Smoking the budget away

[bennkar]

Divorce lawyer <== pronto. Make that lawyerS. You think you have expenses now, divorce & bankruptcy will be cheaper than staying in that house long term. I said it before, your wife is playing you every which way, and will just keep it up. And your daughter won't stop unless she sees your serious, which will only be once a divorce is started. I have to admit, I was intrigued reading this from the beginning, but its gotten beyond gruesome now - I don't think I will be able to read more of this. Dude, if you can't save your daughter, at least save yourself. There's really nothing more anyone can say at this point.

[bsmith]

Divorce is never a good answer. Too much subsequent pain, mental as well as financial.
Make the marriage work. Live with the smoking. Who knows, it just might go away in time. That does happen, but it won’t if you harp on it constantly to both participants. Try some family therapy. The three of you together in the same room. Many therapists can be of great help and
some have sliding payment scales. All good wishes.

[Mitch71]

As awful as everything has been, and as helpful as everyone's comments have been, I find myself agreeing with bsmith's last post. A divorce under these circumstances, with my wife being an unrepenant chain smoker, and apparently now, my daughter too, its still just not my first option, as I fear it would only make the financial situation worse and that it might make the emotional situation even worse than it already is. Even if I was "successful" in winning more custody than my wife, I still think its somewhere where winning isnt entirely possible, and the scorched earth that may be left behind after a divorce may be worse than trying to fight this out.

Maybe thats just the reticent 'adult child of divorced parents' in me speaking, but I know alot of people in my generation who have the view that while divorces may be easier psychologically to swallow for some, especially adults whove been through them before: a) it isnt always financially better, and may be financially alot worse b) it isnt usually better for the kids, unless there was explicit criminal activity going on. Im furious about my daughter's smoking, and Im sad, and I dont know what to do - but I dont think a divorce is going to fix it.

As twisted as everything keeps getting, I think therapy has to be the first step, and I told my wife this yesterday after a disasterous 4th of July get-together. Even though I had a sit down talk with my daughter about why she needed to quit smoking over two weeks ago, and saying that I would have to ground her if I caught her smoking, it was clear to me that it had little effect on detering her behavior and she kept on smoking everyday as far as I can tell, just not directly in front of me. Despite cautions from my wife about taking it easy on her, and not blowing up on her since it was common for girls her age to try smoking, etc - I continued to boil and simmer over how to handle this, because I just refused to openly acknowledge that it was acceptable for my daughter to be a smoker. Then at yesterdays 4th of July get together/block party, I see my daughter and her friend off hanging out with her friends's older sister, and a few older girls who were friends of the older sister, all high school aged, hanging around in the back yard, over around the side of the house. At firstI couldnt smell any distinct cigarette smoke, since there were several other adults smoking cigarettes outside at the same time, including my wife, so I thought nothing of it, since its common for teenagers and pre-teens to isolate themselves at social events sometimes. Then later that afternoon, although she was partially hidden by a bush around the side of the house, I could clearly see my daughter with a lit cigarette in her hand smoking. I was both furious and heartbroken at the same time and I walked right over there, into the middle of the group of teens and pre-teens, and told my daughter that she did not need to be smoking, and that it was time for us to leave the 4th of july party right away.

