Should struggling families tithe?

[SnoopyCool]

Thank you, God has helped me tremendously.

[bjl584]

Well I really do get that. For you Family and self is the highest priority so cut back whenever that's in jeapordy. I get that. I really do.

What I don't get is the mindset that "well I can't give money cause I need every penny for my family, but if you'd like 4-8 hours of time that's okay"; those 4-8 hours are just as needed as the money - and could be used to make even more than a tithe (through overtime), so why is one okay, but not the other? If every dollar is needed, shouldn't every available hour be needed as well? I know some hours are not available, as you need time to sleep and eat and just rest and be with family. But if you have 4-8 hours each week to work for free, and you need money, why not try to work for pay in those hours? Or use them to search for higher paying work that can free up time later?

I don't understand that, but am honestly trying to see where you guys are coming from.

I guess what I do not understand is that you are arguing that it is okay to give up charitable work such as volunteering in order to go find additional work to help add income to the family budget. This volunteering of one's time is being forgoed because the struggling family needs every last dime that they can. Therefore it is OK to not volunteer at this time because they need that time that they would have been working for free so that they can go out and find employment where they will be compensated monetarily. So, if it is acceptable to argue in favor of giving up doing charitable work during tough times, then why is it not also acceptable to give up a monetary tithe during these same tough times? Both are charitable works. One is of effort and time, and the other is of money. Both still charity none the less. You did state that we should give both time and money. But, you are saying that it is OK to give up time and never the monetary tithe. Can you explain? I would conclude that you feel that the monetary tithe is more important than volunteering of one's time or effort. Or that you feel that giving money is more of a sacrifice than giving one's time and effort. I would argue that both are of equal weight and should be treated as such. If it is acceptable to suspend the one during tough times, then it must be acceptable to also suspend the other.

[jpg7n16]

So, if it is acceptable to argue in favor of giving up doing charitable work during tough times, then why is it not also acceptable to give up a monetary tithe during these same tough times? Both are charitable works.

Because I feel that the tithe is not discretionary. It is my belief, based on how I understand Scripture, that I should honor the Lord from my wealth, with all that He gives me - in good times and bad - by means of tithing on all income, whether a little or a lot.

Additional monetary gifts and any gifts of time are purely discretionary.

So if times are tough, I would still honor the Lord with a tithe, but would suspend additional monetary gifts, and the giving of my time - using my own personal discretion.

But, you are saying that it is OK to give up time and never the monetary tithe. Can you explain? I would conclude that you feel that the monetary tithe is more important than volunteering of one's time or effort.

That is essentially how I believe, yes. It is also okay to give up discretionary gifts above the tithe.

I would argue that both are of equal weight and should be treated as such. If it is acceptable to suspend the one during tough times, then it must be acceptable to also suspend the other.

But then is it okay to suspend both? If you choose to give time instead of money, would you be in favor of someone who suspends both?


So as best as I can see it right now, the idea that time can be substituted for monetary tithe stems from the mindset that all tithing of any form is just charitable giving, and thus purely discretionary. So if it's all at your own discretion, then what difference does it make? I can understand that portion of the argument then.


But I still don't get how someone who can't afford to give any money, can be expected to afford to give several hours a week. Or did I misinterpret the suggestion on that side?

"well if you can't give money, what if you gave time instead?" - to me reads, you can't afford to give money, but you can afford to give time. Which doesn't make sense to me.

[bjl584]

Because I feel that the tithe is not discretionary. It is my belief, based on how I understand Scripture, that I should honor the Lord from my wealth, with all that He gives me - in good times and bad - by means of tithing on all income, whether a little or a lot.

Additional monetary gifts and any gifts of time are purely discretionary.

So if times are tough, I would still honor the Lord with a tithe, but would suspend additional monetary gifts, and the giving of my time - using my own personal discretion.


That is essentially how I believe, yes. It is also okay to give up discretionary gifts above the tithe.


But then is it okay to suspend both? If you choose to give time instead of money, would you be in favor of someone who suspends both?


So as best as I can see it right now, the idea that time can be substituted for monetary tithe stems from the mindset that all tithing of any form is just charitable giving, and thus purely discretionary. So if it's all at your own discretion, then what difference does it make? I can understand that portion of the argument then.


But I still don't get how someone who can't afford to give any money, can be expected to afford to give several hours a week. Or did I misinterpret the suggestion on that side?

"well if you can't give money, what if you gave time instead?" - to me reads, you can't afford to give money, but you can afford to give time. Which doesn't make sense to me.

I would argue either one would be sacrifice. Time is money. You could theoretically give time to a charitable organization. Let's say I put in 8 hours at the city mission on a Saturday for free. I could have, as you suggested, go out and find extra work on that Saturday instead of volunteering. So, for the sake of argument, let's say that I could have secured a part time job earning 10 per hour. However, I've chosen to give that up in favor of volumteering. Volunteering has now "cost" me $80. Or, I could have tithed 10% of my $20 an hour full time job, also $80. Six of one, half dozen the other.

