student loans, degrees, and unemployement

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I think the biggest reason is a lot of society still looks down a blue-collar type work, or consider it beneath them, or just don't want to get their hands dirty for physical work. I can think of maybe 5-6 friends and immediate family members who still do a lot of physical work, or DIY repairs. Otherwise the rest just don't care to learn and would rather pay someone else for a service.

There is a large part of me regretting not getting into trade work after HS. Even more when I became a home owner. Growing up my dad always expected I'd go into a trade given my interest in mechanics, and I have uncles that are plumber, electrician, and carpenter. However, even in the early 2000s it was very difficult to get into a program, unless you knew someone already connected. Hence all my cousins followed their dad for trade and passed it onto their families.

On the flip side, I have friend who got out of pipe fitting union due to being fed up the bureaucracy, and nepotism he experienced in his district. My brother also works in food service union at a college, and has similar experiences. They both believe the union concept is outdated. So it's far from being perfect or ideal.

I heard that like how one of my clients by sheer dumb luck got "nominated" to be a longshoreman. Only way is for someone to retire and then get nominated and then compete for journeyman jobs and have enough hours to get promoted into the full union. But he's competing every 6 am for a job that DAY against others for "years" of service. But he's still ahead of people who can't even get a nomination. To make ends meet he's a bartender at night. But he's even told me it's only until he gets his bearings and makes 6 figures as a long shoreman one day soon. As soon as he gets past the entry. But his friends are all jealous he got such a cushy job. His neighbor for 30+ years was a longshoreman and had 2 girls. Neither girl nor their boyfriends wanted to. So the neighbor asked him and he said yes.

[disneysteve]

On the flip side, I have friend who got out of pipe fitting union due to being fed up the bureaucracy, and nepotism he experienced in his district. My brother also works in food service union at a college, and has similar experiences. They both believe the union concept is outdated. So it's far from being perfect or ideal.

Another problem, at least around here, is that the trades (plumbing and HVAC, electrical, etc.) have largely gone the route of a few big companies buying out all of the independent guys. We used to have a plumber/HVAC company we liked but over the years they grew and grew and became more and more corporate until even getting someone on the phone was a struggle. We had our alarm system installed by an independent guy who later sold out to one of the big companies so we went from super personal service to just being another account. It's unfortunately the same thing that has happened throughout medicine with my occupation.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

But then the trades are harder to navigate and have a solid retirement and career option wouldn't you say? Before you could get a job out of high school and have a family and provide well and then buy a home, retire all with a pension and medical etc.

[~bs]

I heard that like how one of my clients by sheer dumb luck got "nominated" to be a longshoreman. Only way is for someone to retire and then get nominated and then compete for journeyman jobs and have enough hours to get promoted into the full union. But he's competing every 6 am for a job that DAY against others for "years" of service. But he's still ahead of people who can't even get a nomination. To make ends meet he's a bartender at night. But he's even told me it's only until he gets his bearings and makes 6 figures as a long shoreman one day soon. As soon as he gets past the entry. But his friends are all jealous he got such a cushy job. His neighbor for 30+ years was a longshoreman and had 2 girls. Neither girl nor their boyfriends wanted to. So the neighbor asked him and he said yes.

Probably all longshoremen jobs aren't the same, but from what I know of it, it really isn't all that cushy or easy. It is desirable in that you can go from 0 to a 6 figured salary very quickly with little formal training, but the hours you're working to do so can be long. Back in the mid 2000sI used to work for a shipping company and was familiar with the people and the pay. The way they make a good portion of that 6 figure salary is by working weird or extended shifts, no lunch, 12 or 16 hours, holidays, weekends, etc for the higher pay differentials. Base rate back then was something like $30/hour, so if a guy worked a standard 8-5 shift, he wouldn't even come close to making 6 figures. And it's union, so seniority means every thing as far as getting the "desirable" weird shifts to make more money. Also, it is blue collar, working with heavy equipment and containers, and people do die sometimes. I personally don't think it's that great a job.

