Should struggling families tithe?

[Volkov]

This is a genuine (non-trollish) question -- would taxes count as tithe? If we supported a state that provided welfare to all the people (e.g. free healthcare and other benefits), then by paying the state a portion of our income through taxes, aren't we honoring AND helping?

[disneysteve]

This is a genuine (non-trollish) question -- would taxes count as tithe? If we supported a state that provided welfare to all the people (e.g. free healthcare and other benefits), then by paying the state a portion of our income through taxes, aren't we honoring AND helping?

Only if paying those taxes is voluntary. Each person can choose how much to donate to charity. We don't get to choose how much we pay in taxes.

Of course, if the government wants to lower my tax rate to 10%, I'd be okay with that.

[jpg7n16]

To answer your question from a few posts back, yes, I do believe that a struggling family should cut out both time (volunteering) AND a tithe (money) during hardship. They need every last dollar, AND every last second of time to put themselves in a better situation.

Then I misunderstood where you were coming from. Sorry. I completely understand and respect that argument.

I do feel that some people write a check to their local church each week without even thinking about it.

... However, take that same person and make them work at a soup kitchen for a weekend and sweat a little and go home exhausted... Someone like that would benefit personally much more than simply mindlessly cutting a check each week.

I completely agree with both statements.

I'm not saying that I believe the giving of time is not important or valuable, only that I believe time is discretionary while the first 10% of income is not. And personally, I don't think they're interchangable. I don't believe you can substitute the giving of money, with the giving of time; nor do I believe you can substitute the giving of time with the giving of additional money.

Though I do understand your views much better now.

[bjl584]

Then I misunderstood where you were coming from. Sorry. I completely understand and respect that argument.



I completely agree with both statements.

I'm not saying that I believe the giving of time is not important or valuable, only that I believe time is discretionary while the first 10% of income is not. And personally, I don't think they're interchangable. I don't believe you can substitute the giving of money, with the giving of time; nor do I believe you can substitute the giving of time with the giving of additional money.

Though I do understand your views much better now.

Yes. As I said earlier, I think that we are going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. I will agree that giving money is different than giving time in certain contexts. I just think that it comes down to the individual that is doing the giving.

[disneysteve]

JPG - I'm curious to hear your response to maat55's question earlier. If you are out of work and barely making ends meet with whatever part-time work you are able to pick up and tithing 10% of the little you are earning would keep you from paying everything, would you continue to tithe even if it meant going into debt to do so? If keeping the lights on would mean charging the bill to your CC when the tithe money would be enough to cover it, do you still tithe and take on the debt? Is there ever any circumstance that you can envision where you would accept not paying the full tithe? From all you've posted, I'm guessing the answer is no. If you addressed this earlier, I must have missed it as it has been a long thread.

[maat55]

Is giving your adult children money for food, tithing?
Is renovating an adult childs or in-laws house for free, tithing?
Is stopping to help fix a flat for a women on the highway, tithing?
Is seeing to any need of another individual(you are not responsible for), tithing?

IMO, people tithe/give without even thinking about.

[GaryArnold]

Is giving your adult children money for food, tithing?
Is renovating an adult childs or in-laws house for free, tithing?
Is stopping to help fix a flat for a women on the highway, tithing?
Is seeing to any need of another individual(you are not responsible for), tithing?

IMO, people tithe/give without even thinking about.

First of all, a tithe is a tenth. If you give 9%, that is not a tithe. If you give 11%, that is not a tithe.

The Biblical tithe belonged to God, and He gave it to the Levites. To give the Biblical tithe, or God's tithe, to anyone other than where God directed would be a sin.

Tithing is not giving to begin with. The Biblical tithe was a PAYMENT.

[maat55]

First of all, a tithe is a tenth. If you give 9%, that is not a tithe. If you give 11%, that is not a tithe.

The Biblical tithe belonged to God, and He gave it to the Levites. To give the Biblical tithe, or God's tithe, to anyone other than where God directed would be a sin.

Tithing is not giving to begin with. The Biblical tithe was a PAYMENT.

For you nitpickers, are the above giving and honoring God?

[disneysteve]

For you nitpickers, are the above giving and honoring God?

Of course they are. They just aren't tithing.

As GaryArnold said, a tithe is a specific, defined form of giving. There are lots of ways to give but only one counts as tithing.

[Snodog]

Of course, you are assuming here that anyone truly knows God's word. Or at least you are assuming that the version you adhere to is the "right" version. There are many religions all with their own version of God's word. Heck, even within one religion there are sects with slightly different versions, beliefs and observances. Judaism is a perfect example. Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform all have the same holy book, the Torah, but there are dramatic differences in interpretation and observance.