Actually, to me anyway, working the city mission for 8 long hours for free is a lot more demanding than simply tithing. To volunteer, I have to get up early, drive to the mission, do some sort of semi-physical work all day without pay such as load or unload trucks, or prepare meals. Quite a long day, and quite tiring. To tithe, all that I really need is my checkbook and a pen.

[GaryArnold]

Actually, to me anyway, working the city mission for 8 long hours for free is a lot more demanding than simply tithing. To volunteer, I have to get up early, drive to the mission, do some sort of semi-physical work all day without pay such as load or unload trucks, or prepare meals. Quite a long day, and quite tiring. To tithe, all that I really need is my checkbook and a pen.

You are quite right.

My experience has been those who really argue hard in favor of mandatory tithing are those who want to believe that they have the other 90% to spend as they wish. Then everything above the tithe becomes discretionary. They can give above it if they wish, but don't feel obligated. In other words, many of these tithers probably could be giving 20% or 30% or more of their income, but now they feel they have done their part by "paying their dues" of the tenth.

God actually looks at what we do with 100% of our income, not 10%. If the tithe is mandatory, then there is no heart involved in paying that tenth. It becomes the same as a tax. It is paid out of habit and obligation. There can't possibly be much joy in paying a bill.

On the other hand, when giving becomes solely discretionary, from the heart, giving is a real joy, and it shows the heart.

Giving your time to a charitable cause is much more valuable than giving money. Those earning a good income merely write out a check and put it in the offering plate. No heart involved. No soul involved. Time is much more precious than money.

Since God defined His tithe to be crops and animals ONLY, if anyone has a right to add income to that definition, then time can also be added. In fact, for those who argue in the Old Testament the economy was made up of mainly farmers, so today we give money instead of the farm products, well that doesn't even make sense. As an accountant, my product was my services. Therefore, it would be more logical to say I should tithed one-tenth of my services to charity. That was my product. Money wasn't my product.

What would God prefer - you give $20 to the church, or give an hour of your time to a handicapped person? I, personally, believe that God would much rather I give my time to help someone else.

It just amazes me how people change God's Word to mean whatever they want it to mean.

[Snodog]

But I still don't get how someone who can't afford to give any money, can be expected to afford to give several hours a week. Or did I misinterpret the suggestion on that side?

Maybe their boss wont give them any more hours. Or maybe they're out of work and simply can't find a job? Jobs aren't exactly easy to find in this envirement. It's not going to take 8 hours/day sending out resumes and going to interviews is it? These people may have some down time and want to get out of the house and feel productive. But any volunteering that is done is at the persons own discretion and not required IMO.

[maat55]

I would like to add to the conversation this: for many people, tithing is a commandment with the promise of help from above. My family has given 10% of our income because we have believed that we would be helped along in those things we needed. And it did help us, I truly believe. So while it might not have made the best sense to many people, there's another dimension to the payment of tithes and offerings that should be recognized here. In my opinion, it is a matter of faith. So my answer to the original question is "yes, struggling families should tithe." And perhaps most especially if those families are struggling financially.

I admire people who purposely dedicate 10% first to tithing, then use 90% for personal use. Where I question their mindset is when they will give the 10%, yet borrow to buy necessities.

In many cases, once people go down the road of living on credit cards, they eventually file Bankruptcy. It would interesting to know if this is condoned by God.

I personally, do not consider the old testiment 10% tithe a requirement under the new covenant. But I fully respect those who do, I would have trouble with worshipping God under the pretense that he comes before my need, yet I should be forgiving to anyone who would owe me money, who cannot meet their own needs.

[Snodog]

...I would have trouble with worshipping God under the pretense that he comes before my need, yet I should be forgiving to anyone who would owe me money, who cannot meet their own needs.

Excellent point, reminds me of the parable of the merciless servant.

Looks like we are in agreement on this subject.

See, I'm a pretty reasonable fellow as long as we aren't talking about politics.

[maat55]

Excellent point, reminds me of the parable of the merciless servant.

Looks like we are in agreement on this subject.

See, I'm a pretty reasonable fellow as long as we aren't talking about politics.

I agree, politics really have nothing to do with common sense.

[disneysteve]

It just amazes me how people change God's Word to mean whatever they want it to mean.

Of course, you are assuming here that anyone truly knows God's word. Or at least you are assuming that the version you adhere to is the "right" version. There are many religions all with their own version of God's word. Heck, even within one religion there are sects with slightly different versions, beliefs and observances. Judaism is a perfect example. Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform all have the same holy book, the Torah, but there are dramatic differences in interpretation and observance.

[disneysteve]

if you have 4-8 hours each week to work for free, and you need money, why not try to work for pay in those hours?

