car loans and newer cars and electric. Run the math with me

[myrdale]

It's generous to think that gasoline and diesel supplies wouldn't be interrupted, contaminated, or that deliveries simply couldn't reach their destination in the event of natural disaster. Whole-home backup generators are becoming more popular and they typically run on stored energy like diesel or propane. It wouldn't be unthinkable to charge the car on that if you needed it. I think watching the weather forecast and charging the car before disaster strikes would be a good idea anyway.

Our fuel infrastructure is vulnerable. Considering we have seen hurricanes slamming the gulf, pipeline failure, and hacker attacks all significantly impact supplies over the past decade, I suspect we will see more of the same in the years to come. Personally this is part of the reason I never let my tank get below 25%.

But then again, our electrical infrastructure isn't immune to these issues either. Rolling blackouts, wildfires, and hurricanes all have an impact.

While I believe global warming is all horse pucky, I do subscribe to the idea of peak oil. There is only so much and we use a lot of it, and there isn't any new oil being generated. Sooner or later we will run out. I am guessing that is 200 years out, but working on solutions now isn't a bad thing.

[ua_guy]

Our fuel infrastructure is vulnerable. Considering we have seen hurricanes slamming the gulf, pipeline failure, and hacker attacks all significantly impact supplies over the past decade, I suspect we will see more of the same in the years to come. Personally this is part of the reason I never let my tank get below 25%.

But then again, our electrical infrastructure isn't immune to these issues either. Rolling blackouts, wildfires, and hurricanes all have an impact.

While I believe global warming is all horse pucky, I do subscribe to the idea of peak oil. There is only so much and we use a lot of it, and there isn't any new oil being generated. Sooner or later we will run out. I am guessing that is 200 years out, but working on solutions now isn't a bad thing.

I think we're talking about the financial logistics of owning an electric car, Myrdale. Some people have left in a huff because of political discussions and this forum not being a safe enough space for them, and I don't think the OP was asking for political opinions on EV's or global warming.

[myrdale]

I think we're talking about the financial logistics of owning an electric car, Myrdale. Some people have left in a huff because of political discussions and this forum not being a safe enough space for them, and I don't think the OP was asking for political opinions on EV's or global warming.

The OP asked "Why did you do it?"

My post is simply discussing why I would or would not do it. There is absolutely nothing political about global warming. Either its real, or its not. If it is real, either it is directly related to our burning fossil fuels or its not.

There is absolutely nothing political about peak oil. Either we have an infinite supply of oil or we don't. If we do not, then sooner or later we will run out at which point we are all going to learn about horse pucky again.

As for the math, I mean its fairly easy. If an electric car is $50,000 and a gasoline powered car is $25,000, you are going to need to save $25,000 just to break even assuming electricity is free, its not.

$25,000 / $3.50 per gallon = 7,143 gallons

7,143 gallons x 25 miles per gallon = 179,000 miles

179,000 / 14,000 miles per year on average = 12.8 years

For electric cars, 0.35 kW*hr per mile. $0.12 / kW*hr

179,000 miles x 0.35 kW*hr per mile x $0.12 /kW*hr = $7,518

And lets include another $1,500 for home charging.

In reality you're going to need to drive that electric car something like 16 years (i'm being lazy on working the exact number out) to break even on gas savings. So claiming we are buying an electric car for saving money is absurd, which only leaves two options. First we are buying it because it "looks cool" which is OK. It then falls squarely into the luxury category. Or second we are doing it because of "political" reasons. Assuming the OP FIL isn't trying to pick up chicks, that only leaves the latter.

EDIT
Another way to consider the math that is even worst would be:
$3.50/gal / 25 miles/gal = $0.14 per mile for a gas vehicle.
We already determined $0.014 per mile for an electric vehicle.

We have a real savings of $0.126 per mile.

$25,000 / $0.126 = 198,412 miles or 14 years to break even.

[ua_guy]

But why would you compare a $50k electric car to a $25k gas car, when you could compare a $25k electric car to a $25k gas car.

[MonkeyMama]

But why would you compare a $50k electric car to a $25k gas car, when you could compare a $25k electric car to a $25k gas car.

Exactly.

I was just going to say, it goes both ways. So if you won't choose the $25K EV (and immediately save all that gas money)... Then I guess we should be projecting all sorts of political crap (and wacky judgements) onto your decision?

[MonkeyMama]

EDIT
Another way to consider the math that is even worst would be:
$3.50/gal / 25 miles/gal = $0.14 per mile for a gas vehicle.
We already determined $0.12 per mile for an electric vehicle.

We have a real savings of $0.02 per mile.

$25,000 / $0.02 = 1,250,000 miles or 89 years to break even.

I don't have time to analyze your math, but it's off.

We save a heck of a lot more than 2 cents per gallon.
My math was done at $4/gallon and around 10 cents per kWh.

My 50 mile commute costs $1. The same commute was $10 in my prior vehicle.
That's $9 saved every commute day.

Edited: Updated gas from $5 to $4. Gas was only $4 when I did this math in 2018. Gas savings is obviously more today.

[MonkeyMama]

Oh yeah, the math (at ~10 cents per KwH) is $0.02 per mile. (To be clear, that is the amount I spend per mile).
I commute in my hybrid. The EV with the 5x as big battery is a little more efficient.

[scfr]

LivingAlmostLarge - Ignore your FIL! Given the age and condition of your cars, the fact that you like them, and family size . . . maybe when the kids are out of the house and you're ready to go to smaller cars might be an optimal time to switch to an EV? At that point, the cars might be old enough that you're ready to change. Maybe. For now, it sounds like you're doing what makes sense for your family.

