The Middle Class Life Style Is Putting You In Debt?

[Singuy]

But times changed Steve. Imagine today with 250k worth of student loans, where 250-300k for a house in a decent area, making your stagnated wage of under 100k. I can't imagine anyone starting a middle class life even not taking vacations and eating scraps all day. My salary seems to be slightly higher than yours and it took me a good 7 years of living frugually to pay off a 300k house and this is with no student loans (tthrew 85% of my paycheck at mortgage monthly). If my student loans were 250k..I would of just finish paying for it today...while eating ramens the last 8 years.

Your debt was 100k, your house was under 200k..of course you can start a family when being frugal...but with triple the student loan debt, double the house price, and barely an increase in wages..you can see how these new grads are broke for life. A lot start spending stupidly because they see no light at the end of their tunnel.

Put your self in these kids shoes today. Coming out with 250k of student loans making your salary of under 100k..and the norm is 250k on a house in a middle of the road area in the U.S. Is it really the same difficulty vs you in 1990 to have the same family and lifestyle?

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Let's not call new doctors, pharmacists, and other professionals "kids".

To answer the question of the title, no, the middle class lifestyle is not putting me into debt. But then, I do exert adult agency, and stopped thinking of myself as a "kid" well before I was even 18 years old.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/10/17/good-question-how-many-of-us-still-get-a-pension/

DisneySteve in 1990 42% of private companies had a pension and in 2012 it was down to 22%. With 92% of government employees. It looks like it's a 75% to 25% private versus public sector jobs as well. So more people work for private companies without pensions. http://www.thenewamerican.com/econom...in-most-states

Since it's been decreasing now I think we haven't seen the effect of people not used to retiring without pensions. I believe when we see how the lack of a pension affects people and they are working longer and only living on SS then the lifestyle of "middle class" will be revealed.

[JoeP]

College is expensive. Grad school is expensive. But people greatly aggravate the problem by doing all of the things we always talk about: leasing cars, eating out every day, going on exotic vacations, surrounding themselves with high end technology, etc. You don't need that crap to have a comfortable "middle class" existence.

We have people here paying off $100k+ in debt in a couple years. Why not attack college saving with the same level of dedication?

[pflyers85]

Put your self in these kids shoes today. Coming out with 250k of student loans making your salary of under 100k..and the norm is 250k on a house in a middle of the road area in the U.S. Is it really the same difficulty vs you in 1990 to have the same family and lifestyle?

If you come out with $250K of student loan debt and make under $100K, home ownership should be the last thing on your mind until the student debt is cleaned up or at the very least cut in half. In fact if your expected income is never projected to rise above $100K then its probably not very wise to go into that much debt for that particular degree from that school.

Even if someone did have that much debt and took home at least $80K they could get those loans cleaned up in under 8 years if they are really aggressive at paying back the debt and lived very frugally and minimalist. The problem is most millenials don't want to do that. They went to school and in their mind they are entitled to a certain lifestyle and they will add to their debt to make sure they can live that lifestyle.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

"-Overall, the picture doesn't brighten much over four years. After four years, 36 percent of students did not demonstrate significant improvement, compared to 45 percent after two"

So, that's to say 64% of students demonstrated significant improvement after 4 years. Not bad.

55% demonstrated significant improvement after 2. Better than half.

"-Students who studied alone, read and wrote more, attended more selective schools and majored in traditional arts and sciences majors posted greater learning gains."

--This is pretty obvious.

Let me walk back my position a little bit, I have no problem with education. But I don't think getting a general education and gaining work skills are mutually exclusive are they?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Let's be honest, it's not the dr, dentist, pharmacists, etc that have the real problem of student loans. Every time I see a problem it's someone with $100k in student loans and they are a teacher.

Now I have nothing against DS saying college is for growth, experiences, etc. But I know MANY teachers who went to private universities and came out with $100k in debt and their income unfortunately will never be $100k.

