Should struggling families tithe?

[bjl584]

I would caution against a blanket assumption that a 10% difference to someone's income is insignificant. It could mean the difference between keeping the house and living on the street. In theory, someone could be living below their means, living in a reasonable house, driving an older car, etc, etc. Everything is fine. The tithe check gets written every month, and all the bills are paid. Then they lose their job and pick up a minimum wage job just to get by during tough times. Then they have a car accident and lose the car and end up with $100,000 in medical bills since they no longer have insurance. Now all of a sudden that extra 10% in the paycheck could come in very handy.

My point is, I think that one should provide for their family first. They brought them into existance. So, take care of them. When times are tough, and bad things happen, then the 10% that was the tithe needs to be stopped until things are made right in your household, there is food on the table, and the heater is blowing warm air. I don't see any reason why suspending your tithe for a time period is a bad thing. If I ever met someone that told me that they could have kept the house but they decided to tithe instead, and now he and the wife and kids are eating out of that dumpster over there; I would tell him that his priorities are out of whack.

[jpg7n16]

144 minutes? The square root of which is 12. 12 disciples. It's a sign in numbers. Sorry to go rainman.

lol hahaha nice

[elessar78]

I wonder how the world would change if we gave 2.4 hours a day to God.

144 minutes? The square root of which is 12. 12 disciples. It's a sign in numbers. Sorry to go rainman.

[jpg7n16]

That said, I also don't think people should have to live like paupers in order to keep sending 10% to the church. There has to be a happy medium. The question is where do you draw the line?

See I just really don't like this sentiment. As though, paying a tithe means you'll be poor forever. But "giving sacrificially" means you're doing well with your money. Which if 10% makes you poor, how does 25% mean you're doing well?

If you make $60,000 a year, you can afford $1400/month for housing. If you tithe, that reduces your income to $54,000; and thus you can afford $1260/month for housing. Now how big of a difference is there between $1400 and $1260?

It means you can afford a $235k house, instead of a $260k home. Not that big of a difference.

If they lost that $60k job, and took a $50k one in the meantime, they still couldn't afford the house - even if they stopped tithing! But they'd try and stretch the income to make it work, so they didn't have to give up that lifestyle. And usually, they'd blame the tithe, or taxes, or something else as the reason why things were so tight. When their budget is the real issue.

Or would you say that they should "give sacrificially" at say 5%. What sacrifice?? They didn't give up anything. They kept their expensive home. Expensive car. Kept eating out. The only thing they sacrificed on, was their giving.

For someone who is low income already, things are tight as is. The tithe doesn't make them a "pauper." Instead of making 24,000, they're making 21,600. Things were going to be tight anyways. But there is minimal difference in the lifestyle you'll be able to live.



Can you give me an example, where the income itself is good enough to live well, but tithing turns them into "paupers?"

[GaryArnold]

Some people just don't get it.

The tithe was NEVER on anyone's income. It came from the miracles of God - crops and animals which are assets. The farmers did have INCOME from the sale of the crops, but that income was NOT tithed on.

Wage earners did NOT tithe. The farm workers did NOT tithe (except for the land owners). Carpenters did NOT tithe. Fishermen did NOT tithe. Tent makers did NOT tithe.

Many say that in Biblical times they didn’t have money and that the economy was based on bartering of goods and services. That is not so. The Bible shows they not only had money, but that money was used as a common way of doing business.

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

Here are just a few examples from The Word to show they did, in fact, use money in Biblical times.

The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals (Deuteronomy 14:24-26).

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY ABRAHAM - Genesis 23:15-16

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY JACOB - Genesis 33:19

JOSEPH WAS SOLD TO THE ISHMEELITES - Genesis 37:28

A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE - Exodus 30:14-16,

USING SHEKEL OF SILVER TO VALUE A RAM - Leviticus 5:15

THE FOLLOWING VERSES REFER TO WAGES: Genesis 29:15, Genesis 30:28, Genesis 31:7-8, Genesis 31:41, Exodus 2:9, Leviticus 19:13, Malachi 3:5, etc.