She looked shameful,and embarassed, and reluctantly dropped her cigarette onto the grass and began to follow me back to the car. About the time we had made it around the side of the house and out to the car, my wife, cigarette still in hand, can of beer in the other, came running up to the car and asked where I was going. I told her that I had seen our daughter, with a cigarette in her hand, smoking in public, around the side of the house at the party, and that I had told her before that she would be grounded if I ever caught her smoking. I couldnt tell for sure if I thought my daughter was looking to my wife for support or approval, or if my wife was just suprised that my daughter had actually been caught or that I might try to take a stand as a dad, but I could tell they were both giving each other confused glances for a moment. Unsure what they might be thinking, I interrupted, addressing my wife, and told her that while she and I could discuss what the appropriate punishment should be later, as I understood we may have some different views on the matter; that surely she would agree that it was appropriate for me to remove our daughter from the party where I caughter her smoking in public in front of me. I also argued that if for nothing else, besides our daughters own health, then for the sake of consistency, I needed to do this, since so I would not be going back on my own word and did not undermine my authority as a parent. I could tell for a moment my wife wanted to lash out something acidic, but she held her tounge, then began to say something, then stopped and waited, and after a pause said that this one time I was right, but that she and I would have to discuss the matter further. My wife said that she would go back to the party, and that I should just drop our daughter off at home then come back for her, which sounded fine to me.

On the way back home, I was quiet for a long time, but everytime I breathed through my nose I couldnt help but clearly detect the lingering smell of smoke on my daughter. I looked at her, thinking that to my eyes she still looked only 12, soon to be 13, although she maybe tried to dress slightly older, with sporty tank top, short shorts and keds without socks; she seemed like she wanted so badly to be like the older girls. She wasnt crying or upset, she just seemed mad, and distant. I told her she knew that I disapproved of her smoking and that I was very disappointed, then I breifly held myself back from launching into a parenting tirade on the evils of smoking. I told her she knew it was bad for her, and she knew she needed to stop, and that it was unacceptable for her to continue to smoke. She listened to me stone faced for the rest of the drive home without a word. I dropped her off at the house, and waited for her to go inside before leaving and returning to the party. Only then on my way back did it occur to me, that with her home alone, there was no one to prevent her from smoking there by herself.

The uncomfortable fact that I probably couldnt really stop my daughter from smoking when I wasnt home, which was nearly all of the time, began to sink deeper into my head while I drove back. When I went back to the party, my wife was of course still smoking, and was begining to drift towards being more than a little tipsy. I couldnt help but notice that a few of the teen girls were still around the side of the house smoking when I got back, so I stayed and visited with some of the party folks until it was time to wrap it up and head back. To that point, neither my wife nor I had spoken about the issue with our daughters smoking, that is until we got in the car. I made the mistake of speaking first and said that I had been thinking on the way back about how hard it was to actually stop our daughter from smoking, if neither of us were there to stop her. Im not sure that I meant to imply anything by that, just the way it came out, but my wife took it and built on it. She said that was what she was trying to tell me all along, that once our daughter had decided to start smoking, which she clearly had already, then there wasnt much we could do to prevent her from smoking. I told her that I disagreed, that there was alot we could do, like not buy her cigarettes, not allow it at the house, not allow her to smoke in front of us, to say nothing of grounding her, or taking her to a treatment center. My wife reitereated her point, that she wasnt directly giving our daughter cigarettes, and pointed out that I had clearly just seen her smoking in public with other girls around her age, and that no matter how many times I tried to ground her, or punish her, or withhold her privilidges, it wouldnt change the fact that her frinds were smokers, which more or less meant that she too would be a smoker. I pushed back that this didnt have to be the case, and that while maybe that might be the case for someone who was 16 or 17, like some of those girls were, that was very different than our daughter who was not quite 13. My wife pointed out that only one of those teen girls was 16, and that one was 15, one 14, then our daughters friend who was 13, and our daughter who turns 13 this summer - then my wife drifted into one of her more lucid, credible argumentative states and pointed out that she recognized that she and I had different views about teen smoking, me thinking it was the worst thing ever, and her thinking it was regrettable but perhaps sometimes unavoidable, which may have been an understatement. However, she went on to argue that what I really needed to keep in mind is that I needed to save my energy and discipline for the big fights, over things like drugs, or sex, or other things, like that. Her logic sounded appealing, even though I disagreed with it, but it reminded me of the sharp, critical mind that my wife had once had before she lost her previous job. And even though I disagreed with her, I wanted to listen to what she had to say.

