Should struggling families tithe?

[jpg7n16]

I think this would have been a much simpler discussion had you posted this first.

Probably. I'm working on better expressing my views.

I respectfully disagree. My first priority, always and forever, will be myself and my family. I will do whatever I need to do to service the needs and well-being of us before I worry about the needs of anyone else.

I think that pretty well sums it up.

I totally understand and respect that

[GaryArnold]

In my view, it takes more than a 10% increase in income to get out of poverty.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others
Matthew 23:23

Notice that Jesus says they should continue to tithe.

Don't assume the widow had no family to support (see post on this same topic made earlier in thread)

1 - Since you believe it takes more than a 10% increase in income to get out of poverty, just what percent do you think it would take? 11%? 15%? 200%?

2 - In Matthew 23:23 Jesus was speaking to those under the Mosaic law, not to anyone else. And notice, he didn't tell them they should tithe on their income, but rather on their herb gardens - crops (assets that come from God's miracles).

3 - Concerning the widow - the tithe was partially used to help the widows, orphans, etc. The poor didn't pay the tithe, they ate from it.

Notice Leviticus 27:32 - every tenth animal was the tithe. If there was only an increase of 9 animals that year, none were tithed. If there were 19, only 1 would be the tithe. Not ten percent. The TENTH one out of every ten.

To be a Holy tithe the tithe had to come from the Holy land. Any crops or animals outside the Holy land were not considered clean and could not be accept as a Holy tithe. Yet God, Himself, claimed His tithe to be Holy; therefore, if it doesn't come from the Holy land, God doesn't accept it as His tithe.

We all have our beliefs, but sometimes it is wise to determine just where our beliefs came from. Sometimes we believe something because it has been told to us over and over again.

Question: How do we put God FIRST in our life with our money (income)?

Before answering, please consider the following:

The gospel is FREE to everyone. There is no charge for the gospel.

When you go to a seminar, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to a concert, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to social events, you usually have to pay to attend.

Why does one "go to" church? Maybe for the following reasons:
1. For instruction / education in God's Word
2. To worship The Lord
3. For prayer and/or to pray
4. For entertainment (the music, etc.)
5. For fellowship / socializing

WE go to church so that WE can get instruction and education in God's Word, so that WE can worship The Lord, so that WE can participate in prayer, so that WE can be entertained and enjoy the music, and so that WE can fellowship or socialize.

WE benefit from going to church services. When WE give our offerings, is it not to PAY for what WE have received from the service? Is that giving to God, or is that paying for a service WE have received?

Who is getting the money? Is it God? Or does the money go to PAY for salaries, the building, utilities, etc., ALL of which WE benefit from?

In the Old Testament, God commanded the tithe be paid to HIM, and HE directed the Israelites to take HIS tithe to the Levites. HE gave HIS tithe to the Levites. Offerings to God were heave offerings, or burnt offerings, or wave offerings.

In the New Testament, God does not tell us HOW to give to HIM other than to give to the poor. God did NOT direct HIS gifts be taken to any church.

IF giving to the church is giving to God, then I have to conclude that when I subscribed to XM Satellite Radio I was giving to God because I listen to Christian music. When I purchased my car was I giving to God? After all, I use the car to go to church, and many times have taken someone else to church. When I bought my Christian T-shirts, was I giving to God? I am spreading the Word by wearing those T-shirts.

WHO determine what is giving to God? YOU, or the scriptures?

[parafly]

I just have a priority list:
1) God, 2) Family & Self, and 3) Others

I hold to that for financial priority too, in good times and bad. When push comes to shove - who gets cut out?

If this is a financial priority list, how exactly do you give money to God? This is just my opinion, but tithing would fall into the "Others" category.

[bjl584]

If this is a financial priority list, how exactly do you give money to God? This is just my opinion, but tithing would fall into the "Others" category.

Giving money directly to God is impossible. All that you can do is to give your money to the church or to charities and hope that they will be responsible stewards of it. (Remember Jimmy Swaggart.)

