The Middle Class Life Style Is Putting You In Debt?

[corn18]

What would a service academy be considered (Naval Academy)? Would that be a state school or private school? I don't remember any political slant there. We swore allegiance to the constitution, the president and to the officers appointed over us. I don't remember any caveats WRT political affiliation.

Tom
USNA class of '88

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

And I'm sure many college students don't learn biology, chemistry, physics, math, etc. But I'm also sure that many dr, engineers, chemist, biologist actually did learn it otherwise it would be a sad, sad day when they don't know how the body works, or how to design something. There's a reason STEM is failing in the US but those who do go into it are learning.

I think people learn within their field, but we aren't talking about that right? We're talking about "getting an education" for it's own sake, which implies these glorious academic halls where our young people learn the arts and sciences, history, and literature.

I'm sorry but I simply don't see that happening.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Okay so you learn your field. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to go to college just for learning and many do learn.

[disneysteve]

We're talking about "getting an education" for it's own sake, which implies these glorious academic halls where our young people learn the arts and sciences, history, and literature.

I'm sorry but I simply don't see that happening.

Take a look at any liberal arts school around and you'll see students taking classes in various areas that have no direct connection to their majors. Most liberal arts colleges require students to earn credits in English, Math, Foreign Language, Science, Religion/Philosophy, History, Art/Music, etc.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Take a look at any liberal arts school around and you'll see students taking classes in various areas that have no direct connection to their majors. Most liberal arts colleges require students to earn credits in English, Math, Foreign Language, Science, Religion/Philosophy, History, Art/Music, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKaYnHlpD9M

[disneysteve]

We're talking about "getting an education" for it's own sake, which implies these glorious academic halls where our young people learn the arts and sciences, history, and literature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKaYnHlpD9M

I don't see the connection between students not being able to name a senator with what they are or are not learning in college. If they are studying "arts and sciences, history, and literature" they're not going to be paying attention to the members of Congress, unless they happen to have a particular interest in that area.

Personally, I've never had the least bit of interest in politics. It just isn't my thing. The same goes for sports. No interest at all. So I could no more name senators than I could name the top quarterbacks or hockey goalies or baseball pitchers or NBA centers.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I don't see the connection between students not being able to name a senator with what they are or are not learning in college. If they are studying "arts and sciences, history, and literature" they're not going to be paying attention to the members of Congress, unless they happen to have a particular interest in that area.

Personally, I've never had the least bit of interest in politics. It just isn't my thing. The same goes for sports. No interest at all. So I could no more name senators than I could name the top quarterbacks or hockey goalies or baseball pitchers or NBA centers.

C'mon, that's more civics than politics. There is a difference.

This conversation has veered way off track I think.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

College is an experience. But saying you learn nothing in college is crazy. Just going to college will likely broaden most people's horizons because like I pointed out you will likely meet people of other background. Perhaps your first gay/lesbian, transgendered, poly person. Or other religion or ethnicity. Perhaps you'll be assigned a group member or lab partner who doesn't speak much english or have a foreign TA or professor.

The nature of college is usually we're in our self-contained neighborhoods with people of similar socio-economic, racial/ethnic backgrounds raising kids similiar homes/family structures. Then you send your kid off to a place where people come from all different walks of life. Will that happen in the neighborhood you live in if you don't go to college? Probably not. Everyone living near you has the same life, experiences, etc.

So I'd argue going to college just exposes people to different circumstances. There is a reason why gay marriage is more accepting across all 18-30 year olds both conservative and liberal. Exposure. But it happened with segregation as well. Younger people were more tolerant and accepting and as the older people passed change occurred. College just happens to make it easier to be exposed.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

College is an experience. But saying you learn nothing in college is crazy.

I'm not saying I, or you, learned nothing. I'm saying take a look at people you've know who have gone to college, do they seem to know more about things not related to their degree?

I don't see it.

And you don't need to pay tons of money and go to college to meet people outside of you background. Where did that come from?

[corn18]

Today's colleges do nothing to educate, for most kids it's some political indoctrination, and a good place to do keg stands. Have you ever seen how little the average student knows after they graduate college? It's pretty embarassing.

You don't need college to become educated.

I had to go back through all the posts to find the root of your position. You seem disenchanted with the higher education system in the U.S. I only have a single data point which is me from 30 years ago. I graduated from college a much more educated individual, in more ways than book smarts. Maybe that was because I went to the Naval Academy and we focused on a lot more than book smarts.

I would like to find out if their is any data to support your hypothesis or if it is anecdotal. I looked and failed to find anything to counter your argument. All I have to offer is what I have offered already: my megacorp has thousands of open req's for engineers that we cannot fill due to a lack of qualified applicants. And yes, a BS is required to apply. Not sure how one could become a mechanical engineer without going to college.

Standing by for data.

Tom

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

All I have to offer is what I have offered already: my megacorp has thousands of open req's for engineers that we cannot fill due to a lack of qualified applicants. And yes, a BS is required to apply. Not sure how one could become a mechanical engineer without going to college.

Tom

I don't think college is useless, not for STEM, finance, medical, etc. etc.

I believe that college for the sake of "being educated" is... very overrated, and is hardly ever the case.

Try being thrust out into the real world, with a non-critical degree and tons of debt. That is a real education, let me tell you.

I know people who have gotten useless degrees for large amounts of debt, they would have been better off doing something else.

[corn18]

You're just stating a strawman. Never said college was useless, not for STEM, finance, medical, etc. etc.

I said that college for the sake of "being educated" is... very overrated, and is hardly ever the case.

This is what you said:

Today's colleges do nothing to educate, for most kids it's some political indoctrination, and a good place to do keg stands. Have you ever seen how little the average student knows after they graduate college? It's pretty embarassing.

You don't need college to become educated.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

This is what you said:

I went back and looked and yes I should have qualified that. In other posts I said that I don't believe kids learn much beyond their major, for the most part. But yes, I did leave it out of that statement.

I went to college and wouldn't have gone if I didn't think it was worth while. For sure. But there are a lot of blue collar jobs out there that pay well.

[disneysteve]

I know people who have gotten useless degrees for large amounts of debt, they would have been better off doing something else.

I totally agree with this (except for the use of the term "useless degrees"). There are degrees that lead to particular jobs that just don't happen to be high paying jobs like social workers, for example. That's fine. We need those folks just as much as we need the doctors and engineers. But going deep into debt to get a degree to get one of those lower paying jobs doesn't make sense. That's why we have community colleges and state schools. College need not be terribly expensive.

And I also agree that not everyone can or should go to college. We need tradespeople - electricians, plumbers, roofers, masons, etc. We need barbers and hair stylists. We need construction workers and retail clerks and butchers and bakers. Not everyone needs a college degree.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Weird I've met people who never leave the neighborhood they grew up in. What do you think the chances are they've been exposed to as many different people as they potentially might meet in college? Yes you can meet them working as well. But i think college of any sort outside of the neighborhood school where you went will give people opportunity to meet others seeking higher education.

But maybe myenglishcastle as a professor will weigh in. I still think most people in the same neighborhood are socio economically, racially, and religious more similar than not.