Here's a comparison that might be useful. We bought a Prius Prime (plug-in hybrid). At the time the regular Prius was about $3K less. The federal tax credit was $4.5K. Hmmm . . . That doesn't mean buying the Prius Prime was a gimme decision, because as others have mentioned the battery is heavy which reduces MPG when you switch over to hybrid power. But I'm able to make my daily commute and we can run errands using all electric. So we switch to hybrid power only a couple times a month on longer drives. Also, the cargo space is a little bit smaller which matters a lot to us because we put a golf bag in the trunk regularly and a wheelchair periodically. Neither one can be put in easily without lowering a back seat. That's an inconvenience, but one we decided we can live with. If I had to get the wheelchair in and out multiple times a day it would have been a different story. Also on the positive side of the decision, we were building our new house and were able to have a Level 2 charger that qualified for county and federal tax credits installed very reasonably. So for us the Prius Prime clearly won out over the regular Prius.

We don't look cool driving it. But we feel smart.

[Like2Plan]

Also on the positive side of the decision, we were building our new house and were able to have a Level 2 charger that qualified for county and federal tax credits installed very reasonably. So for us the Prius Prime clearly won out over the regular Prius.

I suspect it would probably cost less if you were adding it into to new construction, but I am a little curious how much it cost (if you don't mind sharing). Does a Level 2 charger do the quick charge in 20 mins?

They don't sell the RAV4 Prime in our area (or at least they didn't last year when I was car shopping), but I considered going to a state where they did sell them to take delivery. (Last year the car buying process was a little crazy so I think that idea would have had as much chance of success as winning the lottery. ) We would have had to add a charging station. (We only have a 200amp breaker box, so I wonder if we would have to get upgraded service?).

[Like2Plan]

I think a more fair cost comparison of vehicles would be the same car as a ICV vs hybrid vs EV (if they have equivalent vehicles). But, getting an actual price might not be so straight forward. Last year, they added a 20% up-charge (over the sticker price) and added in the destination charge twice on the RAV4 hybrid that I was considering (and they didn't want to negotiate- it was take it or leave it). I don't know if they did the same for the ICV version. I thought for a while that I wouldn't be able to get any car for at least 2 years or so until the chip shortage eased up.

[myrdale]

But why would you compare a $50k electric car to a $25k gas car, when you could compare a $25k electric car to a $25k gas car.

Because the bounds of the question original question were not well defined. The OP did state a "new electric car..... say $40k". I included some cushion on top of that for what I felt was a more realistic expectation.

Comparing the savings on gas for a paid off working vehicle, that return on investment might be seen by the OP great grandchildren.

If the OP wants an exact comparison, the OP should provide exactly what the options are. There is probably a savings in buying a $50k Tesla compared to a $150k Ferrari. Unless the OP defines the limits though, it is all speculation from me and you.

[myrdale]

I don't have time to analyze your math, but it's off.

You're correct. It looks like I listed the per kW*hr price as the price per mile. I'll rework. Thank you.

EDIT: I believe I've corrected it. A 14 year ROI is better than 90. You'd have to be the judge if it was worth it.

[MonkeyMama]

For electric cars, 0.35 kW*hr per mile. $0.12 / kW*hr

...

We already determined $0.12 per mile for an electric vehicle.

I went back to try to make sense of this. You determined that electricity cost $0.12 / kWh
The math above is $0.42 per mile (0.35 x 0.12)

Our cars are more efficient *and* our electricity is cheaper. Thus my $0.02 per mile actual cost.

[MonkeyMama]

I suspect it would probably cost less if you were adding it into to new construction, but I am a little curious how much it cost (if you don't mind sharing). Does a Level 2 charger do the quick charge in 20 mins?

(We only have a 200amp breaker box, so I wonder if we would have to get upgraded service?).

You just need a 240 volt (dryer) outlet. I am not sure how that translates re 200 amp breaker box.

Level 2 chargers are not quick chargers. They are more "overnight" chargers. My hybrid charges in 4 hours. EV charges in 11 hours (EV has 6x range but charges faster).
I've been told that our cars are on the slower end of the charging spectrum.

Just plugging into a regular outlet is something like 4 miles per hour. ?? (Level 1 charging). Would be completely useless for our purposes but I've known people who have not bought chargers and just plug into a regular outlet when they are home.

Edit to add: *Fast* charging can only be done at public chargers, to be clear.

Also, we are the only people we know that were hoity toity enough to install a Level 2 charger at our home. It's really not necessary. I know several people who bought EVs this year and have no ability to charge at home. (I didn't know anyone before who charged at home, but it's just been a *lot* of new EV Drivers in our circles in the past year since I originally posted.) We do drive a lot of miles, and I think the charger was probably a lot more necessary for my hybrid. Only 50 mile range so I have to charge every week night. We charge our EV once every 2-3 weeks at home, in contrast. I still like the convenience factor and probably would have invested in the Level 2 for just the EV, but I can see why most don't care about charging at home.

[disneysteve]

I've known people who have not bought chargers and just plug into a regular outlet when they are home.

We rented a VRBO condo in Richmond a few years ago. It was all street parking. There was one guy who parked as close as he could to the building and ran an extension cord out his window to his car. Seemed pretty impractical to me.

I've said before that for EVs to really catch on, the charging infrastructure needs to change dramatically, especially in cities. In the city, folks don't all live in single-family homes with driveways and garages. If you live in an apartment/condo building or on many residential streets or you're in a commercial district, there needs to be a charging port at virtually every parking space. That just seems wildly unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.