Certainly, that is a reasonable idea. The key would be finding a job to do during those hours which might not be so easy.

I was listening to Dave Ramsey today and he was giving a caller a bit of a hard time. The guy works retail and his schedule varies from week to week, always different days on and different days off. His wife is a nurse and has a similarly rotating schedule. The guy said he couldn't really get a 2nd job because of that. Dave contested that and said to just get a job during the times he wasn't working his primary job. But how realistic a suggestion is that? How many people will hire you with the condition that you have no idea what days or hours you are available to work from week to week? I would think that when most employers are looking to hire someone, it is to fill a particular need in the schedule - days, nights, weekends, whatever. What good is hiring an employee who may or may not be available when you need them?

Now if the guy could do something independently, that would work. I could sell on ebay any time I'm free, 24/7/365. But how many jobs are like that.

So if I was short on money due to limited work, I would certainly volunteer my time to my synagogue more.

[GaryArnold]

1 Corinthians 2:11-15 (NIV)
11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:

Malachi 3:5 (NIV)
5“So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.

Mark 7:13 (NIV)
13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

2 Peter 2:1(NIV)
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (NIV)
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

I believe that Christians should adapt their lives to God's Word, not adjust God's Word to the times. Yet I have received email from many different religious organizations, including a spokesman for the Seventh-day Adventist who say you have to adapt the Bible to the times. That is how the SDA justifies tithing on income.

The definition of tithe = a tenth. Period.
BUT, God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33.

If it doesn't meet God's definition, it isn't His Holy tithe. Period. Change the words if you so desire, but once you change the words, it is no longer the Word of God. Plain and simple. Otherwise, I could go through the Bible and justify just about anything I want by changing words to adapt the Bible to the times. If you can change it for the tithe, then you can change it for marriage, the sabbath, or just about anything else your heart desires.

Not even ONE person on this blog has given scripture to back up tithing in the New Testament, or even tithing on income. It is all "interpretation." Only ONE interpretation is correct. All others must be wrong.

[jpg7n16]

I would argue either one would be sacrifice. Time is money.

I don't deny that at all. I agree completely that either is a sacrifice. I just think that time is discretionary sacrifice.

But if you really feel that time is money: if I cannot afford to give money, I cannot afford to give time. And if I can afford to give time, I can afford to give money.

If someone were to say, "if you're struggling, you shouldn't be giving your money or your time. You should keep all your cash, and use all your available time to either work, or look for better paying work." - That I could understand. While I'd disagree with them on the tithing bit, at least the argument would make sense to me. But to say "you can't afford to give your money, so give your time instead" - I just don't get. (certain exceptions to follow in this post)

Actually, to me anyway, working the city mission for 8 long hours for free is a lot more demanding than simply tithing. To volunteer, I have to get up early, drive to the mission, do some sort of semi-physical work all day without pay such as load or unload trucks, or prepare meals. Quite a long day, and quite tiring. To tithe, all that I really need is my checkbook and a pen.

I completely agree. Giving of your time is very important and necessary for charities to function. But if the time is more valuable than money, how is it able to be given away when money cannot be?

Maybe their boss wont give them any more hours. Or maybe they're out of work and simply can't find a job? Jobs aren't exactly easy to find in this envirement. It's not going to take 8 hours/day sending out resumes and going to interviews is it? These people may have some down time and want to get out of the house and feel productive. But any volunteering that is done is at the persons own discretion and not required IMO.

See that's legit and I can see that happening. And I also agree it's totally at their discretion.

But the jobs are out there. Careerbuilder is full of 1000's of listings. Then there's Monster.com, and even TheLadders. Jobs are out there in this environment. Though all of them aren't ideal - and you're not qualified for all of them, but there are so many that it could make a full time job to look through and apply at them.

For someone who's unemployed, I tend to view that scenario as though they are in full time sales. And that product is me. I've got to sell myself and my labor to companies. So I should be spending the day prospecting, searching for open positions, calling on potential employers, seeking referrals, getting my name/resume out there, scheduling interviews, asking for work.

For someone who's underemployed, I'd almost say they're selling themselves as a part tie 2nd job. When the workday is done, they get to work at their 2nd job of selling themselves to potential employers. And an extra 4-8 hours a week of that type of activity could go a long way.

But yeah if someone's done all they can and have the time available, like I said in a post above -

Having said that, I'd have a very hard time telling someone not to give a little time if they have it available and want to. I mean you can only work so much in one week. Even if you're working 50 hours, there's still a lot of time for other pursuits. (and yeah it'd look good on a resume too)

Certainly, that is a reasonable idea. The key would be finding a job to do during those hours which might not be so easy.

That scenario does seem a bit hard to do. I thought that a few times at some of his 2nd job suggestions, that certain jobs aren't always 8-5, but more well... sporadic.

