Should struggling families tithe?

[disneysteve]

Now I totally agree with DS, that this argument cannot be "won" - which I'm not exactly trying to do. I'm more trying convey why I believe what I believe, so that you can determine between yourself and God, what you will believe.

Exactly. Of course, this topic comes up here periodically because someone posts their situation and that they are in debt, maybe unemployed, facing foreclosure, whatever. Then they list their budget and it includes a big chunk of money for a tithe. It is only natural that some of us, in responding to the OP, might suggest reconsidering the tithe given the overall situation. Some people will be open to the suggestion. Other people consider the tithe non-negotiable no matter how bad their finances are.

[jpg7n16]

NEW TESTAMENT - THE WORKER SHOULD BE FIRST TO RECEIVE A SHARE OF THE FRUIT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

When was the last time you heard a pastor say that you should spend the FIRST part of your income on yourself and your family?

I don't fully expect everyone here to believe the same as I do (which I hope I've made clear). I enjoy the discussion more than anything.

But the verse you show from 2 Timothy, was not about tithing; in context, it is about how those who remain faithful and will be rewarded:

1You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. 5An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. 6It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 7Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
2 Timothy 1-7

Even according to the verses you posted, once that hard-working farmer receives his first share of the crops, he should tithe off that share. (notice that the first listed item you gave for all tithes, was 'crops')

So yes, the hard-working farmer should have the first share of the crops. And then once he's received his share, he should tithe from that share. Regardless of whether it was a big or small harvest. (aka - even on a low income)

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

Again, in context, this is not about tithing - it is about taking care of one's own family, before taking care of the needy (widows). It also says not to only take care of yourself and neglect your family (vs 6)

But it has nothing to say about the duty to honor God from all He gives us with a tithe. (I believe the priority should go God > Family > Others; which fits the passage you pulled that verse from)

3Honor widows who are truly widows. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. 5She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, 6but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. 7Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach. 8But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 5:3-8

To me, the Bible makes it perfectly clear where my money goes FIRST.

I agree that the Bible is perfectly clear, but I think it shows that God is first, in all things - including finances.

God comes before self and others:

35And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Matthew 22:35-40

Serving God comes before our own safety:

16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
Daniel 3:16-18

God is the first priority in everything:

16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Colossians 1:16-18

God takes priority over family:
What should be the order of priorities in our family?


Jesus even specifically says to seek God, rather than seeking food, clothing, and drink:

25“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?g 28And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Matthew 6:25-33

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Now I totally agree with DS, that this argument cannot be "won" - which I'm not exactly trying to do. I'm more trying convey why I believe what I believe, so that you can determine between yourself and God, what you will believe.

[fruitbowlk]

I think it is always important to take care of your home before anyone or thing else.

[GaryArnold]

Let's look at the scriptures.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18: The First Tithe - a tenth of crops and animals and commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27: The Second Tithe aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29: The Third Tithe aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.

Those are the ONLY tithes commanded by God. Now if you believe God didn't provide for the future in His Word, and that God expects your pastor to change His Word to fit the needs of the church, then I guess you would believe your pastor when he tells you to tithe on your income.

OLD TESTAMENT - THE FIRST OF THE FRUITS SHOULD GO TO GOD
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

NEW TESTAMENT - THE WORKER SHOULD BE FIRST TO RECEIVE A SHARE OF THE FRUIT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

When was the last time you heard a pastor say that you should spend the FIRST part of your income on yourself and your family?

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

The New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

To me, the Bible makes it perfectly clear where my money goes FIRST.

Something else to consider. God said the tithe belongs to HIM, and HE gave the tithe to the Levites, FOREVER (Numbers 18). Jesus said when we give to the poor or needy, we are giving to HIM. God NEVER said when we give to the church we are giving to HIM.

Don't fall for the Malachi threat. In Nehemiah 10:37 we learn that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests, and the tithes were taken to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities. In Nehemiah 10:38 we learn that the Levites would take a tithe of the tithe to the temple. It is this tithe, the tithe from the Levites, that went to the storehouse, not the tithe from the people. This is important to remember when we study Malachi 3:10.

