Should struggling families tithe?

[maat55]

[QUOTE]

6. It is ok to give of your time instead.

I was thinking of this today. If someone was earning less than their normal wages due to a recession, they could increase their earnings by tithing with their time.

If you earn 10 dollars an hour, and you get a check of 400 dollars, you could keep the 400 and donate 4 hours of time to the church or other charity. IMO, you can pay your tithe at the same wage you earn your income, with time served.

[GaryArnold]

And cash is what exactly? A liability??
And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.
Genesis 28:22

To finish my part here, cash is an asset - one that God never commanded to tithe on.

As far as Jacob, that would be like me telling God, IF you let me win the lotto, I will give you a tenth of it all. However, even then, God would have to tell me just HOW to give it to Him. We don't really know whether Jacob in fact ever gave a tenth.

Three years ago I wouldn't have had any argument with you on this topic. Once my pastor asked me to teach a Sunday School Class on finances, I began to study the topic in detail. I was shocked. Everything I was reading was the opposite of what I had been taught in church. I approached my pastor and told him what I had come up with. He disagreed with me, but said he would do his own study. Within two weeks he stopped quoting Malachi 3, robbing God, and a few weeks later stopped teaching tithing.

Another pastor I respected agreed to meet with me. He also disagreed with me but also said he would do his own study on the topic. A short time later I attended services at his church and he also had stopped teaching tithing.

My favorite pastor of all time, the one I thought was the most honest and upright person I had ever known, also agreed to meet with me. When I started telling him of my studies, he stopped me and told me he knew I was right, but that he had to teach tithing the way he does because people just don't want to give. He said if he didn't make people believe they are robbing God they wouldn't give enough to keep the church doors open. I was shocked and disappointed. I can no longer respect this pastor even though he was honest with me. Since that meeting I have become aware of many others who have approached their pastors and have been given the same answer I got.

From the beginning of my studies I was hoping my pastor could show me where I was wrong. I actually wanted to be wrong because I didn't want to believe so many pastors are out there either lying to their congregations, or just don't understand the scriptures as I honestly believe I do. I begged The Lord to reveal the truth to me. I begged The Lord to please NOT let me be a false teacher. Over a period of ten days The Holy Spirit first spoke to me, then took me to the scriptures to give me a basic understanding of God's intentions regarding His tithe.

I do not mean to demean anyone, or insult anyone. My own brother was one of the first to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. He has been a Christian and in the church at least ten years longer than me and told me I couldn't possibly be right. Then he asked his own pastor, and when he saw how his pastor answered his questions without ever really giving any scripture to back it up, he did his own study. Now he believes that I am 100% correct regarding the tithe.

I have had to deal with the people closest to me, many of whom said I had to be wrong. Now most of them have taken the time to do their own in-depth study and they have come to the same conclusions I have on this topic. Others merely refuse to discuss the topic with me, and refuse to even give me scripture to back up their own beliefs.

This makes me wonder WHY they believe what they believe. It's very hard to live all your life believing in something and then find out you had been taught a man-made doctrine.

I can't change anyone's beliefs, and don't want to. My purpose is to present what The Spirit has shown me. Now it is up to those who have heard my arguments to do their own research and make their own decision. Maybe some feel they have already done an in-depth study and are satisfied with their current beliefs.

Whatever your beliefs are, FOLLOW THEM. Don't believe one thing and do another. I believe that if you follow your own beliefs, you will be blessed. If The Spirit leads you to tithing, then tithe. I wouldn't want anyone to go against their own beliefs. I only want my brothers and sisters in Christ to have an open mind and to enter their research without prejudice just as I tried to do when I first started to study this topic.

God Bless every one on the blog. I love you all, and regardless of how I have come across, I do respect you and your beliefs.

[jpg7n16]

I never said they tithed on ALL assets. I said the tithe came from assets.

And cash is what exactly? A liability??

And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.
Genesis 28:22

And though I seem to be the only one here with a pro-tithing stance, at least it's nice to know there are others out there that have similar beliefs. Like Thomas Aquinas. Interesting read, as he considers similar objections to your's, and yet comes to different conclusions than you do. (much as I have)

Of Tithes (Four Articles)

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I get that our opinions differ. That I see it as a principle for your income, as a way to honor God from your wealth (Prov 3:9), and you see it as literally only applying to crops and livestock. I understand that side of the argument, but I disagree with it. We could sit here quoting the same verses to one another forever - as we'll each read them differently. You'll see what you want to, as will I. You'll think I'm wrong, I'll think you're wrong.

