Should struggling families tithe?

[GaryArnold]

Deuteronomy 26:12 (RSV)
12“When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your towns and be filled,

Deuteronomy 26:12 (NCV)
12Bring a tenth of all your harvest the third year (the year to give a tenth of your harvest). Give it to the Levites, foreigners, orphans, and widows so that they may eat in your towns and be full.

Deuteronomy 26:12 (DNT)
12When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thy produce in the third year, the year of tithing, thou shalt give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, that they may eat in thy gates, and be filled;

You have to select the proper definition of the word "increase."

You said, "Let's see... you started with the purchase of seeds (aka capital expenditures) you paid people to work the land (aka labor) you paid to water your land (aka overhead), and when the crops were raised, they produced more value than the expense it took to create them. (aka income)"

Not in any accounting book or class I am aware of, and I was raised and still live in a farming community.

When stocks increase in value, do you have income? OR, do you realize income or loss once you dispose of the stocks?

Do you report income when your house goes up in value?

The government has an INCOME TAX. No farmers pays an income tax on the value of the crops. Your assets go up and down in value, but there is no realization of income or loss until the asset is disposed of.

As a state government tax auditor with a Bachelor of Science degree in accounting, my entire career dealt with knowing the difference between assets and income. I taught the subject for the State of California. I taught literally thousands of state employees how to calculate income. I dealt with tax attorneys and CPA's on a daily basis.

Did you tithe on the INCREASE OF VALUE of your home while prices were going up? Do you reduce your tithe by the DECREASE OF VALUE of your home while prices go down? Do you pay your tithes bases on the VALUE of your assets - calling them income when they go up in value?

If you were to prepare a tax return for a farmer, are you going to include in his income the value of the increase of the crops and animals?

And finally, wage earners did NOT tithe under the Old Testament tithing commands. Jesus did not tithe. Paul didn't tithe. Peter didn't tithe.

More than one church has used me to teach a class on taxation and/or finances - the Seventh-day Adventists have used me. The Full Gospel Baptist Church has used me. A Church of God pastor has requested and received my services to help church members with their finances. And, to make it clear, my services are FREE to everyone.

[jpg7n16]

You have to select the proper definition of the word "increase."

How about the original Hebrew one?

Which is conveniently, the word listing I gave at the bottom - with it's proper definition. I even gave you a link to the scholar's definition.

Not in any accounting book or class I am aware of, and I was raised and still live in a farming community.

When stocks increase in value, do you have income? OR, do you realize income or loss once you dispose of the stocks?

You mean when you "harvest" them?

No one tithed while the crops were still growing. No one tithed based on the value of crops in the field. Only when they 'closed' their position in the field at harvest time. And then only tithed on the yield/increase.

How else do you account for the increase in crops except by an income of crops? Or do you only believe that cash is the only form of income?

Or do you mean to say that every farmer with a storehouse was not only required to tithe from the harvest, but also from his storehouses? If the tithe were based on assets, then they must have given 10% of all their silos' crops too.

And a rancher with 10 cattle, who have 10 calves born to him during the year, would have to tithe both 1 calve and 1 cow (to fulfill the tithe on assets)

So did they tithe based on total crops on hand? Or the increase in crops at harvest? Total cattle on hand? Or the increase in cattle on hand?

So if I'm going to tithe, should I tithe based on the money on hand? (assets) Or the increase in money on hand? (That would be income) And I harvest every 2 weeks.

[GaryArnold]

And then only tithed on the yield/increase.

How else do you account for the increase in crops except by an income of crops? Or do you only believe that cash is the only form of income?

Or do you mean to say that every farmer with a storehouse was not only required to tithe from the harvest, but also from his storehouses? If the tithe were based on assets, then they must have given 10% of all their silos' crops too.

And a rancher with 10 cattle, who have 10 calves born to him during the year, would have to tithe both 1 calve and 1 cow (to fulfill the tithe on assets)

So did they tithe based on total crops on hand? Or the increase in crops at harvest? Total cattle on hand? Or the increase in cattle on hand?

So if I'm going to tithe, should I tithe based on the money on hand? (assets) Or the increase in money on hand? (That would be income) And I harvest every 2 weeks.

The INCOME from the crops came from the sale or exchange of the crops. Whatever was received, whether it be money or product, that would be the income. The increase comes from a seed maturing into a flower, etc.

The tithing commands are clear. Increase of the seed and animals. NOT all assets. I never said they tithed on ALL assets. I said the tithe came from assets.