I know two in fact who went to Wellesley College, which doesn't really give scholarships except needs based. They went for the experience. Luckily their parents paid 100% but if they had walked out with debt how would they have afford it on a teachers salary? Which starting out was $35k? I'd really like to know?

More often the real problem with student loans is the people who aren't making a ton of money and went to a private school are the ones who can't dig out. I have cousins who went to a private university and came out and came out with degrees in communications and history. Thankfully their parents paid 100%, but knowing their jobs I doubt they make enough to have paid for school 100% even in 10 years.

So the ridiculous nature of going to college and coming out to earn $35k when you could make that without a degree sounds nuts.

[Nika]

Let's be honest, it's not the dr, dentist, pharmacists, etc that have the real problem of student loans. Every time I see a problem it's someone with $100k in student loans and they are a teacher.

Now I have nothing against DS saying college is for growth, experiences, etc. But I know MANY teachers who went to private universities and came out with $100k in debt and their income unfortunately will never be $100k.

I know two in fact who went to Wellesley College, which doesn't really give scholarships except needs based. They went for the experience. Luckily their parents paid 100% but if they had walked out with debt how would they have afford it on a teachers salary? Which starting out was $35k? I'd really like to know?

More often the real problem with student loans is the people who aren't making a ton of money and went to a private school are the ones who can't dig out. I have cousins who went to a private university and came out and came out with degrees in communications and history. Thankfully their parents paid 100%, but knowing their jobs I doubt they make enough to have paid for school 100% even in 10 years.

So the ridiculous nature of going to college and coming out to earn $35k when you could make that without a degree sounds nuts.

Hey, I went to an expensive private University! And I got a communications degree! And my starting salary was 35K a year.
I'm like a poster child for Livinglarge.

I did pay off all my loans. And our incomes are a bit better now.

[Singuy]

If you come out with $250K of student loan debt and make under $100K, home ownership should be the last thing on your mind until the student debt is cleaned up or at the very least cut in half. In fact if your expected income is never projected to rise above $100K then its probably not very wise to go into that much debt for that particular degree from that school.

Even if someone did have that much debt and took home at least $80K they could get those loans cleaned up in under 8 years if they are really aggressive at paying back the debt and lived very frugally and minimalist. The problem is most millenials don't want to do that. They went to school and in their mind they are entitled to a certain lifestyle and they will add to their debt to make sure they can live that lifestyle.

Home ownership is the last thing on these people's mind(not to mention they qualify for nothing when they show the banks their liabilities). This is the point I am trying to make. The pharmacist of 15-20 years ago had it good while the pharmacist now can't even start a family until at least 5 years after graduation. We are not even talking about the irresponsible types(going to expensive private universities getting a social science degree)..we are talking about probably the most responsible students you can meet on a college campus(getting an education from a public school that can produce a decent income with good job outlook)

Here's my example.

I graduated from Pharmacy School in 2007. My total tuition for all 6 years was 30k (2 years of free undergrad plus 4 years of pharm) My first job offer was 108k/year. The tuition was small enough for my parents to give me a full ride. If my parents didn't step in, my total loan amount would be about 80k after all said and done(tuition plus living expenses). This total amount of loans would of been FULLY subsidized as well.

I now work in a hospital in which we get new pharmacy students monthly. When asked about their tuition, this is what the SAME state school I went to is charging for 4 years of tuition: 120k. Of course not a lot of parents can afford that so we have students coming out with 220k worth of debt(after accumulated interests from unsubsidized loans, undergrad loans and living expenses).

What is the starting salary today? 110k/year from the same company that offered me 108k 8 years ago!

Now I can talk about how people are not frugal and loves to live a Dr.s lifestyle and blah blah blah. It doesn't take a mathematician to see that people who graduated before or during my time CLEARLY had a monetary advantage than people graduating today. 220k at 7% interest that will STAY with you till death is NO JOKE.