So maybe the SavingAdvice world would be better off if I went back to honoring my policy of ignoring your posts. What good will come of this? What more can be said??

Insult me all you want. Hold to your 'crops and cattle ONLY' belief all you want. Ridicule my belief all you want.

I just think it'd be better if I didn't reply to you any more. I knew nothing good would come of re-engaging you in discussion. Should have stuck with my gut on that one.
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I meant this thread as a way to discuss whether people should or should not tithe. To get people who never thought of the issue to evaluate both sides of the argument for themselves. And I got carried away in the debate. To anyone I've offended with all this arguing: I'm sorry (includes you Gary).

And for what it's worth, I've noticed I tend to do that. This isn't the first argument I've gotten carried away with. I'm working on improving myself, and that's one thing I'll be trying to improve going forward.


I see tithing as a principle to be applied in both good times and bad. So if you see me on the streets, or post asking advice about your budget and whether you should cut out tithing or not - that's what I'll tell you.

That's my story - and I'm stickin to it.

[GaryArnold]

And then only tithed on the yield/increase.

How else do you account for the increase in crops except by an income of crops? Or do you only believe that cash is the only form of income?

Or do you mean to say that every farmer with a storehouse was not only required to tithe from the harvest, but also from his storehouses? If the tithe were based on assets, then they must have given 10% of all their silos' crops too.

And a rancher with 10 cattle, who have 10 calves born to him during the year, would have to tithe both 1 calve and 1 cow (to fulfill the tithe on assets)

So did they tithe based on total crops on hand? Or the increase in crops at harvest? Total cattle on hand? Or the increase in cattle on hand?

So if I'm going to tithe, should I tithe based on the money on hand? (assets) Or the increase in money on hand? (That would be income) And I harvest every 2 weeks.

The INCOME from the crops came from the sale or exchange of the crops. Whatever was received, whether it be money or product, that would be the income. The increase comes from a seed maturing into a flower, etc.

The tithing commands are clear. Increase of the seed and animals. NOT all assets. I never said they tithed on ALL assets. I said the tithe came from assets.

The fruit comes from the seed. Once the fruit is harvested, you have to plant seed and start all over again. Not the same with animals. And when God wanted the firstborn animals, no animal could have more than one first-born. That means once the cow had a calf, that first and only calf was the firstborn. The first calf born the next time was not the firstborn calf from that cow. It was a ONE-TIME deal. The same as YOU can only have one first-born child no matter how many children you have over no matter how many years. With crops it is totally different. Every season you have the firstfruits (which according to the scriptures could fit in a small basket and went to the priests at the Temple while the tithe went to the Levites).

Since money isn't listed as an item God commanded to be tithed on, you don't need any examples of money. You are taking God's specific definition and adding income and/or money to it. The Israelites didn't tithe on ALL increase. ONLY increase of the land and only animals in herds and flocks. No other animals. If they weren't in herds and flocks, they weren't tithed. They didn't tithe on increase in family size. If their income increased, they didn't tithe on that increase. If they had more money than last year they didn't tithe on that increase. ONLY animals in herds and flocks and crops - ONLY food items.

Income can be called increase. But I have said many times, God specified WHICH increase was tithable. You didn't tithe on every tenth dog or cat or any other animal that was not in herds and flocks.

[jpg7n16]

You have to select the proper definition of the word "increase."

How about the original Hebrew one?

Which is conveniently, the word listing I gave at the bottom - with it's proper definition. I even gave you a link to the scholar's definition.

Not in any accounting book or class I am aware of, and I was raised and still live in a farming community.

When stocks increase in value, do you have income? OR, do you realize income or loss once you dispose of the stocks?

You mean when you "harvest" them?

No one tithed while the crops were still growing. No one tithed based on the value of crops in the field. Only when they 'closed' their position in the field at harvest time. And then only tithed on the yield/increase.

How else do you account for the increase in crops except by an income of crops? Or do you only believe that cash is the only form of income?

Or do you mean to say that every farmer with a storehouse was not only required to tithe from the harvest, but also from his storehouses? If the tithe were based on assets, then they must have given 10% of all their silos' crops too.

And a rancher with 10 cattle, who have 10 calves born to him during the year, would have to tithe both 1 calve and 1 cow (to fulfill the tithe on assets)

So did they tithe based on total crops on hand? Or the increase in crops at harvest? Total cattle on hand? Or the increase in cattle on hand?