But the other time could be spent searching for better employment, or doing odd jobs here and there. Yardwork, housing repair, car maintenance, snow shoveling, daycare, babysitting, -the Dave standard special- delivering pizzas, doing a weekend magic show, teaching a night class at a local college, substitute teaching on your off days - or ebay like you mentioned. It doesn't have to be formal employment. Still, the best use may just be in searching for better jobs.

------------------------------
I agree with you guys that if you've got the time available, giving of your time is a big sacrifice, and very valuable - but if you have 5-10+ hours each week 'available', you may be passing over some legitimate opportunities to work or look for work. And it's worth re-evaluating whether you should be volunteering that whole time or cut back.

[maat55]

I would think it would be more convenient for someone who wishes to keep his whole pay to pay his bills, to pay his tithe through service to the church, especially those with rotating hours.

I'm sure you can find a church that you can work within your time frame. Besides, when you work for the lord, the ticker isn't ticking(like not paying taxes while trying to pay your taxes) because you are not getting paid.

[bjl584]

I don't deny that at all. I agree completely that either is a sacrifice. I just think that time is discretionary sacrifice.

But if you really feel that time is money: if I cannot afford to give money, I cannot afford to give time. And if I can afford to give time, I can afford to give money.

If someone were to say, "if you're struggling, you shouldn't be giving your money or your time. You should keep all your cash, and use all your available time to either work, or look for better paying work." - That I could understand. While I'd disagree with them on the tithing bit, at least the argument would make sense to me. But to say "you can't afford to give your money, so give your time instead" - I just don't get. (certain exceptions to follow in this post)


I completely agree. Giving of your time is very important and necessary for charities to function. But if the time is more valuable than money, how is it able to be given away when money cannot be?

See that's legit and I can see that happening. And I also agree it's totally at their discretion.

But the jobs are out there. Careerbuilder is full of 1000's of listings. Then there's Monster.com, and even TheLadders. Jobs are out there in this environment. Though all of them aren't ideal - and you're not qualified for all of them, but there are so many that it could make a full time job to look through and apply at them.

For someone who's unemployed, I tend to view that scenario as though they are in full time sales. And that product is me. I've got to sell myself and my labor to companies. So I should be spending the day prospecting, searching for open positions, calling on potential employers, seeking referrals, getting my name/resume out there, scheduling interviews, asking for work.

For someone who's underemployed, I'd almost say they're selling themselves as a part tie 2nd job. When the workday is done, they get to work at their 2nd job of selling themselves to potential employers. And an extra 4-8 hours a week of that type of activity could go a long way.

But yeah if someone's done all they can and have the time available, like I said in a post above -





That scenario does seem a bit hard to do. I thought that a few times at some of his 2nd job suggestions, that certain jobs aren't always 8-5, but more well... sporadic.

But the other time could be spent searching for better employment, or doing odd jobs here and there. Yardwork, housing repair, car maintenance, snow shoveling, daycare, babysitting, -the Dave standard special- delivering pizzas, doing a weekend magic show, teaching a night class at a local college, substitute teaching on your off days - or ebay like you mentioned. It doesn't have to be formal employment. Still, the best use may just be in searching for better jobs.

------------------------------
I agree with you guys that if you've got the time available, giving of your time is a big sacrifice, and very valuable - but if you have 5-10+ hours each week 'available', you may be passing over some legitimate opportunities to work or look for work. And it's worth re-evaluating whether you should be volunteering that whole time or cut back.

To answer your question from a few posts back, yes, I do believe that a struggling family should cut out both time (volunteering) AND a tithe (money) during hardship. They need every last dollar, AND every last second of time to put themselves in a better situation.

My argument was more in line with what others have been posting. If one feels complelled to give back even when they are struggling, then giving time seems more realistic to me. As it was already said, people that work sporadic hours and schedules will have trouble finding extra work due to scheduling conflicts, but that person will always have time to volunteer. I'm just not sure how discretionary that time is. It depends how motivated and creative someone is. If someone is a real go getter, then they may be able to think outside the box enough to fill their free time with income generating activities. (That sacrificing of one's time would not be discretionary.) However, if someone isn't that creative, then their "sacrifice" of free time may not be such a sacrifice at all, since that person may have not been doing anything else with their free time anyway. (A complete discretionary use of one's time in that case.)

I do feel that some people write a check to their local church each week without even thinking about it. There is no sacrifice or hardship laid upon them for it. They've been doing it for years and are financially "used" to it. However, take that same person and make them work at a soup kitchen for a weekend and sweat a little and go home exhausted, I think that they would have more a sense of accomplishment that they actually helped people and gave back to their community. Someone like that would benefit personally much more than simply mindlessly cutting a check each week. I know that is not descriptive of everyone that gives, and many that give do so wholeheartedly and with a sense of humility.