THEY HAD A MONEY STANDARD

There are several places in Scripture indicating that scales were used to weigh metals and other items. The Law of Moses, for example, commands Jews not to use dishonest standards, but instead, to use honest scales and honest weights. (See also Deut. 25:13-15; Job 6:2-3; 31:6; Psa. 62:9; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:10, 23; Isa. 40:12; 46:6; and Jer. 32:10).

Leviticus 19:35-36 – Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

In order for money to be an exchangeable equivalent for other commodities in today’s society, there must be a standard in place. Likewise, the Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. A reference to a pre-law standard is here in Genesis 23:16.

Merchants in biblical times traveled from place to place conducting business. According to the written law, the standard weight for metals was set according to the sanctuary shekel (See also Ex 30:13, 24; 38:24-26; Lev. 5:15; Num. 7:13-86; 18:16).

Leviticus 27:25 – Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, …

In addition, 2 Samuel 14:26 shows that the weight standard for the shekel was set by the royal standard. No matter which era in history is studied, there existed a standard for the weight of precious metals.

Money was also used throughout the law. For example, God’s people gave money to support the tabernacle (Ex. 30:14-16; 38:24-31). There are many other examples that illustrate money’s place within the written law and indicate that money was indeed a part of everyday life. Exodus 35 provides such an example.

Exodus 35:5, 21-22 – From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze;

And there are many more examples to show that money was used for everyday transactions well before the Levitical tithe.

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it.

HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THAT WITH CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE PAYMENT OR RENT, INCOME TAXES, PROPERTY TAXES, SALES TAXES, ETC?

There is no way to justify making some “principle” out of the Biblical facts and then apply it to Christians today. It is just flat out wrong and makes no sense at all.

[disneysteve]

IMO - a father who would rather not tithe than admit his family is living beyond their means is sorely mistaken as well.

If you know how to budget based on $5000 a month, you should be able to budget based on $4500. And if your house is too expensive, you should move.

Or maybe they'd rather spend $700 a month on food, and not tithe because it's too hard to make ends meet.

Or maybe they used to make $80,000 a year, and now find their income reduced to $60,000, but are unwilling to change their lifestyle, so they cut back on tithe to make their lifestyle numbers work.

I generally agree but probably not to the full extent that you believe. I don't think, as a general rule, that people should cut out charitable giving in order to pay for a bunch of luxuries and high end lifestyle. That said, I also don't think people should have to live like paupers in order to keep sending 10% to the church. There has to be a happy medium. The question is where do you draw the line?

[jpg7n16]

All THREE tithes have a DIFFERENT definition and DIFFERENT purposes and rules.

First Tithe - Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:
A tenth of crops AND animals, and must be taken to the Levites to go into the Levitical cities (not to the Temple) for their support. The Levites then take a tenth of the tithe to the priests at the Temple.

Only says that the tithe is holy (aka 'set apart') for God.

Second Tithe - Deuteronomy 14:22-27:
A tenth of crops ONLY. Add to that the FIRSTBORN animals, not a tenth. Use for the yearly festival/feast by family plus the poor and the Levites.

Which I quoted above...

Says a tithe of crops, wine, oil, and the firstborn of the flock - which hints at an offering of animals as well.

Note vs 24-25 says that if you can't bring the tithe that far, to convert it to money, and give the money instead.

Third Tithe - Deuteronomy 14:28-29:
A tenth of crops ONLY. Animals are not mentioned in the scriptures for this tithe. This tithe to be kept at home. Invite the Levites, stranger, widows, orphans, etc. to eat.

Three different definitions. Three different purposes.

3 not so different definitions. Three different purposes. 2 different timings.

How do you know that this doesn't instruct them to take the tithe that would have gone to the temple in year 3, but instead keep it at home? Because if the tithe from vs 27 was for the Levite, why does vs 29 say the Levite has no inheritance and must participate in receiving this '2nd' tithe? Why can't they just be supported by the other tithe if they are different?