[parafly]

Giving money directly to God is impossible. All that you can do is to give your money to the church or to charities and hope that they will be responsible stewards of it. (Remember Jimmy Swaggart.)

Agreed, which is why it falls into the "Others" category. I agree with disneysteve, and I would never put tithing above myself and my family.

[Snodog]

I studied this years ago and came to pretty much the same conclusions as GaryArnold.

1. The tithe is an Old Testament law and it was never money. Christians are not under Old Testament law but under the law of Christ which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself”

2. The tithe was actually 23.3% and was never giving. It was much more like paying taxes. There was nothing voluntary in paying a tithe.

3. The poor did not tithe - only farmers. Still, even if you had an increase of 9 cattle you did not tithe. Part of the tithe was given to the poor. Jesus would not have tithed.

4. Giving is encouraged in the New Testament but never required.

5. Personally I think it is wrong to tithe if you are in dire straights and can't pay your bills. These are the people the church should be helping and not vice versa.

6. It is ok to give of your time instead.

7. It is ok to give to other worthwhile charities besides your church.

*These are just my own opinions formed from my interpretation of scripture. As a fallible human it is possible that I am in error so I would encourage anyone to not go by what I say but instead study for themselves.

[parafly]

Just to add, tithing does not need to be strictly monetary. If you are struggling family or have little to no income, you can always volunteer at a number of different organizations which help society in numerous ways. To say that tithing must be a monetary donation of 10% of income is short sighted.

Personally, I do not attend church, but find various ways of being a giving person by volunteering at a homeless shelter and fostering rescue dogs.

[bjl584]

While I feel that giving money to the church is important for the operating costs associated with running the facility and with spreading their message, I think that giving money to other charities that help the sick or poor are equally as important and beneficial to society.

[jpg7n16]

1 - Since you believe it takes more than a 10% increase in income to get out of poverty, just what percent do you think it would take? 11%? 15%? 200%?

It is based on so many factors that it is not possible to give an exact percentage.

2 - In Matthew 23:23 Jesus was speaking to those under the Mosaic law, not to anyone else. And notice, he didn't tell them they should tithe on their income, but rather on their herb gardens - crops (assets that come from God's miracles).

Funny, I think everything He ever said was to those under the Mosaic law. When He said, "Love your neighbor," He was speaking to Jews who were under the law. Does that mean I shouldn't love my neighbor? Of course not.

It's amazing that you consider crops growing to be a miracle of God, but the ability to use your body to achieve other goals as your own doing. The ability of my fingers to type is just as much a miracle as crops growing from the ground.

After all, man planted the seed, man watered the fields, man tilled the ground, man fertilized the soil, man harvested the crops, man sold those crops in the market. But God enabled the man to do it all, and He created the principles that cause the crops to grow.

So why does God get credit for crops, but not accounting? The brain and eyes are miraculous as well, and He created the principles that let the books balance. We should be thankful for however God chooses to provide for us, whether that's farm labor, or teaching, or medicine, etc.

3 - Concerning the widow - the tithe was partially used to help the widows, orphans, etc. The poor didn't pay the tithe, they ate from it.

And yet Jesus commended the woman for her gift. You would say it was irresponsible.

Notice Leviticus 27:32 - every tenth animal was the tithe. If there was only an increase of 9 animals that year, none were tithed. If there were 19, only 1 would be the tithe. Not ten percent. The TENTH one out of every ten.

“The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep

You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God
Exodus 34:19, 26

Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce
Proverbs 3:9

To be a Holy tithe the tithe had to come from the Holy land. Any crops or animals outside the Holy land were not considered clean and could not be accept as a Holy tithe. Yet God, Himself, claimed His tithe to be Holy; therefore, if it doesn't come from the Holy land, God doesn't accept it as His tithe.

24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses
Deuteronomy 14:24-25

Question: How do we put God FIRST in our life with our money (income)?

I have already told you my belief on this question.

The gospel is FREE to everyone. There is no charge for the gospel.

100% Agreed.