Unfortunately I must agree with this. If God wanted to make things clear He clearly failed. Or maybe we are stupider than He imagined.

[maat55]

Unfortunately I must agree with this. If God wanted to make things clear He clearly failed. Or maybe we are stupider than He imagined.

IMO, the Bible has been hijacked much like the Constitution.

[ddavis]

It's really up to the family, but as for myself I would say yes. Tithing always comes first - 10% off the top, then I work from there. I have always paid tithing since 8 years old and I've never gone wrong with this principle. The windows of heaven have certainly been opened.

[GaryArnold]

The windows of heaven have certainly been opened.

Here also, as it has been raining today. You know that is what God is talking about, don't you? Pouring out a blessing meant RAIN. Nothing else. Get a Hebrew dictionary and look it up.

[jpg7n16]

JPG - I'm curious to hear your response to maat55's question earlier. If you are out of work and barely making ends meet with whatever part-time work you are able to pick up and tithing 10% of the little you are earning would keep you from paying everything, would you continue to tithe even if it meant going into debt to do so? If keeping the lights on would mean charging the bill to your CC when the tithe money would be enough to cover it, do you still tithe and take on the debt?

DS - bear with me, cause this is how my mind tried to work through it.

Let's see. So if you take on part-time jobs, you're by definition not working 40 hours. So maybe 25 hours a week. At say $10 an hour. $250/week for a month is $1000 for the month. Then you'd have taxes taken out. Leaving maybe $850 or 900 for the month. (if tithing, leaving 765 or 810)

Depending on your expenses, if rent were $700, it's not possible to avoid debt whether I do or do not tithe. If you're trying to save your house with a mortgage payment of $800, it's not possible to avoid debt, tithe or not. And the tithe wouldn't be the problem, the rent/mortgage costs would.

{edit for clarification: what I'm attempting to say is that the problem of this scenario is not that 10% of their income is going to the tithe, the problem is that at least 700/900 = 77.78% of their income is going to housing expense, well above the recommended 28%. In order to justify paying rent of $700, there must be a reasonable expectation of post tax income of $2500 or greater. If that income stream does not exist, then $700 is too much, regardless of whether they tithe or not; and is the primary cause of any debt incurred during that time period}

On such a salary, the financial guidelines for rent costs are $238/month. (28%) If you were able to rent for that amount (through taking on roommates, moving in with family/friends, etc.) then there is no need for debt to pay for food, or utilities.

But if you only made $400 a month, that extra $40 wouldn't enable you to avoid debt.


So in order to argue for or against a person 'going into debt' because of the tithe (not because of something else); I'd first have to be able to create a scenario where that were possible, but I can't think of one. It's easy to say it exists, but it's not easy to create such a scenario existing.


Can you create a scenario with actual numbers that would show a family needing to go into debt over a light bill, because of them tithing?
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Or I could argue that you're already in debt on the home. A mortgage is debt. So does God not approve of your mortgage either? Or if you got laid off due to an illness, and you can't afford to pay your medical bills somehow - medical bills are already debt, so you're already in debt.

Now true, maybe you wouldn't be in as much debt if you didn't tithe while income was down, but we're talking $40-80 of debt a month. If you think that you'd incur $200 of debt each month, then you'd have $2000 of after-tax income, which would enable you to pay reasonable rent, and lights and food - thus the scenario 'light bill vs tithe' wouldn't really exist.

You would also be in much less debt if you bought a cheaper home, to the tune of $1000's of debt. You would have to incur debt by tithing on $800/month of income for just over 5 years (62.5 months) to equal the same amount of debt incurred on $5000 extra on a home.

The effect of the tithe on incurring debt is so minimal, that it's not worth skipping tithing to me.

Is there ever any circumstance that you can envision where you would accept not paying the full tithe? From all you've posted, I'm guessing the answer is no.

I really can't think of one.

it has been a long thread.

Yes. Yes it has

Much longer than I thought it'd turn out to be for sure! But part of that was me being too argumentative, and I kinda spurred on about 3 or 4 of these pages - when I probably shouldn't have. I'm working on fixing that about myself

[nick__45]

I give a minimum of 50% tips when I go to restaurants/bars. I take care of His children who are less fortunate than me. That is all He ask of me. I drive a extremely old but efficient vehicle so there shall be more resource left for all of His children. That is all He ask of me. I work hard to take care of myself and my family. That is all He ask of me.

All my God ask of me is to accept him as Lord and Savior. All He expect from me is to love him and his other children as He would himself love me. He never mention money.