But if there was only 1 tithe, which was kept locally once every 3 years, it would make sense to include the Levites (who usually received the tithes, but would have nothing this year).

Leviticus 25:3-7 – The seven-year sabbath for the land which means NO tithing in the seventh year.

Convenient how when there was no income, no tithe was required huh? 10% of 0 is 0.

Now how can anyone say they are paying the Biblical tithe today?

Pretty easily.

We don't grow crops. We are not an agrarian society. So how can we honor God with our crops that we didn't grow? (Prov 3:9) The first part of Prov 3:9 says, "honor the Lord with your wealth."

So since we don't grow crops, our income isn't from the ground; it's from a paycheck. So I believe I should honor Him from that 'increase.' From how I understand the Scriptures, 10% was required. So that's the minimum I give. (above and beyond that is a personal matter)

--------------------------------------
These are my personal beliefs. I get that. That's why I said that in post #1. I've shown my reasons. I think everyone reading this knows where I stand - and that I don't expect everyone else to believe the same way I do. And I think many of you disagree with me - and that's fine.

But if this thread gets people to think about why they do or do not tithe, and come to a more informed decision having seen both sides, I think people would be better off. If they choose to tithe, that's between them and God. If they choose not to, that's between them and God.

That's the main thing I hope will come about because of this thread.

[GaryArnold]

Robbing God

Let’s look at Malachi 3. First, who is God speaking to – the priests or the people?
We need to study the entire Book of Malachi rather than take a few verses out of context.

By the time we get to verse 6 in chapter 1, we see it is the priests that are being addressed at that point.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3 continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to judgment….." In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8. But that's not all.

Read Numbers 18:29-30 and then read Malachi 1:14. Those verses explain robbing God of the offerings. The PRIESTS, not the people, robbed God of the offering by giving to God the worst instead of the best.

In Nehemiah 13 we are told that the priests stole the Levites portion of the tithe; therefore, they had no food to eat at the temple, and they went back to their own fields.

Therefore, taking the Levites portion of the tithe is the robbing God of the tithe. Or to put it another way, THE LEVITES WERE ROBBED. God said He was robbed because the tithe was not taken where God directed.

Next, in Malachi 3:10 God says to bring all the tithes to the storehouse. The people took the tithes to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities, not to the temple. The Levites took the required tithe of the tithe to the temple. (See Nehemiah 10:37-38) Only those tithes ever made it to the temple. The priests then took those tithes to the storehouse. It only makes sense if God is speaking to the priests in this verse.

Since in Numbers 18 God makes it perfectly clear that the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, anyone who takes God’s tithe to their local church must also be robbing God since the Levites are not the ones getting it.

I see no way around this. Either the tithe ended per Hebrews 7:18, OR those who take God’s tithe to their local church must be robbing God since God gave clear instructions where to take His tithe. There is nothing in God’s Word to show that God ever changed those instructions. Therefore, the only conclusion I can reach is that taking a tithe to your local church is NOT paying the tithe to God. It is giving it to man. Nowhere in God’s Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

Therefore, IT IS A SIN AGAINST GOD to take God’s tithe to your local church. IT IS A SIN for any pastor to accept God’s tithe.

[GaryArnold]

Three Tithes

All THREE tithes have a DIFFERENT definition and DIFFERENT purposes and rules.

First Tithe - Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:
A tenth of crops AND animals, and must be taken to the Levites to go into the Levitical cities (not to the Temple) for their support. The Levites then take a tenth of the tithe to the priests at the Temple.

Second Tithe - Deuteronomy 14:22-27:
A tenth of crops ONLY. Add to that the FIRSTBORN animals, not a tenth. Use for the yearly festival/feast by family plus the poor and the Levites.

Third Tithe - Deuteronomy 14:28-29:
A tenth of crops ONLY. Animals are not mentioned in the scriptures for this tithe. This tithe to be kept at home. Invite the Levites, stranger, widows, orphans, etc. to eat.

Three different definitions. Three different purposes.

Leviticus 25:3-7 – The seven-year sabbath for the land which means NO tithing in the seventh year.