[~bs]

Another problem, at least around here, is that the trades (plumbing and HVAC, electrical, etc.) have largely gone the route of a few big companies buying out all of the independent guys. We used to have a plumber/HVAC company we liked but over the years they grew and grew and became more and more corporate until even getting someone on the phone was a struggle. We had our alarm system installed by an independent guy who later sold out to one of the big companies so we went from super personal service to just being another account. It's unfortunately the same thing that has happened throughout medicine with my occupation.

Probably really depends on your location I'm guessing, but there are competitive advantages of being a little guy. Little guys can more easily undercut the big corporations with their high rent, back office support, etc etc. Unless if part of the strategy of the big corporation is to price the smaller players out of the market, so they end up just working for a big company.

[~bs]

But then the trades are harder to navigate and have a solid retirement and career option wouldn't you say? Before you could get a job out of high school and have a family and provide well and then buy a home, retire all with a pension and medical etc.

You can still do that with trades. In fact, your career path is actually a lot easier and more straightforward. The key is making and saving as much money as possible during the good times, so you can supervise or retire and don't need to be that 60 year old electrician with a messed up back still contorting yourself into wiggle spaces running wiring. Blue collar guys also have the ability to make a lot of money doing cash jobs on the weekend to compliment their $100k/year day job. I come from a blue collar family, but went to college.

[mumof2]

It also isn't as easy as just telling everyone to get a degree, even if we somehow make it "free" (which is impossible of course).

As I've said, I used to work in one of the poorest cities in America. Though I no longer work there, it happens to be the location of one of the COVID testing sites we run. Several of us noticed soon after it opened that the percentage of positive tests coming from that site was far higher than from the other two sites which are in more affluent areas. Why? Because the poor are more likely to be "essential" workers. They can't work from home or self-quarantine. They're more likely to be minorities. They're more likely to have poorly controlled chronic health conditions. They're more likely to depend on public transportation. They're more likely to live in multi-generational households with numerous people in a crowded space.

You can't just suddenly put all of those people in college. First off, you'd lose all of your essential workers. As we've learned so well in recent weeks, we need those people. And not all of those people have the ability to get through a college program for various reasons. For one, the public schools in that area are awful. Those who do manage to graduate high school are ill-prepared for college. And they're poor. They need to get out into the workforce as soon as possible, usually 15 or 16, in order to help their families survive. They can't waste 4 years going to college. They're too busy working 2 or 3 jobs to get by.

Sorry for rambling. It's a complex issue with no easy fix. It would require an entire bottom to top overhaul of our entire society at every level. You're talking the stuff of sci-fi creating a utopian society.

completly agree its the same in our country...one thing I never understood in America is you pay the military peanuts to fight and protect your country but you pay people millions to throw a ball around the field...I find that pathetic...so I know people will disagree but its true...and even worse people get paid million to make movies..it doesn't make sense to me...ok make some dollars...but millions just isn't worth it......I don't like rich people I find them greedy...why not give back to people who have less...but many won't they want what they want and think they deserve more....and the crap that they buy for themselves and their kids are ridiculous...well my rant over...a little off topic...but the divide between rich and poor in any country is only getting worse

[LivingAlmostLarge]

completly agree its the same in our country...one thing I never understood in America is you pay the military peanuts to fight and protect your country but you pay people millions to throw a ball around the field...I find that pathetic...so I know people will disagree but its true...and even worse people get paid million to make movies..it doesn't make sense to me...ok make some dollars...but millions just isn't worth it......I don't like rich people I find them greedy...why not give back to people who have less...but many won't they want what they want and think they deserve more....and the crap that they buy for themselves and their kids are ridiculous...well my rant over...a little off topic...but the divide between rich and poor in any country is only getting worse

I don't get it either.

[~bs]

completly agree its the same in our country...one thing I never understood in America is you pay the military peanuts to fight and protect your country but you pay people millions to throw a ball around the field...I find that pathetic...so I know people will disagree but its true...and even worse people get paid million to make movies..it doesn't make sense to me...ok make some dollars...but millions just isn't worth it......I don't like rich people I find them greedy...why not give back to people who have less...but many won't they want what they want and think they deserve more....and the crap that they buy for themselves and their kids are ridiculous...well my rant over...a little off topic...but the divide between rich and poor in any country is only getting worse

The people that throw the ball around on the field are the elite of the elite. The % chance of some little leaguer making it to the big leagues is probably like hitting the lottery.