[My English Castle]

Oh stop with the indoctrination talk

I've worked at a large state university for 20 years and think I know a little about what goes on in most classrooms. Most of my students are overburdened by student loans, and anxious about their futures and the future of their families. There is very little "political indoctrination" going on. And believe me, every single student that passes my class has written a heck of lot more than a twenty-page paper, even if they enter it completely under prepared.

[Singuy]

I've worked at a large state university for 20 years and think I know a little about what goes on in most classrooms. Most of my students are overburdened by student loans, and anxious about their futures and the future of their families. There is very little "political indoctrination" going on. And believe me, every single student that passes my class has written a heck of lot more than a twenty-page paper, even if they enter it completely under prepared.

Perhaps the "political indoctrination" comes from the entirety of the higher education experience as a natural side-effect.

The more one learns about biology, chemistry, astronomy, geology, world history adding to having more minorities on the college campus can naturally get an individual to become "more left"(question the existence of God, believes in climate change, and more acceptance toward minorities and science).

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Perhaps the "political indoctrination" comes from the entirety of the higher education experience as a natural side-effect.

The more one learns about biology, chemistry, astronomy, geology, world history adding to having more minorities on the college campus can naturally get an individual to become "more left"(question the existence of God, believes in climate change, and more acceptance toward minorities and science).

College kiddies don't learn this stuff though. I will try to find the survey I was talking about... college kids are woefully ignorant about common science, mathematics and history, basically. The think they know a lot, when asked hard questions, they failed miserably. Hence, political indoctrination.

They don't know much more than high schoolers.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I think it is a natural side effect of going to college and questioning things. It's also a side effect of meeting people outside of your neighborhood, life, etc. You are bound to meet, work with people you normally wouldn't have the opportunity to meet. If you go to a large state school and board perhaps you'll be matched up with someone of a completely different race or religion. Even in small liberal arts college the chances are you'll probably meet people of a different background. I think the more opportunities and experiences one has typically broadens one's mind. So they because less fearful and less judgemental.

If it weren't so then the acceptance of gay marriage and transgendered wouldn't be so prevalent amongst the younger generations. People have grown up knowing more people who are gay and are more accepting than the older generation. You can see it in polls. What's changed? More exposure through acceptance.

Nika is a classic case of someone going to an expensive private school. But did she walk out with $100k of debt and $35k salary? How long did it take to pay off the debt? How long did you stay at $35k salary?

And I'm sure many college students don't learn biology, chemistry, physics, math, etc. But I'm also sure that many dr, engineers, chemist, biologist actually did learn it otherwise it would be a sad, sad day when they don't know how the body works, or how to design something. There's a reason STEM is failing in the US but those who do go into it are learning.

[ua_guy]

Let me walk back my position a little bit, I have no problem with education. But I don't think getting a general education and gaining work skills are mutually exclusive are they?

I'd agree those two things are not mutually exclusive, and I'd say that someone who has "work skills" (understood in the sense of trade) who has also pursued higher education, is better equipped than most.

I have a deep admiration for trade work. It's important just the same and I might have given the impression that I look down on it, but I don't. My quip is with the belief that obtaining a degree is a worthless pursuit given earning potential, especially when viewed in the short-term.

[Eagle]

I've worked at a large state university for 20 years and think I know a little about what goes on in most classrooms. Most of my students are overburdened by student loans, and anxious about their futures and the future of their families. There is very little "political indoctrination" going on. And believe me, every single student that passes my class has written a heck of lot more than a twenty-page paper, even if they enter it completely under prepared.

As someone who attended both a private and large state university I would definitely say there's political indoctrination going. Both in conservative and liberal circles for clarification. At least that's been my experience.

Perhaps the "political indoctrination" comes from the entirety of the higher education experience as a natural side-effect.

The more one learns about biology, chemistry, astronomy, geology, world history adding to having more minorities on the college campus can naturally get an individual to become "more left"(question the existence of God, believes in climate change, and more acceptance toward minorities and science).

This did seem to be the case in my experience.

But this thread is almost now taking a political turn. How interesting.