Now how can anyone say they are paying the Biblical tithe today? All it would take is a few minutes of your time to research the history of tithing in the Christian Church to find that absolutey NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH taught and collected a tithe on anyone's income until around 1870. Research tithing for your own denomination and you will probably become angry with what you find.

[jpg7n16]

I do not portend to know what God wants. I cannot understand His reality.

But you can through the Bible.

Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions.
Malachi 3:8

Do you people really believe that we honor God, by offering monies to Him?

Yes.

Monies are valuable to us, not to Him.

It's not just about the money.

But, IMO, any father (or head-of-family) who would rather idealistically tithe to the Church, when his families' very roof over their heads stands to be lost, is IMO sorely mistaken as to his priorities. I would not choose to "give" to such a person.

IMO - a father who would rather not tithe than admit his family is living beyond their means is sorely mistaken as well.

If you know how to budget based on $5000 a month, you should be able to budget based on $4500. And if your house is too expensive, you should move.

Or maybe they'd rather spend $700 a month on food, and not tithe because it's too hard to make ends meet.

Or maybe they used to make $80,000 a year, and now find their income reduced to $60,000, but are unwilling to change their lifestyle, so they cut back on tithe to make their lifestyle numbers work.


If a person is truly unemployed, they have no income, so have nothing to tithe - so they'd never have to worry about paying a tithe rather than feeding their family. If you're living off savings, you have no tithe burden at all - so there would never be a "house or tithe" dilemma.

In fact, I can't think of a scenario when, with proper budgeting, it should ever come to "if I tithe my family can't eat." That's not the tithe's fault, it's the family's poor budgeting.

[jpg7n16]

It has been many years for me since Sunday school, but wasn't there something along the lines of "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

Based on this, are your Visa bill and Wells Fargo mortgage God's or Caesars? If you get to the point where it is either tithe or pay your mortgage, wouldn't it be against God's will to not render unto Wells Fargo that which is Wells Fargo's?

Just curious how this fits in.

That's not what Jesus meant (or at least I don't think so)

He was being asked about paying taxes to a corrupt government. As the crowd wanted to trick him into saying either, "no, don't support Rome" which would have been treasonous. Or "yes, support Rome" which would have 'tricked' Him into supporting a corrupt government.

His answer was essentially that money isn't nearly as important to God as love, justice, mercy and faithfulness. Give God your heart, your life and all that you are. That's worth a lot more than money.

And if He has you in a corrupt government that requires taxes, then "render unto Caesar that which is Casear's and to God that which is God's."


13And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. 14And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone’s opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?” 15But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar’s.” 17Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at him.
Mark 12:13-17

[jpg7n16]

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

The Old Testament teaches sacrificial giving too. I don't like how people try to portray that the God of the New Testament is somehow different than the God of the Old. "Well that God required tithing, but our new and improved God doesn't." They are one and the same.

Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
Deut 15:10

A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.
Prov 11:25

6 “Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke,
to let the oppressedb go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
Isaiah 58:6-7

The wicked borrows but does not pay back,
but the righteous is generous and gives;
Psalm 37:21

Also see: Generous Giving : Giving in the Old Testament: Worship (Sacrifices and Offerings)

Being blessed as I have been, and being Spirit led, I find myself giving far more than a mere tenth of my income. Now if the Spirit led me to give exactly a tenth of my income, that is what I would do. But nowhere in God's Word does it say or infer that when we give to a church we are giving to God. We are giving to pay the bills of the church. It is church leaders that say giving to the church is giving to God, not the scriptures.

40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’
Matt 25:40

14Yet it was kind of you to sharec my trouble. 15And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving, except you only. 16Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again. 17Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit.d 18I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. 19And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus
Philippians 4:14-19

To follow the tithing commands in the Bible, one would have to give an average of 20% a year, not 10%. The three tithes averaged out to exactly 20% over a 7-year period. So those who believe you are under the tithing commands, why do you limit your tithe to only 10%? Why do you ignore the other two Biblical tithes?