I never said "tithe or die" "tithe or go to hell" - because neither of those are true. You cannot purchase salvation. Nonetheless, you should honor the Lord with your increase. Prov 3:9

Who is getting the money? Is it God? Or does the money go to PAY for salaries, the building, utilities, etc., ALL of which WE benefit from?

If Christians are the only ones benefitting from the Church, then the Church is failing in it's job.

The tithe goes to the church that the Gospel of the Kingdom of God may be preached. Not to make it's members comfy. If you feel your particular local church body is not handling the money in the way it should be - then give to a different church that is handling God's money properly.

Buying a radio does not towards the tithe, but giving your money to a radio ministry that the Word may be spread to listeners around the world would.

WHO determine what is giving to God? YOU, or the scriptures?

You should give to God according to your best understanding of the Scriptures.

Which my understanding is to honor the Lord with the firstfruits of my wealth (based on the several passages above) - whether that's a little or a lot.

Obviously you interpret them differently than I do, so you won't give in the same way I do.

[jpg7n16]

While I feel that giving money to the church is important for the operating costs associated with running the facility and with spreading their message, I think that giving money to other charities that help the sick or poor are equally as important and beneficial to society.

All the bread in the world will not save someone's soul.

I believe charities and organizations serve immense purposes in helping meet the physical needs of those who have them. Red Cross, Salvation Army, Food banks nationwide, etc.

So many great orgranizations. But which is more important: to feed someone's body? or to feed their soul?


If you don't think that giving to the Church equates to giving to God, there's not really anything I can say. How else would you give to Him? Burn up your cash? Grow some tomatoes in your backyard and burn them on a makeshift altar?

If you give food to the poor, Jesus says it's the same as giving to Him - but if someone only feels they gave food to a poor guy, not directly to Jesus, what can be said?

So if I give my money to a church who helps people find salvation, how is that different than giving food to a homeless person? I have helped feed their soul, which (to me) is more important than their body.


Nonetheless, if we have the money available, it's preferable to give to both. Feed the body AND the soul. We should not neglect charitable organizations, as they serve wonderful purposes for society.

[GaryArnold]

It's amazing that you consider crops growing to be a miracle of God, but the ability to use your body to achieve other goals as your own doing. The ability of my fingers to type is just as much a miracle as crops growing from the ground.

Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce
Proverbs 3:9

24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses
Deuteronomy 14:24-25

The tithe came from God's LABOR, not man's labor. God makes the distinction in Deuteronomy 8:18 (NIV) - But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

God gives us the power, or ability, to get or produce wealth. In other words, God gives us the ability to work and earn a living. God gives us the ability to work - to labor. When we work, it is our labor doing the work, not God's labor. He gave us the ability to do the work ourselves.

The tithe never came from this ability that he gave to us. Our God-given abilities cannot produce crops and animals. We might work the soil, plant the seed, etc., but it is the miracles of God that produce the fruit.

Proverbs 3:9 - HONOR the Lord with your wealth AND with the firstfruits of all your produce. Firstfruits of all your produce, not income. Not the first of your wealth.

In Deuteronomy 14:24-25 the tithe was the crops, not the money. You had to take a tenth of the crops and sell it for money, take the money, then use the money to "buy back" the tithe (food).

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees who were the teachers and lawyers. They had income from their profession, but Jesus said nothing about them tithing on their income. Rather, the Scribes and Pharisees were tithing on their garden herbs to keep to the letter of the law - increase of the seed.

[jpg7n16]

The tithe came from God's LABOR, not man's labor. God makes the distinction in Deuteronomy 8:18 (NIV) - But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

To produce wealth? Or produce crops?

God gives us the power, or ability, to get or produce wealth. In other words, God gives us the ability to work and earn a living. God gives us the ability to work - to labor. When we work, it is our labor doing the work, not God's labor. He gave us the ability to do the work ourselves.

So like when a doctor helps a sick person, the doctor's work made them better or God's work did?

saying, “If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer.”
Exodus 15:26

In Deuteronomy 14:24-25 the tithe was the crops, not the money. You had to take a tenth of the crops and sell it for money, take the money, then use the money to "buy back" the tithe (food).