Generally big money = you have the skill or luck or whatever, that 99.999999% of people don't have. If it was that easy, everyone would do it. Any able bodied,mentally sound, and willing 18 year old kid can become a GI. Not every aspiring 18 year old kid can become a kobe bryant or a patrick mahomes.

[mumof2]

The people that throw the ball around on the field are the elite of the elite. The % chance of some little leaguer making it to the big leagues is probably like hitting the lottery.

Generally big money = you have the skill or luck or whatever, that 99.999999% of people don't have. If it was that easy, everyone would do it. Any able bodied,mentally sound, and willing 18 year old kid can become a GI. Not every aspiring 18 year old kid can become a kobe bryant or a patrick mahomes.

So that shoould make them multimillionaires?? because they have a skill...snipers have skills they aren't paid millions, many people have skills and throwing a ball in a hoop to me isn't really a skill...neither is chasing a ball down a field...sorry but I disagree sorry but protecting peoples lives and being shot at deserves to be paid more than those running around with a ball

[kork13]

So that shoould make them multimillionaires?? because they have a skill...snipers have skills they aren't paid millions, many people have skills and throwing a ball in a hoop to me isn't really a skill...neither is chasing a ball down a field...sorry but I disagree sorry but protecting peoples lives and being shot at deserves to be paid more than those running around with a ball

Snipers don't earn a company enormous profits. Football players draw in billions of dollars in ticket sales, media deals, licensing, merchandise, concessions, and so on. Just the same, a quality CEO leads a company to produce & increase enormous profits for the company well in excess of his/her compensation. Like it or not, it's that simple.

[~bs]

So that shoould make them multimillionaires?? because they have a skill...snipers have skills they aren't paid millions, many people have skills and throwing a ball in a hoop to me isn't really a skill...neither is chasing a ball down a field...sorry but I disagree sorry but protecting peoples lives and being shot at deserves to be paid more than those running around with a ball

Certain skills are worth money, others worth less money, others worth nothing at all. If you think certain people's skills are worth millions, but the rest of the world disagrees, then you should consider stepping up and paying them for their services?

[mumof2]

Certain skills are worth money, others worth less money, others worth nothing at all. If you think certain people's skills are worth millions, but the rest of the world disagrees, then you should consider stepping up and paying them for their services?

I would never pay someone to play sport...it is stupid how much they get paid....and you don't need to agree with me...thats your culture its all about sports...I don't get it and I value peoples skills more than money...money has never been high on my list for things...but you have people serve their country and then no support when they come back but yet pay millions to throw or catch a ball...I don't get it....I never will....but that my opinion and you don't have to agree

[mumof2]

Snipers don't earn a company enormous profits. Football players draw in billions of dollars in ticket sales, media deals, licensing, merchandise, concessions, and so on. Just the same, a quality CEO leads a company to produce & increase enormous profits for the company well in excess of his/her compensation. Like it or not, it's that simple.

there are a lot of companies that lose money and their CEOs still get huge bonuses just because of their title...people don't need millions of dollars to live...this is what is wrong with the world people are greedy and in countries like america and australia there shouldn't be homless people/families when you have millionaires/billionaires.....what they waste their money on is pathetic...but that is just my opinion..you don't have to agree...so I guess when all hell breaks loose and their are riots/floods etc you don't call in the football players for their skills you call in the police, emergency services etc...all the lower paid workers...

[~bs]

I would never pay someone to play sport...it is stupid how much they get paid....and you don't need to agree with me...thats your culture its all about sports...I don't get it and I value peoples skills more than money...money has never been high on my list for things...but you have people serve their country and then no support when they come back but yet pay millions to throw or catch a ball...I don't get it....I never will....but that my opinion and you don't have to agree

You're missing the point, which is precisely that other people value and spend their money the way they wish, and you do the same. Just because you don't think it's a good use of resources doesn't make it a fact.