Throwing in the towel on saving.

[Scanner]

Hey, I have been an infrequent contributor and I suppose this kind of a thread is a sort of desperate outreach for some advice or help. I'll try to be brief. I used to be a frequent and enthusiastic contributor here. then I got a divorce and just haven't recovered.

The thing is, she has and more. She is living in a 800,000 house given to her by her multi-million dollar brother. She has my kids on her brother's health ins. (I don't know how she pulled that off). The taxes alone on the house are 24K/year. She also has a live in boyfriend contributing.

When I ask my attorney that if means tested if I can be afforded any relief, the situation is this - very little. It appears child support guidelines in NJ are such that they are meant to be punitive. So if let's say I could prove she's earning 200K or 400K (through gifts), etc, my child support may drop 25 dollars/week. In other words, they look more at YOU vs. the situation. They shake you down for about 1/3rd AFTER taxes. And honestly, I wouldn't even care except she keeps threatening me with more and more legal action. It has really upset me. She is hardly a single waitress trying to make ends meet.

It appears that 1/3rd of my income after taxes is ciphoned off for a long time, about 15 more years.

Also, she put my oldest son in Drexel, which is the 7th most expensive college on the East Coast and I live in NJ, where you are expected to contribute, even graduate school.

I guess my question is sort of an odd one given the culture here.

How has anyone psychologically adjusted to just realizing that financial security is out of your grasp? Do you just focus on health? Live a life of credit? (which I have done out of necessity at times)

I know I will get the "Gee whiz, don't give up Scanner" but I think after awhile when you are on the hamster wheel you just realize that it mentally damages you thinking you'll ever get ahead when you are unable to. I don't even have a goal of getting ahead anymore; just breaking even would be great.

I am glad my kids are provided well for though, although I can't believe she keeps going after me while owning a half million dollar home or more (we had a 200K home before with a mortgage). . .I guess that's the story in a nutshell.

Thoughts?

[97guns]

If she earns more than you you might be able to hit her up for alimony, my brother had that opportunity and used it as leverage

[creditcardfree]

It is really too bad the state is so punitive!

I wonder what you mean by expected to contribute? Can the contribution be loans? Loans your child signs for? Can they hold you to paying if you made no decision about where the child attends? Does a portion of your child support end when your child goes to college?

Just thoughts. I don't know the answer. I would definitely try to find peace with the situation as it is.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

It sounds like your kids are approaching adulthood. Perhaps you can speak to them directly when they are legal, thoughtful adults about their support needs. Many an 18 year old has moved out on their own and made their own way. Yours might not even care to be babied through college (and grad school? wow.).

But their mother "put" the older in Drexel? I bet your child had some say in that.

[FLA]

IDK about NJ, in NY there is a per child percentage that the non-custodial parent has to pay. Like, my ex had to pay 25% for two kids, before tax (even I think that is unfair). But the wife's income is factored in somehow but it does not matter much, at least it didn't in our case. My ex hated paying child support, not because he hated his kids, he hates me and having to give me a penny. He was so nasty, I refused alimony out of principle (it wouldn't be much or last long so not as stupid as it sounds,lol). IMO, the most fair way I've seen is 50/50 custody, no child support, split fees according to income. Husbands are asking for 50/50 and judges are doing it around here. If there is huge income difference or retirement, they adjust somethings. But here, to go back before the judge, there has to have been a change in circumstances. I would get a book about the divorce process in NJ or look online and talk to your lawyer, to see if you have a legal change in circumstances. And can you handle 50% custody time?

I don't think judges care about who gifted her a home, how much the BF contributes, etc. Those people are not your kids' parents, they can pull the rug out any time and she would back starting over. I do believe they care if she is high income, especially more than you, but I think they mean income from a job, income from a BF is not income at all.

I've been on both sides on the fence, I actually felt bad for my ex in the beginning, but he made double what I made after I returned to work from part time to full time as soon as I knew there would be a divorce. It had to have been hard to have to pay me but after a while I stopped feeling sorry for him because getting support was like hostage negotiations for a while. I don't know why he didn't go 50/50, probably because he works a lot and is out of town.

Now I am ill, on disability and waiting for SSDI. My son was a typical teen and chose to live with his dad at 15, ex agreed in court to no child support back then but it's coming up again. Then DD, 16, is very driven to get into a great college, this kid works so hard it's worrisome. She lived with me but then she got to the point that she was scared, seeing me fall and tons of other crap a kid should not have to see. My ex petitioned the court for custody which was totally unnecessary, I knew how DD was feeling and I would not make her stay her and watch me get sicker, I couldn't drive her anywhere and dealing with my illness combined with her drive to succeed was too much (throw in a terminally ill grandmother who also lives here, not a lot of joy and happiness for a 16 yr old). With generous visitation, I would've agreed to let her go as long as she knew she could come back whenever she wanted. Boom, done, no ginormous legal fees, you just act in the best interest of your child. But my ex cannot do that, so this petition is never ending.

I am petrified about child support and college on SSDI income that 1/3 of it will go towards healthcare, meds, treatments, etc. Take 25% off the top first for child support, then that plus college I will be way below the poverty line and likely unable to pay for my healthcare needs. So now I see how it feels on the other side. I would love to give my kids the world, child support on my nurse's income would not have been easy but that is my obligation, those are the children I chose to have. But with income this small now, I truly am scared. But nothing I can do to change it.

I have never heard of divorced parents agreeing to pay grad school. That's taking it a bit far, IMHO. Take loans, get a job and go to grad school the way everyone else does it. My lawyer wanted to leave college to be determined when the time came up. I didn't do that because my ex is old enough to retire when they reach that age, so I was afraid he'd pay nothing. We agreed to each pay half of a state school tuition. Had I listened to my lawyer, I would not be in this position.

