorly controlled chronic health conditions. They're more likely to depend on public transportation. They're more likely to live in multi-generational households with numerous people in a crowded space.

You can't just suddenly put all of those people in college. First off, you'd lose all of your essential workers. As we've learned so well in recent weeks, we need those people. And not all of those people have the ability to get through a college program for various reasons. For one, the public schools in that area are awful. Those who do manage to graduate high school are ill-prepared for college. And they're poor. They need to get out into the workforce as soon as possible, usually 15 or 16, in order to help their families survive. They can't waste 4 years going to college. They're too busy working 2 or 3 jobs to get by.

Sorry for rambling. It's a complex issue with no easy fix. It would require an entire bottom to top overhaul of our entire society at every level. You're talking the stuff of sci-fi creating a utopian society.

[james.hendrickson]

It also isn't as easy as just telling everyone to get a degree, even if we somehow make it "free" (which is impossible of course).

As I've said, I used to work in one of the poorest cities in America. Though I no longer work there, it happens to be the location of one of the COVID testing sites we run. Several of us noticed soon after it opened that the percentage of positive tests coming from that site was far higher than from the other two sites which are in more affluent areas. Why? Because the poor are more likely to be "essential" workers. They can't work from home or self-quarantine. They're more likely to be minorities. They're more likely to have poorly controlled chronic health conditions. They're more likely to depend on public transportation. They're more likely to live in multi-generational households with numerous people in a crowded space.

You can't just suddenly put all of those people in college. First off, you'd lose all of your essential workers. As we've learned so well in recent weeks, we need those people. And not all of those people have the ability to get through a college program for various reasons. For one, the public schools in that area are awful. Those who do manage to graduate high school are ill-prepared for college. And they're poor. They need to get out into the workforce as soon as possible, usually 15 or 16, in order to help their families survive. They can't waste 4 years going to college. They're too busy working 2 or 3 jobs to get by.

Sorry for rambling. It's a complex issue with no easy fix. It would require an entire bottom to top overhaul of our entire society at every level. You're talking the stuff of sci-fi creating a utopian society.

Giving this one a big thumbs up for clarifying an important social issue.

[docstudent]

I grew up as one of the kids “that probably should not have gone to college”, but luckily I pivoted. Yep, I attended one of those schools...where academics were not rigorous and most teachers prepared us collectively to be essential workers. Initially, I thought that college was for “smart people” and I almost talked myself out of pursing higher education. Yes, those people do have skills and can thrive in the academic setting when proper support structures are put in place. If graduating college was just about being “smart”, then most people would not hold college degrees.

The education divide is directly correlated to everything that is wrong with our society. It’s sickening that marginalized groups are disproportionately directed into low skilled jobs because of our crumbling public school system. I believe an overhaul is needed and warranted!

[LivingAlmostLarge]

It also isn't as easy as just telling everyone to get a degree, even if we somehow make it "free" (which is impossible of course).

As I've said, I used to work in one of the poorest cities in America. Though I no longer work there, it happens to be the location of one of the COVID testing sites we run. Several of us noticed soon after it opened that the percentage of positive tests coming from that site was far higher than from the other two sites which are in more affluent areas. Why? Because the poor are more likely to be "essential" workers. They can't work from home or self-quarantine. They're more likely to be minorities. They're more likely to have poorly controlled chronic health conditions. They're more likely to depend on public transportation. They're more likely to live in multi-generational households with numerous people in a crowded space.

You can't just suddenly put all of those people in college. First off, you'd lose all of your essential workers. As we've learned so well in recent weeks, we need those people. And not all of those people have the ability to get through a college program for various reasons. For one, the public schools in that area are awful. Those who do manage to graduate high school are ill-prepared for college. And they're poor. They need to get out into the workforce as soon as possible, usually 15 or 16, in order to help their families survive. They can't waste 4 years going to college. They're too busy working 2 or 3 jobs to get by.

Sorry for rambling. It's a complex issue with no easy fix. It would require an entire bottom to top overhaul of our entire society at every level. You're talking the stuff of sci-fi creating a utopian society.

This but are they able to get into a trade or technical school to get more training and get a job that pays more? Many trades and technical jobs pay well. But I'm not familiar enough if it's an affordable program that people have time or money for. It's something like community college that maybe should be free for those who can and will make the time to go and do it.

[corn18]

We would pay for your trade training and pay you a salary while you were training. And guarantee a job when you were done training. This is for ship fitters (welders). Trades are always in demand. But they are hard work. Not sure the current generation is equipped for hard physical labor. I know they are willing to work hard. I’m not sure they are willing to physically work hard.