So if I'm going to tithe, should I tithe based on the money on hand? (assets) Or the increase in money on hand? (That would be income) And I harvest every 2 weeks.

[GaryArnold]

Deuteronomy 26:12 (RSV)
12“When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your towns and be filled,

Deuteronomy 26:12 (NCV)
12Bring a tenth of all your harvest the third year (the year to give a tenth of your harvest). Give it to the Levites, foreigners, orphans, and widows so that they may eat in your towns and be full.

Deuteronomy 26:12 (DNT)
12When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thy produce in the third year, the year of tithing, thou shalt give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, that they may eat in thy gates, and be filled;

You have to select the proper definition of the word "increase."

You said, "Let's see... you started with the purchase of seeds (aka capital expenditures) you paid people to work the land (aka labor) you paid to water your land (aka overhead), and when the crops were raised, they produced more value than the expense it took to create them. (aka income)"

Not in any accounting book or class I am aware of, and I was raised and still live in a farming community.

When stocks increase in value, do you have income? OR, do you realize income or loss once you dispose of the stocks?

Do you report income when your house goes up in value?

The government has an INCOME TAX. No farmers pays an income tax on the value of the crops. Your assets go up and down in value, but there is no realization of income or loss until the asset is disposed of.

As a state government tax auditor with a Bachelor of Science degree in accounting, my entire career dealt with knowing the difference between assets and income. I taught the subject for the State of California. I taught literally thousands of state employees how to calculate income. I dealt with tax attorneys and CPA's on a daily basis.

Did you tithe on the INCREASE OF VALUE of your home while prices were going up? Do you reduce your tithe by the DECREASE OF VALUE of your home while prices go down? Do you pay your tithes bases on the VALUE of your assets - calling them income when they go up in value?

If you were to prepare a tax return for a farmer, are you going to include in his income the value of the increase of the crops and animals?

And finally, wage earners did NOT tithe under the Old Testament tithing commands. Jesus did not tithe. Paul didn't tithe. Peter didn't tithe.

More than one church has used me to teach a class on taxation and/or finances - the Seventh-day Adventists have used me. The Full Gospel Baptist Church has used me. A Church of God pastor has requested and received my services to help church members with their finances. And, to make it clear, my services are FREE to everyone.

[jpg7n16]

And it was that verse that proved the farmers could sell their crops (and animals) for MONEY, but that MONEY, or INCOME was NOT what they tithed on. Is it really that hard to understand, or is it just easy for me to understand because of my accounting background?

Conveniently, I have a degree in Finance, I work in Accounting, and I passed the CFP exam.

Your self-righteous putdown isn't helping win me over.

Distinguishing between assets and income is really not that hard, but for those who don't already understand the difference, I cover it fully in my book on tithing.

Congrats.

Let's see... you started with the purchase of seeds (aka capital expenditures) you paid people to work the land (aka labor) you paid to water your land (aka overhead), and when the crops were raised, they produced more value than the expense it took to create them. (aka income)

And thus you were required to give a tenth of the increase. Of what was produced by the land that harvest.

Not a tenth of all your crops held in storage (aka inventory = current asset)

The crops are assets. The SALE or exchange of the crops produce income.

The animals are assets. The SALE or exchange of the animals produce income.

For the last time, the tithe was ALWAYS commanded on ASSETS and NEVER on income.

When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.
Deuteronomy 26:12

Increase. (aka tĕbuw'ah) תְּבוּאָה

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

תְּבוּאָה - produce, product, revenue
a) product, yield, crops (of the earth usually)
b) income, revenue

Yield of the land. Not all crops held on hand. Income - not assets.

[GaryArnold]

I posted that verse because God gave specific provision of what to do if you were too far from the Holy land, when you were growing your crops.

Even though you claimed tithes only came from crops grown in the Holy Land.

It is the scriptures that required the tithe to come from crops and animals raised on the Holy land, not something "I claimed." Furthermore, you don't pay the festival tithe or the three-year tithe. The church patterns its teaching after the Levitical tithe was clearly came from the Holy land. That ONE tithe, Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18, is the ONLY tithe that God claimed was His, and that He said was Holy to the Lord.

And it was that verse that proved the farmers could sell their crops (and animals) for MONEY, but that MONEY, or INCOME was NOT what they tithed on. Is it really that hard to understand, or is it just easy for me to understand because of my accounting background?