I would try to run scenarios by your attorney to see if there is anything you can do, one might be if the brother is paying their insurance, fine, but if he stops, insurance becomes her responsibility. I would try very hard to get private, expensive schools, especially grad school changed. See about 50/50 custody, no support. Do whatever you can legally. Then if you are still struggling so much would a financial advisor or therapy help? There's that nationwide support group for dads, I can't think of the name but tons of men around here go and put the bumpersticker on their car. A friend went and said he learned a lot of tricks of the trade to make things easier. I don't even want to know what that means, lol .

good luck, it sucks on both sides, for the kids and the parents. Well, maybe not so much for your ex-wife, lol.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

What is the whole situation? How old are you? How old are your kids? Why are you paying through grad school? I agree that seems unreasonable.

I want to understand how your child ended up at Drexel? Was that in the divorce agreement?

What happens if you die? Become disabled? You can't get blood from a rock. What happens if you move? I ask honestly because I know you are a chiropractor? Is that right? What happens if the business goes south?

Are you financially secure now? No one really knows how financially secure they are 10 years from where we are now.

What is your financial circumstances now? Can we make suggestions if you bare it here? Maybe we can help ideas.

This might be wrong to ask but have you consulted anyone else about your divorce settlement? I ask because perhaps the tack to take isn't she has X, Y, Z. But perhaps the point to look at is I am lacking X,Y, Z.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Become disabled? You can't get blood from a rock. What happens if you move?

Tough. The courts will often times jail you for failing to make child support payments. There is also the concept of "imputed income"... where if you income drops... tough ****. You still need to pay the amount you are "worth" (not making).

http://www.divorcenet.com/states/new_jersey/imputing_income_for_child_support

I thought student loans were bad but child support and alimony are much worse. A lot of poor fathers are regularly jail for failure to pay.

Bottom line: you owe your life to the random discretions of the judiciary.

[ua_guy]

Like everyone else who is trying to change their situation on here, how about a breakdown of what you're taking in, and where it's all going?

Your health/sanity should come first, regardless of the money situation. You have to have the energy to both accept things as they are, and a willingness to change them. It might not make you rich, but if you can get back to a spot where you're making headway every month, seeing progress will help!

[Bob B.]

I think ua guy is spot on with his suggestion. Seek advice as if you were a first post noob.

[Scanner]

I am not really trying to seek relief from anything. It is what it is to a certain degree.

I get that if she's living in a mansion and I'm living in a small bungalow, well, I guess that's just the breaks. IT's not a case of sour grapes per se. I am happy her and the kids live in a 800,000 home. I actually don't mind paying even if she's living in a mansion, even if it hurts. . .it's more the constant threat she's going to go after more.

THAT yes, I hate and resent.

Yeah, actually he had a scholarship to a State school and the mother didn't want him to go there with the girlfriend so she strong-armed him into Drexel. I mostly just supported him and tried to be thoughtful counsel. My attorney did say that she can't hold you accountable for a private school when a state school was there and a scholarship to boot. Still, it is expected that I contribute "something."

(Something = whatever the mood of the judge is that day)

Anyway, not really trying to solve anything financially. . .just "adjust" to not focusing on finances/saving.

It's a huge adjustment for me (pun intended ha ha).

I actually feel better about throwing in the towel. It's a relief.

[Scanner]

BTW, yes, to answer some basics here about divorce and non-custodial parent. . .there's a reason women go for custody. It's "HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE" and they usually end up with that advantage.

Anyway, someone made the comment of

A. "Is it about you and what you may have or lack?"
or
B. "Is it about what she has or may lack?"

I think the answer is A for the most part. Look at it this way, she could have 1 bazillion dollars (being a little ridiculous) and I make 50K and they'll ding you for about 1/3rd. Yeah, you may get a little "relief" for her making so much but for the most part, the focus is on YOU, not even the kids so much.

I'll admit what is bothering me lately is the kids are bothered as boys. They ask how mom can have so much and you are struggling? Not only that, but they are starting to become immersed in the "Snob Lifestyle" of the 1%. And yeah, that goes against my values.

I mean, at what point is it about "Putting a roof over kids heads" vs. "Maintaining a maximum lifestyle?"

You can imagine, without any prodding from me, they aren't too keen on the institution of marriage.

Anyway, this is NOT about my drama per se. I can't change the law and fight City Hall. . .I'd just rather adjust and show a different example to my boys.

I'm happy to get my entitlements from all of you when I get older and vote accordingly.

[ua_guy]

Your kids sound like they're at the age where they haven't found that adult appreciation for you as a parent yet; or they have, but they're still understanding what it really means as they see more of the world.

I don't think any of the lifestyle stuff matters so long as you are still a great father to them, and that doesn't mean having a lot of money. One day it will click for them and they'll look back and understand what you were going through.

[creditcardfree]

Just something to consider knowing you can't change the situation as much. Why give up? If you don't aim for something financially you likely won't get there at all. If you aim for saving $X a month, but achieve slightly less it is better than not saving at all. That would be my biggest concern for you...that you don't even try and then end up with nothing. I know I would regret that if it were me. I've found that having a goal (and blogging about it) helps tremendously in reaching the goal.

[Scanner]

Q: Why give up?

A: Sanity?

[creditcardfree]

Q: Why give up?

A: Sanity?

Sanity in the short term or long term? Short term...definitely take a break. Will you regret not trying for the long term though? Only you know the answer for you.