Throwing in the towel on saving.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Sanity in the short term or long term? Short term...definitely take a break. Will you regret not trying for the long term though? Only you know the answer for you.

Living on credit won't bring you sanity though. Lol oh lord no.

[disneysteve]

Hi Scanner. Sorry that things haven't been going well.

My advice, for what it's worth, is partly psychological and partly financial.

The psych part: You need to let go of some stuff. You can't change her. You can't change how she is living. You can't change the laws.

As for what to tell/teach your kids, be honest with them. Let them know the situation. Let them know the terms of the settlement. Let them know the position the law puts you in and how you are doing your best to carry on despite those restrictions. That's a good life lesson for them. They may not totally "get it" now, but they will one day.

The financial part: Get back to basics. Do you have a budget and do you follow it? Every dollar needs a designated purpose, and don't forget making "savings" one of those purposes, even if it isn't the recommended 20% figure. If expenses exceed income, do everything you can to fix it. Living on credit is not a viable option. Either work more or spend less or both.

It sucks that people can get so destroyed in a divorce. The laws governing that need to change. Until they do, though, you just need to hunker down and deal with it best you can. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[FLA]

I'll admit what is bothering me lately is the kids are bothered as boys. They ask how mom can have so much and you are struggling? Not only that, but they are starting to become immersed in the "Snob Lifestyle" of the 1%. And yeah, that goes against my values.

I mean, at what point is it about "Putting a roof over kids heads" vs. "Maintaining a maximum lifestyle?"

You can imagine, without any prodding from me, they aren't too keen on the institution of marriage.

I think it is crucial to address what your boys are asking, it may be that you are broke, but frame it as "Dad likes thing simpler," something to try to break that thought process that you are suffering because of their mom, even if it's true.

My ex made double what I made, had other income streams, he paid me the NYS minimum child support and that is fine. But proceeded to tell them he was declaring bankruptcy because of mom, etc. to the point they were furious with me and at 16 and 18 still believe I ruined Dad's life. That was totally alienation of affection, he signed saying he would not disparage me, nor I him. And I didn't, I wanted them to have a good relationship. He disparaged me at every turn and money was the big one. Whatever they wanted to do, they could not because "mom took the money, sorry, baby." DD was 8 and thought they would be "visiting daddy at the homeless shelter", sobbing. What kind of dad does that? Til this day, I still get screamed at about this topic.

You can try so hard for divorced kids to be great co-parents, but if you're the only one trying, they seem to end up hating you.

Good luck, if it helps, I hate your ex-wife, lol

[Scanner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq8loZlpa_8

I guess I am choosing to live like Master Oogway in this juvenile kid's movie. I can't be concerned about the future (saving). I can only live in the present.

You guys successfully are able to live in the future, make plans, execute them. Your destiny is different I suppose.

My life appears to be grounded in the present for a long, long time. I am unable to plan for the future. If I make more, the State takes more. I never thought I would understand guys who just "take off" but I actually kind of get it now. I am not saying I endorse it at all, but I definitely at least understand it.

As far as my ex, I don't disparage her nor do I even try to manipulate the conversation to make me look like a victim. I take special care to do that.

That said, she does not do the same. I am not here to actually give "ex-drama" but when my oldest turned 18, I told him I am done protecting her when he asks very specific and pointed questions. He has grown distant from her the last year. I will protect the younger kids though.

Anyway, I appreciate the psychological advice on transitioning out of becoming a saver.

I understand the ethic here and it's not a choice you can endorse but maybe you can have a little more sympathy to those who get to the end of life and you scratch you head as to how they ended up there.

[disneysteve]

If I make more, the State takes more.

I'm curious about this. Is the amount of child support you pay a fixed dollar amount or is it a percentage of taxable income?

Even if it is a percentage of income, you still come out ahead if you earn more unless that percentage is 100, right?

Sorry but I have absolutely no point of reference for any of this as I have no personal experience in the divorce arena. I mean I know people who have gotten divorced but nobody I was close enough to to be part of any financial conversations. So I'm trying to educate myself here too.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq8loZlpa_8

I guess I am choosing to live like Master Oogway in this juvenile kid's movie. I can't be concerned about the future (saving). I can only live in the present.

You guys successfully are able to live in the future, make plans, execute them. Your destiny is different I suppose.

