Should struggling families tithe?

[Snodog]

But I still don't get how someone who can't afford to give any money, can be expected to afford to give several hours a week. Or did I misinterpret the suggestion on that side?

Maybe their boss wont give them any more hours. Or maybe they're out of work and simply can't find a job? Jobs aren't exactly easy to find in this envirement. It's not going to take 8 hours/day sending out resumes and going to interviews is it? These people may have some down time and want to get out of the house and feel productive. But any volunteering that is done is at the persons own discretion and not required IMO.

[GaryArnold]

Actually, to me anyway, working the city mission for 8 long hours for free is a lot more demanding than simply tithing. To volunteer, I have to get up early, drive to the mission, do some sort of semi-physical work all day without pay such as load or unload trucks, or prepare meals. Quite a long day, and quite tiring. To tithe, all that I really need is my checkbook and a pen.

You are quite right.

My experience has been those who really argue hard in favor of mandatory tithing are those who want to believe that they have the other 90% to spend as they wish. Then everything above the tithe becomes discretionary. They can give above it if they wish, but don't feel obligated. In other words, many of these tithers probably could be giving 20% or 30% or more of their income, but now they feel they have done their part by "paying their dues" of the tenth.

God actually looks at what we do with 100% of our income, not 10%. If the tithe is mandatory, then there is no heart involved in paying that tenth. It becomes the same as a tax. It is paid out of habit and obligation. There can't possibly be much joy in paying a bill.

On the other hand, when giving becomes solely discretionary, from the heart, giving is a real joy, and it shows the heart.

Giving your time to a charitable cause is much more valuable than giving money. Those earning a good income merely write out a check and put it in the offering plate. No heart involved. No soul involved. Time is much more precious than money.

Since God defined His tithe to be crops and animals ONLY, if anyone has a right to add income to that definition, then time can also be added. In fact, for those who argue in the Old Testament the economy was made up of mainly farmers, so today we give money instead of the farm products, well that doesn't even make sense. As an accountant, my product was my services. Therefore, it would be more logical to say I should tithed one-tenth of my services to charity. That was my product. Money wasn't my product.

What would God prefer - you give $20 to the church, or give an hour of your time to a handicapped person? I, personally, believe that God would much rather I give my time to help someone else.

It just amazes me how people change God's Word to mean whatever they want it to mean.

[bjl584]

Because I feel that the tithe is not discretionary. It is my belief, based on how I understand Scripture, that I should honor the Lord from my wealth, with all that He gives me - in good times and bad - by means of tithing on all income, whether a little or a lot.

Additional monetary gifts and any gifts of time are purely discretionary.

So if times are tough, I would still honor the Lord with a tithe, but would suspend additional monetary gifts, and the giving of my time - using my own personal discretion.


That is essentially how I believe, yes. It is also okay to give up discretionary gifts above the tithe.


But then is it okay to suspend both? If you choose to give time instead of money, would you be in favor of someone who suspends both?


So as best as I can see it right now, the idea that time can be substituted for monetary tithe stems from the mindset that all tithing of any form is just charitable giving, and thus purely discretionary. So if it's all at your own discretion, then what difference does it make? I can understand that portion of the argument then.


But I still don't get how someone who can't afford to give any money, can be expected to afford to give several hours a week. Or did I misinterpret the suggestion on that side?

"well if you can't give money, what if you gave time instead?" - to me reads, you can't afford to give money, but you can afford to give time. Which doesn't make sense to me.

I would argue either one would be sacrifice. Time is money. You could theoretically give time to a charitable organization. Let's say I put in 8 hours at the city mission on a Saturday for free. I could have, as you suggested, go out and find extra work on that Saturday instead of volunteering. So, for the sake of argument, let's say that I could have secured a part time job earning 10 per hour. However, I've chosen to give that up in favor of volumteering. Volunteering has now "cost" me $80. Or, I could have tithed 10% of my $20 an hour full time job, also $80. Six of one, half dozen the other.

Actually, to me anyway, working the city mission for 8 long hours for free is a lot more demanding than simply tithing. To volunteer, I have to get up early, drive to the mission, do some sort of semi-physical work all day without pay such as load or unload trucks, or prepare meals. Quite a long day, and quite tiring. To tithe, all that I really need is my checkbook and a pen.

[jpg7n16]

So, if it is acceptable to argue in favor of giving up doing charitable work during tough times, then why is it not also acceptable to give up a monetary tithe during these same tough times? Both are charitable works.

Because I feel that the tithe is not discretionary. It is my belief, based on how I understand Scripture, that I should honor the Lord from my wealth, with all that He gives me - in good times and bad - by means of tithing on all income, whether a little or a lot.

Additional monetary gifts and any gifts of time are purely discretionary.

So if times are tough, I would still honor the Lord with a tithe, but would suspend additional monetary gifts, and the giving of my time - using my own personal discretion.