[bjl584]

If a family is truly struggling and is barely making ends meat, then I think that tithing would be detrimental to their situation. What good is giving money to others if you don't have enough to take care of your own family's needs? Get your own family above water and on the right track, then be giving to others.

If someone wants to be giving even in hard times, then give something other than money. Call your local food bank, soup kitchen, salvation army, etc. and ask if you can volunteer your time on a Saturday. Get invoved with your local school district and their various fund raisers and activities. Help out with other local organizations. There are countless ways to be giving and helpful to the community that don't cost a dime. I would advise going that route if money is tight in your household.

[Mr Nice Guy]

With the holidays upon us, something I have been wondering about is tithing and charity. If I donate money or food to the foodbank, would that count towards tithe? The money is not going to my home church, however it is benefiting God's kingdom. I became a believer about a year ago, and I don't think I would have the heart to donate without that event happening.

Any thoughts?

[disneysteve]

This is an endless debate that can't ever be "won" by either side. Tithing is a religious belief. It is NOT a financial decision. Many people tithe who, from a strictly financial standpoint, probably shouldn't. But just try to tell them that. It is a conversation not even worth having.

I probably have a little different view on this since I'm Jewish, not Christian. From a practical viewpoint, I see many people who tithe and really can't afford to. I've had patients tell me that they are unable to afford their medication because after they pay their bills and their tithe, there is nothing left. I'm sorry, but I have a problem with that. In Judaism, health comes first, before any other obligations. If you must eat on Yom Kippur, a major fast day, in order to maintain health, then you eat. If you are starving and the only food around is pork (banned under Jewish dietary law) then you eat pork. I think monetary giving is no different. We are extremely active in our congregation and give generously, but we didn't always. When I was just out of school and buried in debt, not only didn't we give much of anything but we also received a reduced rate for our dues. Over time, as our personal financial situation improved, we gradually gave more. Today, not only do we pay full dues, we have become sustaining members meaning we make a substantial extra payment above our scheduled dues and make various other donations throughout the year. We're now making up for when we weren't able to give. I think that's what people ought to consider doing when they are going through rough times.

[jpg7n16]

I think the Matt 6 passage refers to how you give, not whether you do or don't give.

The Pharisees were taking the tithes (meant to honor God) and using it as a means to honor themselves.

It absolutely should be personal and between only the giver and God - but it still should be done. See Matt 23:23 posted above.

[momcents]

Matthew 6:1-4 (But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.


Seems to me that giving and tithing is a very personal thing, and each should do it according to their own conscience.

[jpg7n16]

It should be the mentality, versus the equation.

I think it should be both. Not versus.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Matthew 23:23


Like cschin4 said, the tithe is the first 10%. Anything else is a gift. Giving and tithing are a bit different.

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
2 Corinthians 9:7

[jpg7n16]

As already stated, this really is a very personal religious question, and one that relies upon your personal faith/beliefs.

I know that this comes from someone who is rather well-off, but I personally believe that as you put your trust in God, pay tithing first and do the rest from there, that you will be provided for.

The tithe is much more than a legalistic, ritualistic act.

I agree with alot of the posts above, these 3 statements in particular.

I don't believe that God has a checklist and is keeping track of the dollars and sense.

Absolutely (even about the 'sense' part though I'm sure that was a misspelling of 'cents' )

You cannot buy your way to heaven, since Jesus paid it all.

[momcents]

It should be the mentality, versus the equation.

[jpg7n16]

LOL -- no one ever really stops giving. Financial giving is not the only kind.

But in striving to answer that question, I'd suggest that if a person is supporting some other person (or more specifically: people or persons who cannot help themselves) and has an "income" in the true sense of the word (ie. gainfully employed or self-employed and is making moeny at it), then they can financially give if they so desire.

God isn't tangible; people are tangible.

