Coffee Badging: The New Pushback to Returning to the Office

[bjl584]

Coffee badging: The new workplace trend worrying corporates (yourstory.com)

[disneysteve]

Employers need to get with the times. Employees have had a real taste of an alternative to the standard 9-5 on-site employment and they've seen how much better both their work performance and personal lives are as a result. They don't want to ever go back to the old way. Employers need to accept that and adapt accordingly if they want to keep attracting top talent.

[riverwed070707]

It feels really nice to be in a position to say there is no amount of money that could get me to return to an office. I'd quit on the spot if my work mandated any office time... granted I also took my job as a remote job and the office is an hour away - something I never would have taken if I had thought there was a possibility of required office time.

In hindsight, I don't even know how we'd be managing our day-to-day schedule if I still had an office job. DD is in high school now and taking the bus to and from school is no longer an option so I need to be available to drop her off at 8:30 and pick her up at 3:30. We live 10 minutes from school. Having to trek to any office - even if it were closer than my current one - would drastically cut into the time I could actually be spending working.

Thankfully this isn't a concern for me as I work for a tech company who's CEO is also remote and who's leadership is very supportive of a "work where you work best" model.

[ua_guy]

Same. Not going to return unless I absolutely have to, and right now, I don't have to. I'll simply find an employer who will allow me to work remotely and there are plenty. It ultimately saves them money and gives them access to a wider talent pool.

My husband and I have several friends at Amazon and other employers who have mandated return-to-office. We know a few coffee-badgers (who are still very productive when at home). It's mutiny there, people hate it. Offices are NOT healthy places, generally. The insistence on return to in-person is driven by highly extrovert, insecure leadership types in every case I've seen. They lack the ability to manage remote teams and exposes their status as a not-so-great leader if they can't look over the shoulder of their employees or demand them to meet with them in their office at moment's notice because they need help to understand something. I'm not talking about line-level, hourly employees. These are seasoned professional and leaders who are highly skilled and have long tenure in their careers.

Now, not every job can or should be done remotely. I'm well aware of that. But for those jobs where it can (and probably should) be done remotely, give employees the freedom to do that. This is the modern way.

[Fishindude77]

Remote work might work for some positions and businesses but certainly not the best plan for all.
A lot of people need the structured discipline of a daily work routine, office hours, start time, quitting time, etc. to be productive. Leave them to their own devices and own schedule and they won't get much done.
It takes a pretty solid, disciplined individual to be a truly productive remote employee.

Speaking for myself, I preferred to do my work at the office and liked the work life / home life separation. Last thing I wanted to do was bring work home.
Home was for fun and family.

[disneysteve]

Remote work might work for some positions and businesses but certainly not the best plan for all.

Absolutely. It's not right for every job or every person, but it works fabulously for many, many people given the opportunity. They are far more productive and have much higher job satisfaction working remotely. I know many people who after working from home during the pandemic never want to go back to an office, but I also know some people who couldn't wait to get back. The point is that employers need to be open to both options rather than having a blanket mandate that everybody has to be on site all the time. With so many jobs being computer-based today, that's really a very outdated way of thinking about work.

[ua_guy]

It's not for me to decide if someone "needs" a structured work day with rigid start and end times. Non-performers make themselves known in the office just as they do at home. They don't perform. It doesn't make sense to require those things for the few employees who need extra care and feeding in order to get their work done. The rest of the employees manage their time effectively and don't need to waste time driving to an office to produce results, just to be there.

I don't think "taking work home" is so much a physical thing as it is a mental state. It's the stress and thinking about tomorrow's problems, not bringing a bridge home to work on it after hours, although, maybe it is for some people. Most professional "office" employees have laptops, and email/Teams on mobile devices anyway, so it's not like they were physically leaving their "work" in the office before all this happened. It's followed them home for a long time, and the work/life line has long been blurred. But that's the point, grind culture, to guilt people into working extra productive hours they aren't necessarily compensated for.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

It's not for me to decide if someone "needs" a structured work day with rigid start and end times. Non-performers make themselves known in the office just as they do at home. They don't perform. It doesn't make sense to require those things for the few employees who need extra care and feeding in order to get their work done. The rest of the employees manage their time effectively and don't need to waste time driving to an office to produce results, just to be there.