[bjl584]

So we have another thread about student loan forgiveness. And we've mentioned briefly the corona virus affecting jobs. But did you read the reports that across the globe people with college degrees are less likely to be unemployed by this pandemic? That they are also more able to work from home and self-isolate?

Does this mean that college degrees are more valuable? Will this cause people to go back for degrees? Should we have some sort of system in place where everyone can go to community college for free or trade schools?

This stat makes sense, since a lot of the jobs lost were in the service industry. At least initially. A lot of the trade jobs were still working as well. Not 4 year degrees, but a lot of the 2 year and under certifications. Electricians, HVAC, mechanics, were all still on the job. Lineman at utility companies were as busy as ever (I have 2 in my family.)

So, i'm not sure if people will be compelled to go get a degree now. I'm thinking that they may be more compelled to go into the trades, since it is less expensive and you will be earning a paycheck faster. But who really knows. For some, college or any formal education post high school is out of reach no matter how much they may want to go.

[Scallywag]

I know people with 4-year Bachelor's degrees that have been laid off, including people with a BSN (Bachelor's in Nursing). Yes, even medical workers have lost jobs in this pandemic. I think only those whose jobs are in front of a computer or on a computer are able to work from home. So, if you are trying to "income proof" yourself, find a job as a computer programmer, or a software quality control engineer, or even an accountant who crunches numbers on computer spreadsheets all day long. College is just a bonus, if you get one of these jobs. That's my opinion!

[Fishindude77]

If you want job security and good pay without the college expenses, become a plumber or electrician. The average age of those folks now is 55+.
One of these days soon, when your toilet doesn't flush, finding somebody to fix it is going to cost you a real premium.

Same story with most other skilled trades.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

We would pay for your trade training and pay you a salary while you were training. And guarantee a job when you were done training. This is for ship fitters (welders). Trades are always in demand. But they are hard work. Not sure the current generation is equipped for hard physical labor. I know they are willing to work hard. I’m not sure they are willing to physically work hard.

Then is it the physicality of it that is keeping people away? Do people even know about it? Why aren't more people suggested to go into trades? Why are people resistant? Is it the lack of marketing? That people are told retail or uber? Versus a very well paying trade or career?

[corn18]

Then is it the physicality of it that is keeping people away? Do people even know about it? Why aren't more people suggested to go into trades? Why are people resistant? Is it the lack of marketing? That people are told retail or uber? Versus a very well paying trade or career?

No clue.

[james.hendrickson]

Then is it the physicality of it that is keeping people away? Do people even know about it? Why aren't more people suggested to go into trades? Why are people resistant? Is it the lack of marketing? That people are told retail or uber? Versus a very well paying trade or career?

Its probably a macroeconomic shift from physical manufacturing to software/computing. Educational and social institutions have shifted to favor information technology and white collar jobs.

[disneysteve]

I know people with 4-year Bachelor's degrees that have been laid off, including people with a BSN (Bachelor's in Nursing). Yes, even medical workers have lost jobs in this pandemic.

It's true that folks with degrees haven't been completely spared, they've been affected far less. And jobs like the medical ones will be the first to get recalled when things pick back up. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the patient volume will be back to normal quickly as soon as the restrictions are lifted. Here in NJ, elective surgeries are set to resume next week. The lack of elective procedures is one of the big reasons for medical lay offs and was clearly only temporary.

Compare that to folks who work in the restaurant industry or airlines or hotels or retail. Many of those jobs won't be back for quite some time if ever.

So even with a furlough or lay off, you're probably better off if you have a degree.

[cypher1]

Then is it the physicality of it that is keeping people away? Do people even know about it? Why aren't more people suggested to go into trades? Why are people resistant? Is it the lack of marketing? That people are told retail or uber? Versus a very well paying trade or career?

I think the biggest reason is a lot of society still looks down a blue-collar type work, or consider it beneath them, or just don't want to get their hands dirty for physical work. I can think of maybe 5-6 friends and immediate family members who still do a lot of physical work, or DIY repairs. Otherwise the rest just don't care to learn and would rather pay someone else for a service.

There is a large part of me regretting not getting into trade work after HS. Even more when I became a home owner. Growing up my dad always expected I'd go into a trade given my interest in mechanics, and I have uncles that are plumber, electrician, and carpenter. However, even in the early 2000s it was very difficult to get into a program, unless you knew someone already connected. Hence all my cousins followed their dad for trade and passed it onto their families.

On the flip side, I have friend who got out of pipe fitting union due to being fed up the bureaucracy, and nepotism he experienced in his district. My brother also works in food service union at a college, and has similar experiences. They both believe the union concept is outdated. So it's far from being perfect or ideal.