I told her that I thought we needed to hold the line on smoking or risk losing the whole ship - and made the gateway drug argument that Id heard before. My wife laughed so hard she almost choked on the smoke from the new cigarette she was lighting while I was driving home, and said that I had to be kidding her with the "gateway drug" argument; when I told her that I was in fact serious. Then she asked me why did neither she nor I ever end up doing cocaine or heroine or other hard core drugs, if I had once been a smoker and my wife was still a smoker. I told her that obviously it was because other things had detered us from trying them, fear of legal consequences, fear of severe addiction, etc, and my wife pointed out that those same concerns would likely work with out daughter too. Then she said that even if they didnt, that I needed to be willing to compromise some, at least on certian issues, to preserve my capital for the big fights that lay ahead. I again told her that I could just never allow her to smoke in public, right in front of me, as a teenager, nor could I ever buy her cigarettes, or anything of the sort. My wife said that she thought those were very reasonable and acceptable limitations - and that I could and should enforce those, but realize the limits of my enforcement, and not try to regulate every minute of every hour and realize that as she grows up, I might not be able to stop her from having another cigarette with a friend someday after school while Im still at work. I pushed back and said that I could never say that I allowed that, and that I had to oppose allowing that behavior, and she said she understood, but that She said that she would back me on those two issues and we could have a unitied front where my daughter understands Im not buying her cigarettes and she cannot smoke in front of me. I wanted to add or anyone else, and that she needed to quit altogether - but my wife said that I needed to recognize the nature of both the social and chemical nicotine addiction, and that if I was serious about trying to work through these issues with my daughter, that we might need to explore therapy options.

I seized upon the idea, and although Im not wild about the prospect of not being as strict on my daughters smoking as absolutely possible, I understand that if some temporary compromise is necessary to get everyone to the table with regards to therapy and treatment, then that may be the best solution to get through this morass.

Either way, Ive priced it out, and even as expensive as many family counselors and therapists can be, it still pales in comparison to the costs of most divorce lawyers, and the long term financial consequences that could result from that. I dont know that a therapist will ever get either my wife or my daughter to quit smoking, but I feel like I have to try something and not just throw the towel in on them and my whole marriage. I realize it may be a long time and take alot of therapy before my wife and I work through everything, and that it may be alot longer time before my wife or our daughter are ever able to try to quit smoking, and that at least for my wife, it may be that she might never be able to quit her smoking completely, which in turn leaves me less hopeful for my daughters prospects as well. But by God, I have to try something! But when my wife finally mentions something about therapy, I cant just give into my own weakness and throw my hands up and say that all I have left is a divorce. If we cant find a way to work through this, then one day it may come to that, although I will try my hardest to avoid that as long as possible.

[snafu]

It would be wonderful if wife and daughter were willing to go to therapy with a positive attitude...but don't believe it's a done deal. The information you have offered about your wife leads me to conclude she is very manipulative and will say and do whatever is necessary to get the results she desires. I would have pulled over to the side of the road until she stopped smoking on the drive home. Teenagers catch on fast and enjoy playing parents off each other...you know that. Forbid smoking in the house or car. Any time you catch them smoking, mist with room spray. The point to make is that they stink! The red herrings are just that. Try a few of your own like the description of lung disease, emphysema where damaged lungs prevent your wife from catching her breath. Perhaps you could talk about the details of cancer treatment. It's extremely expensive and as soon as you've used up the value of your health insurance...you're deemed cured. Steel yourself to the idea that you will be burying your wife and daughter. Ask your wife to draw up a list of who to notify etc. Ask her to write up her own obituary when ever she drops any excuses. While I sound harsh, my point is to try and save their lives and your own which can result from second hand smoke.

[DebbieL]

Divorce is never a good answer. Too much subsequent pain, mental as well as financial.
Make the marriage work. Live with the smoking. Who knows, it just might go away in time. That does happen, but it won’t if you harp on it constantly to both participants. Try some family therapy. The three of you together in the same room. Many therapists can be of great help and
some have sliding payment scales. All good wishes.