The fruit comes from the seed. Once the fruit is harvested, you have to plant seed and start all over again. Not the same with animals. And when God wanted the firstborn animals, no animal could have more than one first-born. That means once the cow had a calf, that first and only calf was the firstborn. The first calf born the next time was not the firstborn calf from that cow. It was a ONE-TIME deal. The same as YOU can only have one first-born child no matter how many children you have over no matter how many years. With crops it is totally different. Every season you have the firstfruits (which according to the scriptures could fit in a small basket and went to the priests at the Temple while the tithe went to the Levites).

Since money isn't listed as an item God commanded to be tithed on, you don't need any examples of money. You are taking God's specific definition and adding income and/or money to it. The Israelites didn't tithe on ALL increase. ONLY increase of the land and only animals in herds and flocks. No other animals. If they weren't in herds and flocks, they weren't tithed. They didn't tithe on increase in family size. If their income increased, they didn't tithe on that increase. If they had more money than last year they didn't tithe on that increase. ONLY animals in herds and flocks and crops - ONLY food items.

Income can be called increase. But I have said many times, God specified WHICH increase was tithable. You didn't tithe on every tenth dog or cat or any other animal that was not in herds and flocks.

[jpg7n16]

I never said they tithed on ALL assets. I said the tithe came from assets.

And cash is what exactly? A liability??

And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.
Genesis 28:22

And though I seem to be the only one here with a pro-tithing stance, at least it's nice to know there are others out there that have similar beliefs. Like Thomas Aquinas. Interesting read, as he considers similar objections to your's, and yet comes to different conclusions than you do. (much as I have)

Of Tithes (Four Articles)

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I get that our opinions differ. That I see it as a principle for your income, as a way to honor God from your wealth (Prov 3:9), and you see it as literally only applying to crops and livestock. I understand that side of the argument, but I disagree with it. We could sit here quoting the same verses to one another forever - as we'll each read them differently. You'll see what you want to, as will I. You'll think I'm wrong, I'll think you're wrong.

So maybe the SavingAdvice world would be better off if I went back to honoring my policy of ignoring your posts. What good will come of this? What more can be said??

Insult me all you want. Hold to your 'crops and cattle ONLY' belief all you want. Ridicule my belief all you want.

I just think it'd be better if I didn't reply to you any more. I knew nothing good would come of re-engaging you in discussion. Should have stuck with my gut on that one.
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I meant this thread as a way to discuss whether people should or should not tithe. To get people who never thought of the issue to evaluate both sides of the argument for themselves. And I got carried away in the debate. To anyone I've offended with all this arguing: I'm sorry (includes you Gary).

And for what it's worth, I've noticed I tend to do that. This isn't the first argument I've gotten carried away with. I'm working on improving myself, and that's one thing I'll be trying to improve going forward.


I see tithing as a principle to be applied in both good times and bad. So if you see me on the streets, or post asking advice about your budget and whether you should cut out tithing or not - that's what I'll tell you.

That's my story - and I'm stickin to it.

[GaryArnold]

And cash is what exactly? A liability??
And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.
Genesis 28:22

To finish my part here, cash is an asset - one that God never commanded to tithe on.

As far as Jacob, that would be like me telling God, IF you let me win the lotto, I will give you a tenth of it all. However, even then, God would have to tell me just HOW to give it to Him. We don't really know whether Jacob in fact ever gave a tenth.

Three years ago I wouldn't have had any argument with you on this topic. Once my pastor asked me to teach a Sunday School Class on finances, I began to study the topic in detail. I was shocked. Everything I was reading was the opposite of what I had been taught in church. I approached my pastor and told him what I had come up with. He disagreed with me, but said he would do his own study. Within two weeks he stopped quoting Malachi 3, robbing God, and a few weeks later stopped teaching tithing.

Another pastor I respected agreed to meet with me. He also disagreed with me but also said he would do his own study on the topic. A short time later I attended services at his church and he also had stopped teaching tithing.

My favorite pastor of all time, the one I thought was the most honest and upright person I had ever known, also agreed to meet with me. When I started telling him of my studies, he stopped me and told me he knew I was right, but that he had to teach tithing the way he does because people just don't want to give. He said if he didn't make people believe they are robbing God they wouldn't give enough to keep the church doors open. I was shocked and disappointed. I can no longer respect this pastor even though he was honest with me. Since that meeting I have become aware of many others who have approached their pastors and have been given the same answer I got.

From the beginning of my studies I was hoping my pastor could show me where I was wrong. I actually wanted to be wrong because I didn't want to believe so many pastors are out there either lying to their congregations, or just don't understand the scriptures as I honestly believe I do. I begged The Lord to reveal the truth to me. I begged The Lord to please NOT let me be a false teacher. Over a period of ten days The Holy Spirit first spoke to me, then took me to the scriptures to give me a basic understanding of God's intentions regarding His tithe.