Your view is that any tithe "honors" God. But the reality is that as head of household, the more responsible thing to honor, is your duty to help provide for the well being of the family you created. The more responsible thing to provide for is your own future well being such that YOU will not need to go back to the Church and ask for help for your family.

Very true. Financial giving is not the only kind of giving. Maybe we should give 10% of our time to God too. I wonder how the world would change if we gave 2.4 hours a day to God.

But just because it's not the only kind of giving, does not mean that you shouldn't give financially. Or that you can substitute your tithe with time. If you're struggling, you should use that time to find work anyways.


Jesus said the 1st commandment was to love God with all you have. The 2nd was to love people as yourself.

That means that God comes before people, and even before self. I believe that should hold true for our money as well.

Luke's quote is about a widow. She knew that she did not need that two coins that day; she she gave it all. She had no children, no husband; all she had was love. She did what she wanted to do.

Don't assume because she was a widow that she had no one to care for.

8Then the word of the Lord came to him, 9“Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. Behold, I have commanded a widow there to feed you.” 10So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, a widow was there gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, “Bring me a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.” 11And as she was going to bring it, he called to her and said, “Bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.” 12And she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I have nothing baked, only a handful of flour in a jar and a little oil in a jug. And now I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it and die.” 13And Elijah said to her, “Do not fear; go and do as you have said. But first make me a little cake of it and bring it to me, and afterward make something for yourself and your son. 14For thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘The jar of flour shall not be spent, and the jug of oil shall not be empty, until the day that the Lord sends rain upon the earth.’” 15And she went and did as Elijah said. And she and he and her household ate for many days. 16The jar of flour was not spent, neither did the jug of oil become empty, according to the word of the Lord that he spoke by Elijah.
1 Kings 17:8-16

This is another story about a widow who gave everything she had, and God provided for her anyway.


The truth is, we don't know who this woman in Luke cared for. All we know is she didn't have much, and chose to trust God anyways.

JPG, I have no issues with any portion of earnings going toward whatever it's designated for.

I do have issues with giving money to an entity or an ideal when there is NO income. Zero dollars earned.

Until there's true "income," there's only mounting debts from this family where the HoH (head-of-household) is choosing to give to an entity, before his own family NEEDS are met.

To me "needs" are those that put a roof over your family's heads and a meal on your children's table. If you can do that under "unemployment," and tithe with your basic needs (and those of your children and SO), then that's fine.

Every single place in this world has differnt cost of living requirements. In another country, the norm might not be to have a roof over your head-- but, that's not the norm in this country. It's unfair to talk about a dollar amount or a percentage amount; no two situations are the same.

He's making a choice for his whole family (and a poor one IMO); the widow was making a choice for herself.

If you have no income you should still tithe. Tithe = give 10% to the work of the kingdom of God.

10% * $0 = $0

So a person with $0 income, should tithe in the amount of $0.

But if a person has $800 income for a month, they should tithe $80 - regardless of other expenses they need to pay. You don't tithe based on expenses, you tithe based on income.

The Bible doesn't say, "1st meet all your family's needs; and then with the extra you have, give 10% of that to God."


Income does not mean "excess."

[momcents]

In my religion, tuition to the church school is considered tithing. DH doesn't exactly see it that way, and we do contribute what we can to the church (and we support other charities we feel are important). Is it exactly 10%? Who knows. Sometimes it is more. Sometimes it is less. We are fortunate that our parish also considers the gifts of time and talent (which we donate freely and frequently given how active we are).

I believe that it has to do with attitude of generosity and being a good steward of our resources (financially, and otherwise). I don't believe that God has a checklist and is keeping track of the dollars and sense. If one has a generous heart, one will have a generous attitude and generous behaviors (non-self indulgent).

[littleroc02us]

The old testement spells it out for those of you who are christian. It's tiring to watch people twist this verse around to make it their own. I am not very good at this myself and definetly work at it. I don't feel that I have the right to answer for another Christian except to say that you have already answered your question.

Numbers 18:26

26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering.