The Middle Class Life Style Is Putting You In Debt?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

It's not that people are afraid of getting a little dirty. It's that there is still better opportunity in having higher education. Earning potential over time is higher and I've witnessed the same even having a nonspecific degree.

Disagree with this. Had a relative abandon a lucrative career as an industrial electrician for a degree field (because it's "more educated").

[ua_guy]

Disagree with this. Had a relative abandon a lucrative career as an industrial electrician for a degree field (because it's "more educated").

My statements don't take into account every person's personal desire or career path. I'm a firm believer that it's a better to have a degree than not, and I would disagree that obtaining a college degree is only about the prospect of making money. It's about becoming educated, it's about pursuing interests. If a student parlays their experience and studies into a career path, then great. May their expectations about the working world be real.

[disneysteve]

I would disagree that obtaining a college degree is only about the prospect of making money. It's about becoming educated, it's about pursuing interests.

It is so nice to hear someone else say this. I'm a huge proponent of the value of college going far beyond just prepping you for a career. I think college is a time to experience adulthood in a controlled environment, learn critical thinking, learn how to learn, learn how to interact with others and live together, explore varied interests that you might otherwise never be exposed to, etc.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

My statements don't take into account every person's personal desire or career path. I'm a firm believer that it's a better to have a degree than not, and I would disagree that obtaining a college degree is only about the prospect of making money. It's about becoming educated, it's about pursuing interests. If a student parlays their experience and studies into a career path, then great. May their expectations about the working world be real.

Today's colleges do nothing to educate, for most kids it's some political indoctrination, and a good place to do keg stands. Have you ever seen how little the average student knows after they graduate college? It's pretty embarassing.

You don't need college to become educated.

[Fishindude77]

At present, only about 45% of people 25 and older in the workforce have a bachelor's degree. 60% of jobs require some form of higher education. You do the math.

Are you suggesting that 60% of the jobs in America require college education?
Total BS, maybe 25% at best.

[Jluke]

Today's colleges do nothing to educate, for most kids it's some political indoctrination, and a good place to do keg stands. Have you ever seen how little the average student knows after they graduate college? It's pretty embarassing..

I majored in chemistry. When I graduated and started working I realized that I learned all of the things that weren't needed for industry. However, it made learning the "real world" tasks that much easier. College would have been really boring had I only learned how to write procedures, agreements, review reports, etc.

You don't need college to become educated.

Nope, but sometimes that piece of paper gets you in the door where otherwise they would not give you the time of day. The system is set up that way. While nothing is guaranteed, I would rather be in a position to work full time and make six figures, than work the same amount of hours in a year and make 30k.

[ua_guy]

At present, only about 45% of people 25 and older in the workforce have a bachelor's degree. 60% of jobs require some form of higher education. You do the math.

Are you suggesting that 60% of the jobs in America require college education?
Total BS, maybe 25% at best.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/09/09/report-employers-want-more-college-graduates-for-lower-level-jobs

This article is a year old, but there are many more like it and the number is only going UP.

[ua_guy]

Today's colleges do nothing to educate, for most kids it's some political indoctrination, and a good place to do keg stands. Have you ever seen how little the average student knows after they graduate college? It's pretty embarassing.

You don't need college to become educated.

One can certainly educate themselves outside of college, but a lot of people choose college as a dedicated and concentrated effort to study things at a relatively young age, to enjoy the experience, and they do it to add to their credentials. I know I got a lot out of my college experience and when I went applying for jobs I automatically qualified for the first requirement-- to have a bachelor's degree.

Very large and successful companies compete with each other to hire students directly out of school.

Whether you like it, or think it's worth it, there's a whole employment sector that discriminates based on educational achievement.

Attendance is optional and people pay good money to educate themselves. When I attended, there were very few people there whose parents "made" them go. Most students were there by choice. Then again, it was a private school.

If what you were trying to say was "college doesn't make people smarter", I also agree. But that kind of goes back to the notion about engineering students mentioned above...not everyone is cut out for college, and not everyone has what it takes to be an engineer, or a doctor, and not for lack of trying. They simply aren't smart enough.

[feh]

I agree, but private schools are a lot more expensive (at least at list price). Public/state schools don't give that kind of aid but it also isn't as needed since the cost is a lot lower to begin with.

Yes.

Nevertheless, the inflation rate of tuition over the last 20-30 years has been way, way over CPI (much like health insurance costs).

[feh]

40 years ago, an unskilled worker w/ a HS diploma had a good chance of getting a decent paying blue collar job. That's much more difficult today.

This is simply not true. I am in the industrial construction industry and we are starved for labor in all areas.

Is it true. It may not be true in every industry or geographic location, but it's generally true.

Look at nationwide statistics instead of anecdotal situations.

[feh]

Today's colleges do nothing to educate, for most kids it's some political indoctrination

Oh boy.

When comments like this are made, it's hard to take the poster seriously.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Oh boy.

When comments like this are made, it's hard to take the poster seriously.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-college-students-not-learning-much/

A study of more than 2,300 undergraduates found 45 percent of students show no significant improvement in the key measures of critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing by the end of their sophomore years.

Not much is asked of students, either. Half did not take a single course requiring 20 pages of writing during their prior semester, and one-third did not take a single course requiring even 40 pages of reading per week.

So what are they learning then?

[ua_guy]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-co...learning-much/

So what are they learning then?

"-Overall, the picture doesn't brighten much over four years. After four years, 36 percent of students did not demonstrate significant improvement, compared to 45 percent after two"

So, that's to say 64% of students demonstrated significant improvement after 4 years. Not bad.

55% demonstrated significant improvement after 2. Better than half.

"-Students who studied alone, read and wrote more, attended more selective schools and majored in traditional arts and sciences majors posted greater learning gains."

--This is pretty obvious.

[Singuy]

Disneysteve, you are right about how undergrad tuition is highly subsidized by grants, scholarships, and low interest loans. The cost of this type of education is still higher than 10 years ago, but not stupid high.

What is stupid high is professional school. You want to be a dentist? 53k/year(tuition only@our public university) More for MD, 30k a year for Pharm.D and OD. Then you tack on high interest rate of 7% and most of these loans are now unsubsidized..all these students are coming out with 200-300k worth of student loans.

Tuition was not even close to this high 10 years ago. Since healthcare was more recession proof, the applicants for professional schools skyrocketed resulting in the poorest graduates on earth. Imagine starting your life with a net worth of -300k @ 7% interest. These kids wouldn't see a house key for a good 10 years.

[disneysteve]

Since healthcare was more recession proof, the applicants for professional schools skyrocketed resulting in the poorest graduates on earth. Imagine starting your life with a net worth of -300k @ 7% interest. These kids wouldn't see a house key for a good 10 years.

There is some truth to this, but the "middle class lifestyle" still plays into it.

I'm a doctor. I graduated med school in 1990 with $102,000 in debt. That's equivalent to about $185,000 today adjusted for inflation, so I'm very familiar with what you're referring to.

Still, I managed to get married, buy a house, start a family, travel, etc. How? By living frugally and not buying into the "doctor" lifestyle. When I would pull into the doctors' parking lot at the hospital, my aging Camry was surrounded by shiny new BMWs, Audis, Lexus, Infinitis, Mercedes, etc. I packed my lunch to work every day (still do today). We shopped at thrift shops, yard sales, and flea markets (still do). We cooked most meals at home from scratch (okay, we don't do this so well anymore ). This was such an unusual concept that a national financial journal did a feature article on our family and our frugal lifestyle.

College is expensive. Grad school is expensive. But people greatly aggravate the problem by doing all of the things we always talk about: leasing cars, eating out every day, going on exotic vacations, surrounding themselves with high end technology, etc. You don't need that crap to have a comfortable "middle class" existence.