I do not mean to demean anyone, or insult anyone. My own brother was one of the first to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. He has been a Christian and in the church at least ten years longer than me and told me I couldn't possibly be right. Then he asked his own pastor, and when he saw how his pastor answered his questions without ever really giving any scripture to back it up, he did his own study. Now he believes that I am 100% correct regarding the tithe.

I have had to deal with the people closest to me, many of whom said I had to be wrong. Now most of them have taken the time to do their own in-depth study and they have come to the same conclusions I have on this topic. Others merely refuse to discuss the topic with me, and refuse to even give me scripture to back up their own beliefs.

This makes me wonder WHY they believe what they believe. It's very hard to live all your life believing in something and then find out you had been taught a man-made doctrine.

I can't change anyone's beliefs, and don't want to. My purpose is to present what The Spirit has shown me. Now it is up to those who have heard my arguments to do their own research and make their own decision. Maybe some feel they have already done an in-depth study and are satisfied with their current beliefs.

Whatever your beliefs are, FOLLOW THEM. Don't believe one thing and do another. I believe that if you follow your own beliefs, you will be blessed. If The Spirit leads you to tithing, then tithe. I wouldn't want anyone to go against their own beliefs. I only want my brothers and sisters in Christ to have an open mind and to enter their research without prejudice just as I tried to do when I first started to study this topic.

God Bless every one on the blog. I love you all, and regardless of how I have come across, I do respect you and your beliefs.

[maat55]

[QUOTE]

6. It is ok to give of your time instead.

I was thinking of this today. If someone was earning less than their normal wages due to a recession, they could increase their earnings by tithing with their time.

If you earn 10 dollars an hour, and you get a check of 400 dollars, you could keep the 400 and donate 4 hours of time to the church or other charity. IMO, you can pay your tithe at the same wage you earn your income, with time served.

[SnoopyCool]

And though I seem to be the only one here with a pro-tithing stance, at least it's nice to know there are others out there that have similar beliefs.

You're not the only one on here taking a pro-tithing stance.

[Snodog]

[QUOTE=maat55;278226]

I was thinking of this today. If someone was earning less than their normal wages due to a recession, they could increase their earnings by tithing with their time.

If you earn 10 dollars an hour, and you get a check of 400 dollars, you could keep the 400 and donate 4 hours of time to the church or other charity. IMO, you can pay your tithe at the same wage you earn your income, with time served.

I agree thats a great idea -even if the person is unemployed. That person has a surplus of time and maybe they can do something that looks good on a resume.

Time = Money

[jpg7n16]

You're not the only one on here taking a pro-tithing stance.

You're absolutely right. I was focusing too much on the negative. Oops

I agree thats a great idea -even if the person is unemployed. That person has a surplus of time and maybe they can do something that looks good on a resume.

Time = Money

hmm see I always think the tithe should be of income. If you're unemployed, you have $0 income so you don't need to tithe at all.

I'm all for people giving of their time, I just don't think it replaces tithing. I think it's discretionary giving.

So if you're unemployed, there's no need to tithe at all. It's now your job to look for a job. Any giving of your time is discretionary (not a tithe).
If your family is struggling, your time might be better spent looking for extra/higher paying work.
If you're doing well, absolutely give of both your time and money. Giving of any kind is always valuable. And time is a very valuable thing to give.


Having said that, I'd have a very hard time telling someone not to give a little time if they have it available and want to. I mean you can only work so much in one week. Even if you're working 50 hours, there's still a lot of time for other pursuits. (and yeah it'd look good on a resume too)

But if they're giving like 5-10 hours each week, and are struggling to make it, that should probably change IMO.

[disneysteve]

I always think the tithe should be of income. If you're unemployed, you have $0 income so you don't need to tithe at all.

This has come up several times in the thread and I think you may be missing the point being made on this issue. Yes, if you are unemployed and have zero income, there would be no tithe. But many people who are unemployed do get some income here or there from a temp job or something part-time or mowing a few lawns or whatever. In those cases, I think every dollar is needed by the individual and his/her family and shouldn't be going to charity at that point.

Here's an example. I left my job at the beginning of February 2000. I did not have another job lined up so I was unemployed with zero income. We cut out a bunch of discretionary spending and charitable giving during that time (actually we had cut stuff even before that in anticipation of me leaving the job to bulk up the cash reserves). However, I was selling actively on ebay and bringing in as much as a couple thousand dollars per month. That came nowhere near replacing my regular 6-figure income, though. So even though there was some money coming in, we still didn't give any money to charity during that period because we needed whatever came in to help reduce the burn rate on our savings.