But, you are saying that it is OK to give up time and never the monetary tithe. Can you explain? I would conclude that you feel that the monetary tithe is more important than volunteering of one's time or effort.

That is essentially how I believe, yes. It is also okay to give up discretionary gifts above the tithe.

I would argue that both are of equal weight and should be treated as such. If it is acceptable to suspend the one during tough times, then it must be acceptable to also suspend the other.

But then is it okay to suspend both? If you choose to give time instead of money, would you be in favor of someone who suspends both?


So as best as I can see it right now, the idea that time can be substituted for monetary tithe stems from the mindset that all tithing of any form is just charitable giving, and thus purely discretionary. So if it's all at your own discretion, then what difference does it make? I can understand that portion of the argument then.


But I still don't get how someone who can't afford to give any money, can be expected to afford to give several hours a week. Or did I misinterpret the suggestion on that side?

"well if you can't give money, what if you gave time instead?" - to me reads, you can't afford to give money, but you can afford to give time. Which doesn't make sense to me.

[bjl584]

Well I really do get that. For you Family and self is the highest priority so cut back whenever that's in jeapordy. I get that. I really do.

What I don't get is the mindset that "well I can't give money cause I need every penny for my family, but if you'd like 4-8 hours of time that's okay"; those 4-8 hours are just as needed as the money - and could be used to make even more than a tithe (through overtime), so why is one okay, but not the other? If every dollar is needed, shouldn't every available hour be needed as well? I know some hours are not available, as you need time to sleep and eat and just rest and be with family. But if you have 4-8 hours each week to work for free, and you need money, why not try to work for pay in those hours? Or use them to search for higher paying work that can free up time later?

I don't understand that, but am honestly trying to see where you guys are coming from.

I guess what I do not understand is that you are arguing that it is okay to give up charitable work such as volunteering in order to go find additional work to help add income to the family budget. This volunteering of one's time is being forgoed because the struggling family needs every last dime that they can. Therefore it is OK to not volunteer at this time because they need that time that they would have been working for free so that they can go out and find employment where they will be compensated monetarily. So, if it is acceptable to argue in favor of giving up doing charitable work during tough times, then why is it not also acceptable to give up a monetary tithe during these same tough times? Both are charitable works. One is of effort and time, and the other is of money. Both still charity none the less. You did state that we should give both time and money. But, you are saying that it is OK to give up time and never the monetary tithe. Can you explain? I would conclude that you feel that the monetary tithe is more important than volunteering of one's time or effort. Or that you feel that giving money is more of a sacrifice than giving one's time and effort. I would argue that both are of equal weight and should be treated as such. If it is acceptable to suspend the one during tough times, then it must be acceptable to also suspend the other.

[SnoopyCool]

Thank you, God has helped me tremendously.

[GaryArnold]

A few days ago a woman posted on a tithing blog something that I think some of you should see.

She said tithing was not an option. It was mandatory. She said she and her children were being kicked out of their apartment for failure to pay the rent, but she paid her tithes. She said there are times when she doesn't have food for her children, but she pays her tithes. She said she isn't going to let her children put God against her.

Some time ago a woman went to her pastor and told him her husband was terminally ill and required expensive medicine. She only had enough money to EITHER tithe or get his medication. The pastor told her to tithe. She purchased the medication for her husband and left that church.

Now, IF you believe tithing is commanded of us today, on our income, then I guess you believe the tithe comes before food for your children, and the tithe comes before needed medication.

IF those are your beliefs, may God help you.

[SnoopyCool]

I would like to add to the conversation this: for many people, tithing is a commandment with the promise of help from above. My family has given 10% of our income because we have believed that we would be helped along in those things we needed. And it did help us, I truly believe. So while it might not have made the best sense to many people, there's another dimension to the payment of tithes and offerings that should be recognized here. In my opinion, it is a matter of faith. So my answer to the original question is "yes, struggling families should tithe." And perhaps most especially if those families are struggling financially.

[jpg7n16]

This has come up several times in the thread and I think you may be missing the point being made on this issue. Yes, if you are unemployed and have zero income, there would be no tithe. But many people who are unemployed do get some income here or there from a temp job or something part-time or mowing a few lawns or whatever. In those cases, I think every dollar is needed by the individual and his/her family and shouldn't be going to charity at that point.

Well I really do get that. For you Family and self is the highest priority so cut back whenever that's in jeapordy. I get that. I really do.

What I don't get is the mindset that "well I can't give money cause I need every penny for my family, but if you'd like 4-8 hours of time that's okay"; those 4-8 hours are just as needed as the money - and could be used to make even more than a tithe (through overtime), so why is one okay, but not the other? If every dollar is needed, shouldn't every available hour be needed as well? I know some hours are not available, as you need time to sleep and eat and just rest and be with family. But if you have 4-8 hours each week to work for free, and you need money, why not try to work for pay in those hours? Or use them to search for higher paying work that can free up time later?

I don't understand that, but am honestly trying to see where you guys are coming from.