That's total BS. Divorce is sometimes the ONLY answer (and I think this is one of those cases).

[bennkar]

That's total BS. Divorce is sometimes the ONLY answer (and I think this is one of those cases).

I couldn't get through the wall of text in the last post from the original poster, but I have to agree with this message. Previously it sounded like he wanted to know what to do, now it is justifying his bad decisions (sad to say). Some people have the courage to go through divorce when its the ONLY choice. Rationalizing other choices isn't making it the right choice no matter how much you write. Sad but true.

[carolan]

If I were you I would treat the 2 issues separately. She willl only stop smoking when she is ready. I made my husband smoke in the garage and he never quit. I never smoked and my husband never smoked in front of the children and yet they both smoke. I tried threats with the kids and that didn't work and they will only quit when they are ready. Axctually, one is trying as we speak. You can't live your life for others, they need to take responsibility for their actions.

As far as the household budget is concerned, don't tie smoking in with that. I'm sure she could point to things you spend money on that impact the budget. Just sit together and look at everything and try and find ways to cut back. Putting pressure on her to stop smoking becasue of the financial situation will only make her feel more pressure and want to smoke more.

[MarshaB]

Our son started smoking when he was about 14 o 15. We didn’t like one bit and tried like crazy to get him to stop. That only made things worse. When he got to high school, he wanted to play on the baseball team and we encouraged him to do so. The coach found out he smoked and said he wouldn’t be able stay on the team if he smoked. Our son quit smoking then and there. He started up again when he was a freshman in college, but that lasted only a month or so. None of his new friends smoked so he decided he didn’t want to either. He also joined a student group that met weekly at a church and that pushed him away from smoking as well. My suggestion is for you to permit your daughter to smoke. You are killing yourself trying to make her quit. Encourage her to get involved with school sports team or a club or student government or something like that. If she is just hanging around with kids who smoke and no activities she will probably not stop at all.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

My, god, she is only 12 years old and there is any question at all as to whether to allow her to smoke?!

I sit her reading this story, thinking of my own severely addicted mother who blames herself that my older sister became a smoker, too. I saw my sister take up smoking secretly at age 14. My mother was a horrendous smoker, and forever trying to quit. But no way did she think she should just let my sister's smoking go, with the excuse that her own credibility and energy on big issues was limited and there would certainly be bigger dangers to save her energy for. No, Mom did her best to stop my sister. She was effective at slowing down my sister, thank goodness. (My sister did become a full blown smoker later, after she left the childhood home. )

I think there is something wrong with your wife's thinking. Your daughter is so young and your wife just wants to roll over and say her smoking is not such a big deal!?

And what is going on with those other parents of 14, 15, 16 year olds who had a cigarette supply and were smoking at a family party?! Don't they pay attention to their kids? Don't they care? Aren't they willing to put the energy and effort into their kids? Are you involved in a circle of friends who have already given up on their children? Don't let that affect your own thinking.

[Mitch71]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, and I apologize for the different trajectory that this post has taken, but I am very concerned about my daughters smoking, as well as my wifes, and Ive gotten alot of helpful observations.

Alot of this started off with me flipping out about how much my chain-smoking wife's cigarettes were costing, and how it was overstreaching the budget. I tried to pressure her and leverage both health and financial concerns with my wife over and over, but in the end, she was far too addicted to really quit - but at least she mustered the will get a part time job to help pay for her cigarettes and also help make some progress paying down credit card debt as well.