I don't think "taking work home" is so much a physical thing as it is a mental state. It's the stress and thinking about tomorrow's problems, not bringing a bridge home to work on it after hours, although, maybe it is for some people. Most professional "office" employees have laptops, and email/Teams on mobile devices anyway, so it's not like they were physically leaving their "work" in the office before all this happened. It's followed them home for a long time, and the work/life line has long been blurred. But that's the point, grind culture, to guilt people into working extra productive hours they aren't necessarily compensated for.

Maybe but I chatted with a professor friend. He said that he likes the hybrid model even for himself but he doesn't understand why students/post-doc wouldn't come in. They learn from their peers, they learn from their mentors. Ideas are generated from sitting and doing roundtable articles. I used to do weekly article club (mandatory in grad school). Department wide and we had to sit and discuss someone presenting an article. Then we'd tear it apart, talk about ideas. Then there are weekly lab meetings and yes it's way more productive in person than over a zoom. The tenor/feeling of the critisizm is different in person.

Definitely there are jobs that can be done remotely (hello call centers and customer support), but at the same time if it's fully remote maybe it'll be off shored to a cheaper labor market.

In person you can schedule meeting and accomplish a lot. Remote? You schedule meetings to schedule meetings. There is a lot of built in inefficiency when you are a smaller company. That naturally happens with sizing. DH's company is fully in person and no remote work. The success is from being in person. Not supervising but the efficiency of pulling people into meeting. The quick whose working on X, Y, Z with 8 guys working in an office. How long would it have taken remote? They all could have worked remotely in a tech company. But would it have been as successful? I"m not sure.

Just like learning in grad school. There is something to be said about hands on learning. Beside the point, there are many jobs that you have to be in person. You can't run tests from home. You can't spin blood, run a gel, or any sort of medical research from home. Want to have nurses or dr see you through a screen? Want them to say "hey let's allow the lab people try to build labs in every home. Or work hybrid. What does a lab person need to be hybrid for? Get your behind to work and run those labs." Grant writing, paper writing, grading papers sure.

But in many fields even "white" or "blue" collar there are hands on jobs. Maybe one head contractor to bid home repairs, but it'd be interesting to see the plumber telling you over zoom how to fix the leak. Or maybe the painter telling you how to tape. Or roofer. Or maybe the dentist can observe your teeth through the screen. Or how a restaurant can allow everyone to cook from home, then deliver the food directly.

There's a lot of push back on return to office. But how many jobs could never be at home? How many people don't even have that option? JPM everyone was mad at Jamie Dimon for saying get back. But what they didn't say (which I have a couple of friends at JPM) saying that some of it is regulations. They need to be in office for security purposes. But people don't want to do follow the rules and be in office. Guess we're okay with lax security on our financial stuff.

[ua_guy]

You're right...some jobs can't or shouldn't be done remotely. I wouldn't hire a remote plumber if I had a pipe burst, for example.

Reading the tone of what you wrote, though, is something I hear often. The assumption is that people can't be productive or build professional relationships remotely. Or that because a piece of a job needs to be done in person, that other work shouldn't also be done remotely, or that it isn't fair to let other staff work remotely. There's so much fear and anxiety of missing out, or not having control, and believing that everyone works and engages in the same way (only in person).

Again, I've never worked in an office that I've considered a healthy place. They're designed around fear, and collaboration that doesn't need to happen. Zero privacy. Remote work requires trust, strong leadership, and engaged workers. You can have that in an office too, but it's not the setting that makes the difference. It's the people.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Actually the professor I know is all for hybrid work but he can definitely tell that it's better in person. But he's shocked anyone wanting or needing mentoring will choose to stay at home and ignore him being there when he says he is to pick us brain. To spitball ideas that come more naturally than on line. You don't sit in a zoom and shoot the breeze or show results for 10 minute "hey got a second".