My life appears to be grounded in the present for a long, long time. I am unable to plan for the future. If I make more, the State takes more. I never thought I would understand guys who just "take off" but I actually kind of get it now. I am not saying I endorse it at all, but I definitely at least understand it.

As far as my ex, I don't disparage her nor do I even try to manipulate the conversation to make me look like a victim. I take special care to do that.

That said, she does not do the same. I am not here to actually give "ex-drama" but when my oldest turned 18, I told him I am done protecting her when he asks very specific and pointed questions. He has grown distant from her the last year. I will protect the younger kids though.

Anyway, I appreciate the psychological advice on transitioning out of becoming a saver.

I understand the ethic here and it's not a choice you can endorse but maybe you can have a little more sympathy to those who get to the end of life and you scratch you head as to how they ended up there.

We have sympathy, but we're not lawmakers. What can we do and what can we tell you? Not much. Maybe the child support formula is injust, what can you do? You build your life and try to adjust as best you can.

Living on credit will just ruin your own life, financial well-being, and cause a lot of heartache. It's not the solution.

Edit: Reread your OP, what about the alimony response in the first post?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Scanner what do the numbers look like for alimony, child support, income and retirement? It may not be as dire as you think since you'll be used to living on so little. How much longer for child support and alimony?

[Nika]

I'll be the devil's advocate here -- looking at what she has will do you no good. I would say it does not even matter what her brother gives her as far as you are concerned - it is not his responsibility to support your children, and therefore if he does it, it should not diminish your obligations towards them. So I would not consider 1/3 income as punitive. Very difficult financially, yes.

Your ex probably is coming after you because when someone depends on mercy of others, without their own stable income, they would still feel insecure and want some income stream that is guaranteed to be there.
And there is obviously some resentment here on both sides.

If I was in your ex'es place here I probably would not waive my child's right to be supported by both parents just because someone else is willing to step in. But I also would not try to destabilize the situation by going back to court without valid reasons for doing so.

[Scanner]

Hi Nika:

No, I am not expecting her brother to support my kids. I never really thought of it like that.

It's just that my family and friends are starting to feel as if I am being had. She's living in a gated community and I'm living "frugally" and even my kids keep asking, "Why do YOU have to pay Mom money when she takes ski vacations and lives in a house with 6 bedrooms?" I do my best to look unphased by the question and give a straightforward answer - "Well that money goes towards food, shelter, clothing, that's what ti's there for." (they look off in the distance pondering that. . .I am not sure they really buy it)

To them, something is OFF about the whole thing and I am sure going to be reflected in future relationships.

That said, I agree, the law agrees with you - it's not about what SHE has or how her lifestyle is being "bankrolled". It's about what I have and what I should give, which is about 1/3rd after taxes. Now, let's bring this back full circle - how many people here can manage to save 33% of their income? I imagine MOST struggle saving 10% and are happy with 5%. See the problem? See the insanity of trying to live a savings lifestyle? I haven't even gotten into the threats of "I"m gonna recalculate you!" I go through. I am just. . .letting it go. . .

My solution is actually drastic perhaps, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility - just move to renting a room and don't really engage in overnights.

That would financially stabilize me and I just "visit" the kids vs. taking them overnights and supporting 1.3 households. (not that I am sure my support anywhere reaches the 800K house she owns now but you get the jist). There are other reasons for me to do that as well that I won't delve into but basically, it just comes down to simplification.

[disneysteve]

Scanner, have you sat down and figured out how much you're spending now to support your family vs. when you all lived together? I'd be curious to see that info. I wonder how close to 1/3 of your income you were spending before.

I've never really broken it down but certainly a good chunk of my income goes toward supporting my wife and daughter.

[Scanner]

Q: I'm curious about this. Is the amount of child support you pay a fixed dollar amount or is it a percentage of taxable income?


A: I am not trying to give a "non-answer" but the answer it kind of both. When calculating it, it really comes down to a percentage of what you make, what the other parent makes, how many overnights you have, who carries the health ins. . .it then gets put into this calculator and to answer your question. . .out comes a "fixed" number, minus any medical expenses that are extra and extra daycare (summer).

Which okay, you figure, "Great! You have a fixed number plus some extras." Yeah, but the thing is, very rarely does a male get below 18% AFTER taxes (can't emphasize that enough) and it can go up to about 30%.