[disneysteve]

For those who feel that tithing is required by God today, and that God requires tithing on income, the issue should be settled. You tithe regardless of the circumstances.

Now for those who feel tithing is not a requirement, but is a good thing to do, that is a totally different discussion.

Exactly right. Some folks see tithing as a black and white issue. It must be done no matter what. And that's fine. I respect that belief and those folks should behave accordingly.

I also respect the folks who believe charity is discretionary.

This is why tithing discussions never really get anywhere or accomplish anything because neither group will ever alter the beliefs of the other, nor should they try. Just respect everybody else's beliefs.

[GaryArnold]

I feel compelled to post one more time.

For those who feel that tithing is required by God today, and that God requires tithing on income, the issue should be settled. You tithe regardless of the circumstances. What makes the difference whether you make $10,000 a month or $500 a month. If it's a requirement of God, how could you not tithe? How could God make it a REQUIREMENT but let you get by without tithing during hard times? It's either a requirement or it isn't. There shouldn't even be any discussion.

Now for those who feel tithing is not a requirement, but is a good thing to do, that is a totally different discussion.

If you believe you have to tithe to be obedient to God, how could you not tithe?

If you believe you are robbing God if you don't tithe, how could you not tithe?

Income is income whether it comes from your regular job, from selling on eBay, from unemployment benefits, etc.

I just cannot understand how anyone could believe that God requires the tithe on their income, but they make excuses for not tithing.

[disneysteve]

I always think the tithe should be of income. If you're unemployed, you have $0 income so you don't need to tithe at all.

This has come up several times in the thread and I think you may be missing the point being made on this issue. Yes, if you are unemployed and have zero income, there would be no tithe. But many people who are unemployed do get some income here or there from a temp job or something part-time or mowing a few lawns or whatever. In those cases, I think every dollar is needed by the individual and his/her family and shouldn't be going to charity at that point.

Here's an example. I left my job at the beginning of February 2000. I did not have another job lined up so I was unemployed with zero income. We cut out a bunch of discretionary spending and charitable giving during that time (actually we had cut stuff even before that in anticipation of me leaving the job to bulk up the cash reserves). However, I was selling actively on ebay and bringing in as much as a couple thousand dollars per month. That came nowhere near replacing my regular 6-figure income, though. So even though there was some money coming in, we still didn't give any money to charity during that period because we needed whatever came in to help reduce the burn rate on our savings.

I took a new job in mid-April but initially started as part-time earning about half of what I had earned at the old job. We still kept expenses down and did not resume the charitable giving because we had to pay our bills and rebuild our EF. We didn't feel that we were earning enough, given our expenses, to be giving money away. Once my income got back in range to what I had been earning previously, we got back on track with our charitable giving and some of our discretionary spending.

I understand that you would have had us donate 10% of the ebay income to charity but that just wasn't reasonable IMO given the circumstances. That would have used up our EF faster and had a greater impact on our personal financial well-being going forward. I had no idea how long I would be unemployed. Maybe if I knew it would only be 2-3 months, I would have acted differently but I didn't know that. It could have been 2 months. It could have been 6 months. I needed to manage our available funds to stretch them as long as necessary.

[jpg7n16]

You're not the only one on here taking a pro-tithing stance.

You're absolutely right. I was focusing too much on the negative. Oops

I agree thats a great idea -even if the person is unemployed. That person has a surplus of time and maybe they can do something that looks good on a resume.

Time = Money

hmm see I always think the tithe should be of income. If you're unemployed, you have $0 income so you don't need to tithe at all.

I'm all for people giving of their time, I just don't think it replaces tithing. I think it's discretionary giving.

So if you're unemployed, there's no need to tithe at all. It's now your job to look for a job. Any giving of your time is discretionary (not a tithe).
If your family is struggling, your time might be better spent looking for extra/higher paying work.
If you're doing well, absolutely give of both your time and money. Giving of any kind is always valuable. And time is a very valuable thing to give.


Having said that, I'd have a very hard time telling someone not to give a little time if they have it available and want to. I mean you can only work so much in one week. Even if you're working 50 hours, there's still a lot of time for other pursuits. (and yeah it'd look good on a resume too)

But if they're giving like 5-10 hours each week, and are struggling to make it, that should probably change IMO.

[Snodog]

[QUOTE=maat55;278226]

I was thinking of this today. If someone was earning less than their normal wages due to a recession, they could increase their earnings by tithing with their time.

If you earn 10 dollars an hour, and you get a check of 400 dollars, you could keep the 400 and donate 4 hours of time to the church or other charity. IMO, you can pay your tithe at the same wage you earn your income, with time served.

I agree thats a great idea -even if the person is unemployed. That person has a surplus of time and maybe they can do something that looks good on a resume.

Time = Money

[SnoopyCool]

And though I seem to be the only one here with a pro-tithing stance, at least it's nice to know there are others out there that have similar beliefs.

You're not the only one on here taking a pro-tithing stance.