From what I read while looking into this, the notion that they are all separate tithes, is still debated. Are they 3 different tithes on top of each other? Or are they 3 different uses for the same tithe? That's the debate.

Notice how it is mentioned on each mention of "the tithe" (not 'a tithe') that the Levite has no inheritance, so must be able to participate in receiving from "the tithe." To me that seems like each harvest, they took a tithe and gave it to the temple. And in specific years (the 3rd year) this tithe was shared not only with the Levites, but with the poor in the land.

22“You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. 23“You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24“If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, 25then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. 26“You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27“Also you shall not neglect the Levite who is in your town, for he has no portion or inheritance among you.

28“At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town. 29“The Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.
Deut 14:22-29

Most every argument I was able to find bases the second tithe on the fact that, when listed, they are called "tithes." Which they take to mean multiple units of 10%, but could easily mean "the tithe of grain, the tithe of wine, etc." -> are the tithes. Or even over multiple years, you will have given many tithes.

From what I've read, I'm not convinced that they were separate additional tithes. But maybe I'm wrong. I'll keep looking into it.

[SnoopyCool]

I believe that tithing is multi-faceted, in the fact that not only can we help someone else with our monetary/time/etc. donations, but we can also learn and grow. I've found that tithing benefits me greatly - probably moreso than anyone else who might receive any part of my tithe.

[maat55]

People should give as best they are able and willing to give; of thier income or of their "time" or whatever makes them feel okay with their complete role in life.

IMO, when you have zero income and cannot sustain a roof over your families head, then you are not truly in a position to "tithe" or "give" unless the person(s) you are giving to, are indeed worse off than you or your family.

In response to a poster about giving to non-church entities, I don't believe that God would frown upon that giving. If someone is in need, and you want to give to that person, and do give, then I have no doubt that that is a "good" giving. To forgive a debt is a good giving. These are people-to-people transactions and real-life issues.

We are here to learn, to share, and to live. We are all human, we all make mistakes.

If you give because you want to, and it harms no one you are responsible for, then give.

If you give because you want to, and it lessens what you can provide for your own family in basic needs, then IMO you are rather uncaring of your duties as a husband, father, and provider. IMO, that is not honorable.

I do not portend to know what God wants. I cannot understand His reality.

To me, God exists in every living thing on this planet, somehow. He needs nothing that I could give Him; He is beyond the here and now, whereas this is where we exist.

To me, what I can give financially on this world in which we exist with boundaries, is limited, therefore me and DH make judgements (maybe unworthily) and choices as to where, who, and how much to "give."

To me, God knows the measure of my honor and respect for Him, as the Creator of all life in this physical time-bound world.

To me, God (I hope) understands that I believe that real people exist (and especially children), whom have a "basic need" that is not being met. This will ALWAYS be of more importance to me, than contributing to an already viable and rich Church in this country (which may be different if there were readily available means to assure that 100% of my dollars could go to the needy places of other parts of the world, and not line some other corrupted human's pockets or some other entity that is not in true life "need").

Do you people really believe that we honor God, by offering monies to Him?

Do you really think He does not know whether or not we honor and respect who He is and what He's constantly doing in sustaining life and regrowing it from all the death and decay that is in this world?

Monies are valuable to us, not to Him.

When you have no money or income, do you think that you've lost something that God wants or needs?

Do you suddenly lose your "honoring" or respecting of God?

What parent among you wants money from their child?

What parent amoung you would not enjoy watching your child give money to another physical hungry child that he or she encountered in the real world?

What we give and how we give to the people who need it, it all counts.

But, IMO, any father (or head-of-family) who would rather idealistically tithe to the Church, when his families' very roof over their heads stands to be lost, is IMO sorely mistaken as to his priorities. I would not choose to "give" to such a person.

I'm not 100% sure what God wants me to do concerning tithing, but this post makes more sense to me than the typical church doctrine. Great post.

[Mr Nice Guy]

Thanks for the input on my question.

It would be interesting to see a study on the correlation between belief in a higher power, and financial intelligence. Or what percent of "wealthy" people believe in some type of god.