And she can and has taken me back to court over such stuff as "who pays for the kids cafeteria lunches." Trying to manage legal fees with her, given she threatens a "recalculation" (sub peona tax returns, pay stubs) is another expense I have to fight eternally. . .another 10-15 years. LEt me give an analogy. . .you try living with practicing medicine without a malpractice policy with a threat of lawsuit everyday hanging over you. Imagine what that does to your psyche.

EDITORIAL:

I think the philosophy of the courts is "Well, if the father pays, it keeps him engaged." I guess many fathers feel like they are "paying to see the kids." (visitation and child support are ALWAYS separate issues - one is not tied to the other when rulings are made)

Honestly, as per my other post, I feel this philosophy of the courts actually does the opposite. . .it incentivizes a father to disengage - work more, gotta make more money, gotta try to get ahead on the hamster wheel, gotta make those payments. . .sorry kiddo. . .gotta work.

It's fine. . .I am only posting this for you to UNDERSTAND, not complain. It is what it is and you can't fight city hall. I admit I am hapless to adapt and thus just considering "renting a room/loft".

For my sanity.

[disneysteve]

considering "renting a room/loft".

For my sanity.

That might not be such a bad idea if it would significantly lower your living expenses. That would make it easier to make the support payments, cover your own expenses, and be able to continue saving for the future.

As others have said, it's very difficult to give any substantive advice here without seeing actual numbers.

[FLA]

This might be wrong to ask but have you consulted anyone else about your divorce settlement? I ask because perhaps the tack to take isn't she has X, Y, Z. But perhaps the point to look at is I am lacking X,Y, Z.

I just saw this and it's a great POV

[Scanner]

POINT: As others have said, it's very difficult to give any substantive advice here without seeing actual numbers.


COUNTERPOINT: And I don't mean to be so elusive. I could engage in scouring the budget for what could be cut out but the fact of the matter is, I don't think this problem (which I understand - you want to help) can be solved by eating Ramen noodles and clipping coupons. I fall significantly short every month and have to dip into the retirement.

This is like the National Budget and cutting the Endowment for the Arts, when we all know Defense, Medicare, Medicaid, and SSI are the cost drivers. With me, it's mortgage, insurance and utilities and, child support. I can't change child support obviously, so I have to change the living situation.

I wouldn't mind a loft with my own bathroom and saw some ads addressing this.

I think I need to take drastic measures as I stated. Ironically, it appears there is a rental room market for "divorced dads" out there as I looked at Craigslist today. Apparently, people like those tenants to some degree and serve that underclass, recognizing there are others out there with the same problem.

Okay, yeah, 'Underclass" is snarky but in a way, it's really not that far off.

(and no, I am not a victim despite my snarky comments. I feel bad for the kids if it comes to the fact they can't have overnights with their father because of room constraints but the important thing is they are sheltered, fed and cared for)

[FLA]

I forgot how old the boys are, sorry, but not having them on overnights, won't that weaken your bond as a family unit? I would think with most divorced kids, they look back at how they felt at each place, in a perfect world they consider each parent's home as "their home". If they aren't with you much for the normal everyday stuff, won't all 3 of you feel less and less like your own little family as time goes by?

If you have to get a loft, that's fine, where they sleep isn't as crucial as just being with you, hanging out. Get two of those nice aerobeds, the ones where you are raised up pretty high from the floor. When they come, cover them the way you would a traditional bed. When they aren't with you, pack them away.

Refer to the three of you as a family unit, try to act like a team. My kids were very young so this kind of talk helped all of us. We had a strong, positive, loving connection but my ex disparaged from day 1. This made the three of us feeling like our own little family nearly impossible, but I never stopped trying. Your kids need you, just to be near you, it's gonna be hard but overnights are important, IMHO

If your ex is disparaging of you, tell your lawyer, she cannot do that, have him send a letter stating that and if it continues, you will petition the court for alienation of affection (these cases are expensive, and practically impossible to win, but courts take it seriously). Just hearing about alienation of affection should make her nervous and stop. Maybe having the lawyer say something about her financial threats being inappropriate, thus all communication about changing finances are to be addressed only by the attorneys. She'll probably back off. Best letter my lawyer ever wrote was I was being harassed by him verbally almost daily, so he could only email and text about the children only, no talk of money, no phone or face to face contact unless there was an emergency. They had no choice but to agree or explain it all to the judge.

I know you are in a really ****ty spot, I know women who sound like your wife. But positive time with you is the best counteraction. Kids, boys especially, do not care much where they lie their head at night as long as it's with you. I'm sorry it's gone this way