I took a new job in mid-April but initially started as part-time earning about half of what I had earned at the old job. We still kept expenses down and did not resume the charitable giving because we had to pay our bills and rebuild our EF. We didn't feel that we were earning enough, given our expenses, to be giving money away. Once my income got back in range to what I had been earning previously, we got back on track with our charitable giving and some of our discretionary spending.

I understand that you would have had us donate 10% of the ebay income to charity but that just wasn't reasonable IMO given the circumstances. That would have used up our EF faster and had a greater impact on our personal financial well-being going forward. I had no idea how long I would be unemployed. Maybe if I knew it would only be 2-3 months, I would have acted differently but I didn't know that. It could have been 2 months. It could have been 6 months. I needed to manage our available funds to stretch them as long as necessary.

[GaryArnold]

I feel compelled to post one more time.

For those who feel that tithing is required by God today, and that God requires tithing on income, the issue should be settled. You tithe regardless of the circumstances. What makes the difference whether you make $10,000 a month or $500 a month. If it's a requirement of God, how could you not tithe? How could God make it a REQUIREMENT but let you get by without tithing during hard times? It's either a requirement or it isn't. There shouldn't even be any discussion.

Now for those who feel tithing is not a requirement, but is a good thing to do, that is a totally different discussion.

If you believe you have to tithe to be obedient to God, how could you not tithe?

If you believe you are robbing God if you don't tithe, how could you not tithe?

Income is income whether it comes from your regular job, from selling on eBay, from unemployment benefits, etc.

I just cannot understand how anyone could believe that God requires the tithe on their income, but they make excuses for not tithing.

[disneysteve]

For those who feel that tithing is required by God today, and that God requires tithing on income, the issue should be settled. You tithe regardless of the circumstances.

Now for those who feel tithing is not a requirement, but is a good thing to do, that is a totally different discussion.

Exactly right. Some folks see tithing as a black and white issue. It must be done no matter what. And that's fine. I respect that belief and those folks should behave accordingly.

I also respect the folks who believe charity is discretionary.

This is why tithing discussions never really get anywhere or accomplish anything because neither group will ever alter the beliefs of the other, nor should they try. Just respect everybody else's beliefs.

[jpg7n16]

This has come up several times in the thread and I think you may be missing the point being made on this issue. Yes, if you are unemployed and have zero income, there would be no tithe. But many people who are unemployed do get some income here or there from a temp job or something part-time or mowing a few lawns or whatever. In those cases, I think every dollar is needed by the individual and his/her family and shouldn't be going to charity at that point.

Well I really do get that. For you Family and self is the highest priority so cut back whenever that's in jeapordy. I get that. I really do.

What I don't get is the mindset that "well I can't give money cause I need every penny for my family, but if you'd like 4-8 hours of time that's okay"; those 4-8 hours are just as needed as the money - and could be used to make even more than a tithe (through overtime), so why is one okay, but not the other? If every dollar is needed, shouldn't every available hour be needed as well? I know some hours are not available, as you need time to sleep and eat and just rest and be with family. But if you have 4-8 hours each week to work for free, and you need money, why not try to work for pay in those hours? Or use them to search for higher paying work that can free up time later?

I don't understand that, but am honestly trying to see where you guys are coming from.

[SnoopyCool]

I would like to add to the conversation this: for many people, tithing is a commandment with the promise of help from above. My family has given 10% of our income because we have believed that we would be helped along in those things we needed. And it did help us, I truly believe. So while it might not have made the best sense to many people, there's another dimension to the payment of tithes and offerings that should be recognized here. In my opinion, it is a matter of faith. So my answer to the original question is "yes, struggling families should tithe." And perhaps most especially if those families are struggling financially.

[GaryArnold]

A few days ago a woman posted on a tithing blog something that I think some of you should see.

She said tithing was not an option. It was mandatory. She said she and her children were being kicked out of their apartment for failure to pay the rent, but she paid her tithes. She said there are times when she doesn't have food for her children, but she pays her tithes. She said she isn't going to let her children put God against her.

Some time ago a woman went to her pastor and told him her husband was terminally ill and required expensive medicine. She only had enough money to EITHER tithe or get his medication. The pastor told her to tithe. She purchased the medication for her husband and left that church.

Now, IF you believe tithing is commanded of us today, on our income, then I guess you believe the tithe comes before food for your children, and the tithe comes before needed medication.

IF those are your beliefs, may God help you.