I posted that verse because God gave specific provision of what to do if you were too far from the Holy land, when you were growing your crops.

Even though you claimed tithes only came from crops grown in the Holy Land.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees who were the teachers and lawyers. They had income from their profession, but Jesus said nothing about them tithing on their income. Rather, the Scribes and Pharisees were tithing on their garden herbs to keep to the letter of the law - increase of the seed.

Because like you and I both believe - and the text clearly says, Jesus was more concerned with their lack of mercy, justice, and faithfulness.

Jesus wasn't there to give a financial plan for their lives, but to fix their hearts. He has always been more concerned with people's hearts than their money. But as part of that he mentioned that tithing was good to keep doing.

[maat55]

I was just wondering, if you pay your tithe but have to use credit to pay for your food and utilities, have you really tithed?

Say you loose a good paying job, you go on unemployment or find a lower paying job, if you tithe of that money then use credit to finish paying your needs, did you tithe? Would God want you to do this?

What if you run up credit card debt then file BK, did you honor God? Is God such a demanding creditor that he considers your debt to him so important that you would have to use debt to pay your bills?

I have a suggestion for you strict 10% tithers during hardship. Why not run up a credit card on God while you get on your feet? Just say after everytime you revieve money that I owe you 10%, and when you get on your feet, you can pay him back with no interest, or if you feel that guilty add a little in. That way, you will not dishonor God by not paying someone else what you owe them. If I were God, I would have no problem letting you do this.

[GaryArnold]

I posted that verse because God gave specific provision of what to do if you were too far from the Holy land, when you were growing your crops.

Even though you claimed tithes only came from crops grown in the Holy Land.

It is the scriptures that required the tithe to come from crops and animals raised on the Holy land, not something "I claimed." Furthermore, you don't pay the festival tithe or the three-year tithe. The church patterns its teaching after the Levitical tithe was clearly came from the Holy land. That ONE tithe, Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18, is the ONLY tithe that God claimed was His, and that He said was Holy to the Lord.

And it was that verse that proved the farmers could sell their crops (and animals) for MONEY, but that MONEY, or INCOME was NOT what they tithed on. Is it really that hard to understand, or is it just easy for me to understand because of my accounting background?

Distinguishing between assets and income is really not that hard, but for those who don't already understand the difference, I cover it fully in my book on tithing.

The crops are assets. The SALE or exchange of the crops produce income.

The animals are assets. The SALE or exchange of the animals produce income.

For the last time, the tithe was ALWAYS commanded on ASSETS and NEVER on income.

[jpg7n16]

And it was that verse that proved the farmers could sell their crops (and animals) for MONEY, but that MONEY, or INCOME was NOT what they tithed on. Is it really that hard to understand, or is it just easy for me to understand because of my accounting background?

Conveniently, I have a degree in Finance, I work in Accounting, and I passed the CFP exam.

Your self-righteous putdown isn't helping win me over.

Distinguishing between assets and income is really not that hard, but for those who don't already understand the difference, I cover it fully in my book on tithing.

Congrats.

Let's see... you started with the purchase of seeds (aka capital expenditures) you paid people to work the land (aka labor) you paid to water your land (aka overhead), and when the crops were raised, they produced more value than the expense it took to create them. (aka income)

And thus you were required to give a tenth of the increase. Of what was produced by the land that harvest.

Not a tenth of all your crops held in storage (aka inventory = current asset)

The crops are assets. The SALE or exchange of the crops produce income.

The animals are assets. The SALE or exchange of the animals produce income.

For the last time, the tithe was ALWAYS commanded on ASSETS and NEVER on income.

When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.
Deuteronomy 26:12

Increase. (aka tĕbuw'ah) תְּבוּאָה

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

תְּבוּאָה - produce, product, revenue
a) product, yield, crops (of the earth usually)
b) income, revenue

Yield of the land. Not all crops held on hand. Income - not assets.