While being hopeful that my wife may be able to quit smoking, I agree with the observations from the other posters who said that its not likely that I can persuade her to quit. Pictures of black lungs, spraying room freshner everywhere, making exaggerated coughing noises, etc doesnt seem to do the trick, and no ammount of pleading on my part could persuade her. Perhaps Ive just been too permissive all along for years and years, never protesting when my wife smoked in the car, or living room or bedroom, or anywhere else really, even when I was trying to quit myself. My wife and I were both smokers when we met and fell in love, and even though Ive long since quit, and she has changed some over time and become more severely depressed about her virtual unemployment this past year or so - deep down, I still love her and would never divorce her just because she cant quit smoking.

The issue with my daughters smoking is seperate to me, and try as I may, I dont see how a divorce would help that.
Yes, In the course of me dealing with my wife's smoking, is when I first realized that my daughter, who turns 13 soon, had started smoking without me knowing, aparently some time ago. I felt bad in part because I guess I had been working so many overtime hours, so many nights and weekends, that I somehow had missed that my daughter, who is still in middle school, had become a smoker. Ive gone round and round about whether my wife was either implicitly or explicitly encouraging or allowing our daughter to smoke - especially in light of my wife's much more permissive view of teenage smoking - and I have clashed and argued several times with my wife over the issue, with me being much more staunchly opposed to allowing our daughter to smoke.

These fights have not been pretty. But the sad fact occurs to me that no matter how many times I scold my daughter about smoking, it seems to make no difference, and it is clear that my daughter has continued to smoke regardless of my opposition. I have threatened to take her cell phone away, and to take her computer away for the rest of the summer - but it still did not stop her. I tried to blame it on my wife, and point the finger at her, as though my wife's smoking was somehow the only thing that could make our daughter want to smoke - only to come to learn this past week, quite uncomfortably, that there were in fact friends of my daughter, and other girls close in age, who she was also smoking with.

After seeing my daughter so brazenly smoking in public (semi-private, around the side of the house) I was incensed - as any father should be - but the more I thought about trying to "stop the source" of the cigarettes, the more I realized what a hopeless cause that probably was. Age restrictions asside, they are afterall still a legal product. Maybe shes getting them from her friends, or her friends older sisters (my guess). Maybe shes stealing packs from her mother (not sure, since it seems they were different brands). Maybe shes ordering them online or knows a store where she or and older friend can buy them. Who knows. All I know is that when I was an underaged teenage smoker myself many years ago, my parents never bought cigarettes for me, but that never stopped me from getting cigarettes when I was underaged, so why should I expect that it would stop my daughter?.

But after seeing my daughter smoking with friends - the more I thought about it, the proof was as plain as could be, that I cant solely blame my wife for my daughters smoking. That doesnt mean my wife's smoking may not in some way be passively contributing to my daughters desire to smoke - but I suspect that her friends may have alot more influence. Thats to say nothing of all the influence from smoking in the movies and tv shows that she watches. Lastly, I have to remind myself that even though my daughter is young, she herself has to bear some part of the blame for her own decision to smoke. Some people would say that since she is not quite 13, that she is not responsible for her own actions since she is too young to grasp their full ramifications, which I understand, but I still dont see how it absolves her of any hand in the decision making as to whether or not she decides to continue to smoke. Given that it is quite obvious to me that she is still smoking on a daily basis, and has been for some time, it is clear that my daughter has made her decision to become a smoker regardless of what I think.