And on the same token I have a cousin her husband even said he doesn't work a 30 hour week let alone 40 hour week but that's why he's been at his job 10+ years and has no desire to find another. It's fantastic. He travels at least 8-10 weeks a year vacation because he's remote and "works" whole traveling. Couple of ours of work and meetings and he's good to go. Trade off? No promotion, no real salary increases but he's happy so I think it's a win win. But he himself would say remote workers work less. He says it all the time. His company is fully remote and most of the time all of them knowingly choose to stay. Those who want more leave.

I know too managers on tech which has a lot of teams spread out and remote teams who evens at they can tell the difference. They are more likely to fire a remote person because they feel like they have a connection with the person they seen in person. Maybe not full time but you've socialized outside the job. Been invited to dinner or drinks or something. And that's human nature. To connect and feel guilt over person a you see in office so you'd rather cut person b remote worker because you don't chit chat once a week about kid daycare or something.

It all is connected. I don't think you need to be in person for a call center when I need help booking a trip. But maybe I want you in person if you are handling something secure or private.

I'm thinking hybrid is here to stay but I'm not sure if companies will move to completely remote.

[riverwed070707]

Maybe but I chatted with a professor friend. He said that he likes the hybrid model even for himself but he doesn't understand why students/post-doc wouldn't come in. They learn from their peers, they learn from their mentors. Ideas are generated from sitting and doing roundtable articles. I used to do weekly article club (mandatory in grad school). Department wide and we had to sit and discuss someone presenting an article. Then we'd tear it apart, talk about ideas. Then there are weekly lab meetings and yes it's way more productive in person than over a zoom. The tenor/feeling of the critisizm is different in person.

Definitely there are jobs that can be done remotely (hello call centers and customer support), but at the same time if it's fully remote maybe it'll be off shored to a cheaper labor market.

In person you can schedule meeting and accomplish a lot. Remote? You schedule meetings to schedule meetings. There is a lot of built in inefficiency when you are a smaller company. That naturally happens with sizing. DH's company is fully in person and no remote work. The success is from being in person. Not supervising but the efficiency of pulling people into meeting. The quick whose working on X, Y, Z with 8 guys working in an office. How long would it have taken remote? They all could have worked remotely in a tech company. But would it have been as successful? I"m not sure.

Just like learning in grad school. There is something to be said about hands on learning. Beside the point, there are many jobs that you have to be in person. You can't run tests from home. You can't spin blood, run a gel, or any sort of medical research from home. Want to have nurses or dr see you through a screen? Want them to say "hey let's allow the lab people try to build labs in every home. Or work hybrid. What does a lab person need to be hybrid for? Get your behind to work and run those labs." Grant writing, paper writing, grading papers sure.

But in many fields even "white" or "blue" collar there are hands on jobs. Maybe one head contractor to bid home repairs, but it'd be interesting to see the plumber telling you over zoom how to fix the leak. Or maybe the painter telling you how to tape. Or roofer. Or maybe the dentist can observe your teeth through the screen. Or how a restaurant can allow everyone to cook from home, then deliver the food directly.

There's a lot of push back on return to office. But how many jobs could never be at home? How many people don't even have that option? JPM everyone was mad at Jamie Dimon for saying get back. But what they didn't say (which I have a couple of friends at JPM) saying that some of it is regulations. They need to be in office for security purposes. But people don't want to do follow the rules and be in office. Guess we're okay with lax security on our financial stuff.

There are scenarios where success will vary - everyone is in agreement not every job can be remote but nothing you've said here is true about my job or my company. Are there advantages to college students being in person? Absolutely! Will they not be capable of critical thinking or have any social skills if professors implement well structured, interactive online courses? Nope. Imagine the dent we could make in college affordability if students could take courses around their work schedules and live in affordable housing anywhere in the country while getting a quality education with minimal overhead to the university. That doesn't line pocketbooks though, it just benefits society as a whole so it wouldn't take off.