Distinguishing between assets and income is really not that hard, but for those who don't already understand the difference, I cover it fully in my book on tithing.

The crops are assets. The SALE or exchange of the crops produce income.

The animals are assets. The SALE or exchange of the animals produce income.

For the last time, the tithe was ALWAYS commanded on ASSETS and NEVER on income.

[maat55]

I was just wondering, if you pay your tithe but have to use credit to pay for your food and utilities, have you really tithed?

Say you loose a good paying job, you go on unemployment or find a lower paying job, if you tithe of that money then use credit to finish paying your needs, did you tithe? Would God want you to do this?

What if you run up credit card debt then file BK, did you honor God? Is God such a demanding creditor that he considers your debt to him so important that you would have to use debt to pay your bills?

I have a suggestion for you strict 10% tithers during hardship. Why not run up a credit card on God while you get on your feet? Just say after everytime you revieve money that I owe you 10%, and when you get on your feet, you can pay him back with no interest, or if you feel that guilty add a little in. That way, you will not dishonor God by not paying someone else what you owe them. If I were God, I would have no problem letting you do this.

[jpg7n16]

The tithe came from God's LABOR, not man's labor. God makes the distinction in Deuteronomy 8:18 (NIV) - But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

To produce wealth? Or produce crops?

God gives us the power, or ability, to get or produce wealth. In other words, God gives us the ability to work and earn a living. God gives us the ability to work - to labor. When we work, it is our labor doing the work, not God's labor. He gave us the ability to do the work ourselves.

So like when a doctor helps a sick person, the doctor's work made them better or God's work did?

saying, “If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer.”
Exodus 15:26

In Deuteronomy 14:24-25 the tithe was the crops, not the money. You had to take a tenth of the crops and sell it for money, take the money, then use the money to "buy back" the tithe (food).

I posted that verse because God gave specific provision of what to do if you were too far from the Holy land, when you were growing your crops.

Even though you claimed tithes only came from crops grown in the Holy Land.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees who were the teachers and lawyers. They had income from their profession, but Jesus said nothing about them tithing on their income. Rather, the Scribes and Pharisees were tithing on their garden herbs to keep to the letter of the law - increase of the seed.

Because like you and I both believe - and the text clearly says, Jesus was more concerned with their lack of mercy, justice, and faithfulness.

Jesus wasn't there to give a financial plan for their lives, but to fix their hearts. He has always been more concerned with people's hearts than their money. But as part of that he mentioned that tithing was good to keep doing.

[GaryArnold]

It's amazing that you consider crops growing to be a miracle of God, but the ability to use your body to achieve other goals as your own doing. The ability of my fingers to type is just as much a miracle as crops growing from the ground.

Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce
Proverbs 3:9

24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses
Deuteronomy 14:24-25

The tithe came from God's LABOR, not man's labor. God makes the distinction in Deuteronomy 8:18 (NIV) - But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

God gives us the power, or ability, to get or produce wealth. In other words, God gives us the ability to work and earn a living. God gives us the ability to work - to labor. When we work, it is our labor doing the work, not God's labor. He gave us the ability to do the work ourselves.

The tithe never came from this ability that he gave to us. Our God-given abilities cannot produce crops and animals. We might work the soil, plant the seed, etc., but it is the miracles of God that produce the fruit.

Proverbs 3:9 - HONOR the Lord with your wealth AND with the firstfruits of all your produce. Firstfruits of all your produce, not income. Not the first of your wealth.

In Deuteronomy 14:24-25 the tithe was the crops, not the money. You had to take a tenth of the crops and sell it for money, take the money, then use the money to "buy back" the tithe (food).

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees who were the teachers and lawyers. They had income from their profession, but Jesus said nothing about them tithing on their income. Rather, the Scribes and Pharisees were tithing on their garden herbs to keep to the letter of the law - increase of the seed.

[jpg7n16]

While I feel that giving money to the church is important for the operating costs associated with running the facility and with spreading their message, I think that giving money to other charities that help the sick or poor are equally as important and beneficial to society.

All the bread in the world will not save someone's soul.

I believe charities and organizations serve immense purposes in helping meet the physical needs of those who have them. Red Cross, Salvation Army, Food banks nationwide, etc.

So many great orgranizations. But which is more important: to feed someone's body? or to feed their soul?