After dealing with this issue for just a few months, I am starting to see where some former parents are coming from. It seems like she is just going to keep on smoking regardless of whether or not I tell her no. Whats most concerning from what little I can tell is that she seems to be regularly smoking more and more cigarettes throughout each day, and her addictive personality in that regard is eerily similar to her mother, causing me to fear that she may one day become a chain smoker too. Im sure shes no where near as bad as her mother is yet, and I keep hoping that she is still smoking less than a half-a-pack a day, but with little else to do all day during the summer but sneak out and smoke throuhout the day, I wouldnt be suprised to find out that she is smoking at least a pack a day if not more, especially since she obviously has no problems finding cigarettes. The fact that she smells strongly of smoke every single day now, as does her room, every morning and every night, and that lately Ive been noticing more of what I swear sounds like an early smokers cough is driving me up the wall. But I feel powerless. Not only can I not stop her from smoking during the 12+ hours Im away from the house nearly every day, Im not that sure I could enforce most of my serious groundings even if I wanted to. I could try to ground her from tv, but I cant exactly stop her from watching it while Im not there. I could try to ground her from the computer/internet, but again, its not like I could stop her from doing that while Im not there. Although I suppose I could lockout her password on the family computer, but it still wouldnt stop her from using a friends computer. I could ban her from going over to friends houses or having them over, but again, how effectively can I stop her from seeing friends when Im not there. Moreover, if I banned her from seeing all her friends, then she might only rebel that much harder. I suppose I could also try to ban her from her cell phone, perhaps confiscate it, but then I wouldnt have any way to get in touch with her if I needed to in case of emergency. So many problems with these disciplinary measures, its hard to know if any of them would really work.

All of that is to say nothing of the likely harsh repulse I might get back from my wife on these measures as being overly draconian, but the more I think about it, the more I doubt how effective these disciplinary measures would actually be.

Id love to find a way to change out my daughters friends - to kids who werent trying smoking - but its hard to control who your kid is friends with. And as for her friends parents, yes, alot of them are in fact smokers themselves, and as bizzare as it sounds to me, apparently alot of them have similarly permissive views as some of the posters on here, maybe even as liberal about it as my wife. Maybe some of the ones who are smokers just dont care about their teenagers smoking, or just dont want to make an issue of it themselves, I dont know. They seem like ok parents in most other respects, but I guess I didnt know them as well since Im rarely at those social functions due to working all the time. I imagine that some of these parents may have fussed at their kids too, even if they were sneaking around the side of the house smoking at a party, but Im not really sure that its going to stop their kids or my daughter from continuing to smoke.

I do really like that activities idea, and I may well try that out in the hope of an end run around, but I just dont know how successful that will really be, since our daughter isnt very athletic or even particularly social. Shes taking dance right now, which we thought would work for her since she has such a slender build, but she has asthma and constantly gets winded, so she wants to quit. Shes always made pretty good grades in school so we havent tried to make it into a big issue, but she never joined any middle school clubs. Honestly, she hasnt been overly social until just this past year or so, so Id hate to try and divide her from her friend group just because some of their parents are smokers or the kids may have tried smoking, especially when shes just now starting to become more social, but perhaps thats the best option. The problem is thought, that since she has already decided to be a smoker and identified herself with smoking, despite my opposition, unless she finds some team or group or friends that make her not want to be a smoker, I dont see how else I can persuade her quit smoking.

Thats where I am I guess - I absolutely hate the fact that my daughter is a smoker, and it drives me crazy to think that shes probably smoking a cigarette right now and there doesnt seem to be anything I can really do about it. I guess Im just at a loss for what else to do.

[achantforwinter]

Does she have any income of her own? I know this sounds terrible, but if it is costing you too much and putting financial hardship on you and your family CUT HER OFF. Don't give her cash. If she needs gas for the car, give her a gas card that can only be used on gas. If she wants to go shopping, give her gift cards to places that do not sell cigarettess. Etc. Etc.

[scot184]

I think exercise is the best way to drop a bad habit...get out and walk, run, bike, swim, anything!

[MarshaB]

Well there seems to be some peace at your house. Glad to hear of that. I probably would have come down harder with more rules. Easy for me to say since I don;t live there. What about making her work to save up for her smokes? You wife does that so why can't your daughter do it?
Sounds like she is getting them free from someone.

[bsmith]

It seems clear that you and your family need to meet together and regularly with an unbiased, skilled therapist. Someone who doesn't know any of you but is willing to listen and then make educated responses and offer well-informed solutions.

[green_goblin12]

She has asthma? Tell her that down the road, smoking will cause her to have what feels like an asthma attack 24/7.