If you don't think that giving to the Church equates to giving to God, there's not really anything I can say. How else would you give to Him? Burn up your cash? Grow some tomatoes in your backyard and burn them on a makeshift altar?

If you give food to the poor, Jesus says it's the same as giving to Him - but if someone only feels they gave food to a poor guy, not directly to Jesus, what can be said?

So if I give my money to a church who helps people find salvation, how is that different than giving food to a homeless person? I have helped feed their soul, which (to me) is more important than their body.


Nonetheless, if we have the money available, it's preferable to give to both. Feed the body AND the soul. We should not neglect charitable organizations, as they serve wonderful purposes for society.

[jpg7n16]

1 - Since you believe it takes more than a 10% increase in income to get out of poverty, just what percent do you think it would take? 11%? 15%? 200%?

It is based on so many factors that it is not possible to give an exact percentage.

2 - In Matthew 23:23 Jesus was speaking to those under the Mosaic law, not to anyone else. And notice, he didn't tell them they should tithe on their income, but rather on their herb gardens - crops (assets that come from God's miracles).

Funny, I think everything He ever said was to those under the Mosaic law. When He said, "Love your neighbor," He was speaking to Jews who were under the law. Does that mean I shouldn't love my neighbor? Of course not.

It's amazing that you consider crops growing to be a miracle of God, but the ability to use your body to achieve other goals as your own doing. The ability of my fingers to type is just as much a miracle as crops growing from the ground.

After all, man planted the seed, man watered the fields, man tilled the ground, man fertilized the soil, man harvested the crops, man sold those crops in the market. But God enabled the man to do it all, and He created the principles that cause the crops to grow.

So why does God get credit for crops, but not accounting? The brain and eyes are miraculous as well, and He created the principles that let the books balance. We should be thankful for however God chooses to provide for us, whether that's farm labor, or teaching, or medicine, etc.

3 - Concerning the widow - the tithe was partially used to help the widows, orphans, etc. The poor didn't pay the tithe, they ate from it.

And yet Jesus commended the woman for her gift. You would say it was irresponsible.

Notice Leviticus 27:32 - every tenth animal was the tithe. If there was only an increase of 9 animals that year, none were tithed. If there were 19, only 1 would be the tithe. Not ten percent. The TENTH one out of every ten.

“The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep

You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God
Exodus 34:19, 26

Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce
Proverbs 3:9

To be a Holy tithe the tithe had to come from the Holy land. Any crops or animals outside the Holy land were not considered clean and could not be accept as a Holy tithe. Yet God, Himself, claimed His tithe to be Holy; therefore, if it doesn't come from the Holy land, God doesn't accept it as His tithe.

24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses
Deuteronomy 14:24-25

Question: How do we put God FIRST in our life with our money (income)?

I have already told you my belief on this question.

The gospel is FREE to everyone. There is no charge for the gospel.

100% Agreed.

I never said "tithe or die" "tithe or go to hell" - because neither of those are true. You cannot purchase salvation. Nonetheless, you should honor the Lord with your increase. Prov 3:9

Who is getting the money? Is it God? Or does the money go to PAY for salaries, the building, utilities, etc., ALL of which WE benefit from?

If Christians are the only ones benefitting from the Church, then the Church is failing in it's job.

The tithe goes to the church that the Gospel of the Kingdom of God may be preached. Not to make it's members comfy. If you feel your particular local church body is not handling the money in the way it should be - then give to a different church that is handling God's money properly.

Buying a radio does not towards the tithe, but giving your money to a radio ministry that the Word may be spread to listeners around the world would.

WHO determine what is giving to God? YOU, or the scriptures?

You should give to God according to your best understanding of the Scriptures.

Which my understanding is to honor the Lord with the firstfruits of my wealth (based on the several passages above) - whether that's a little or a lot.

Obviously you interpret them differently than I do, so you won't give in the same way I do.

[bjl584]

While I feel that giving money to the church is important for the operating costs associated with running the facility and with spreading their message, I think that giving money to other charities that help the sick or poor are equally as important and beneficial to society.

[parafly]

Just to add, tithing does not need to be strictly monetary. If you are struggling family or have little to no income, you can always volunteer at a number of different organizations which help society in numerous ways. To say that tithing must be a monetary donation of 10% of income is short sighted.

Personally, I do not attend church, but find various ways of being a giving person by volunteering at a homeless shelter and fostering rescue dogs.