I would argue my experience with meetings is 100% the opposite. I used to spend SO MANY HOURS sitting in reoccurring meetings in the office. Virtually, we ALWAYS have an agenda and if there is nothing on it, the meeting is cancelled to give people work time back. Meetings are so much more productive and no more time spent just talking about what everyone else is working on. There are plenty of tools for impromptu chats these days as well and they happen all the time. And ya, you have to be intentional about socializing and making connections with coworkers, but that doesn't mean its impossible and we're all just sitting in little technology bubbles all day. I've been with my company 2 years fully remote and I would conservatively take a guess that I've met or interacted with 50% of our 2,500 person company across the globe. Its not hard, it just takes willingness to adapt and changing the way we think about what it means to have a watercooler conversation.

As to the "some people need structured discipline" comment from Fishindude, that sounds like control issues and/or hiring the wrong people. I've never been a fan of treating adults like children in any circumstance - just like high schoolers shouldn't have to ask to use the bathroom. The days of punching a time clock from 9-5 are over for anyone who is able to do their work electronically.

[Fishindude77]

Big differences of opinion here. Seems like those that have gotten on the remote work program will fight tooth and nail to protect and keep it.
Distance from the office and your existing office environment will obviously weigh heavy on your opinion as well.

It really depends on what type of work you are doing.

I'm rather strongly opinionated that all of todays email, text and various forms of digital communication are making the social interaction skills of many individuals (not all) quite poor.
In many types of business there is just no substitute for handshakes, voice conversations, personal greetings and face to face communication.

There is no "one size fits all" answer. Do what works best for you and your business.

[ua_guy]

Sounds like there are more of us here who work remotely and aren't "call center" employees. My husband has been in executive leadership for the last 10 years and manages remote teams and his colleagues are remote. They do some amazing things. Given their ranking by revenue, profitability, and size, I think they're effective in how they manage their teams and remote work.

What I do is small beans comparatively, but again, I've been working remotely hybrid or full since 2007. Our "industry" has really embraced it and we are more productive and skilled than ever. The people who can't do it get weeded out and find a spot back working in an office, which is fine. Those are the people who need rigidity, someone to tell them when work starts and when work is over, and to focus and pay attention.

The new company I work for allows for 45 days of remote work outside our home state, since they are not set up to do business in every state. When I mentioned to my new boss we typically "winter" in California for a month, she said not a problem, the company officially blesses those kinds of things.

For many it really is a whole new way of living and working. I think it's better this way, for what we do. I have good relationships with my colleagues, we don't need to spend 8-12 hours of our day together to be productive.

[disneysteve]

Big differences of opinion here. Seems like those that have gotten on the remote work program will fight tooth and nail to protect and keep it.
Distance from the office and your existing office environment will obviously weigh heavy on your opinion as well.

It really depends on what type of work you are doing.

It totally depends on the work. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

The only point I, and I think others here, am making is that employers need to be open to the possibility that there are absolutely jobs that can be done well remotely. In many cases, they can be done even better and more efficiently remotely. A cubicle farm isn't a great work environment for many people.

My full job can't be done remotely, but when the pandemic began, we did start offering telehealth services and gradually expanded them. Now, several providers who used to work in-clinic like I do have switched to working fully remotely doing telehealth instead of in-person visits. That doesn't replace the clinics but it created a whole new service line and allows a bunch of us to work remotely either some of the time or all of time. The providers doing it love it and patients love the availability to consult with a medical provider for minor issues without leaving home.

[ua_guy]

Two idiotic examples of "return to office":

One is a friend of ours, a seasoned leader at Company "A". She used to work at the headquarters near Seattle but was given the OK to work remotely several years ago. With the blessing of leadership, her and her husband moved back to Texas to care for family. That was two years ago, and suddenly she was recalled. The team she manages works remotely in various states. Not a single employee of hers works out of the office location in Texas where she's been recalled. None of her peers work there. So, she has to drive an hour to this office, manage her team who doesn't even work there, and reports to her boss, who works in Seattle. It's the stupidest thing, ever, and her badge swipes at that office location are reported-on. Needless to say, she's looking for a new job.

Other buddy of ours works for an IT vendor that supports school districts. They've been "hybrid" forever, but they are all local employees. During Covid, his team went completely remote. Now they're being recalled to 100% in-office, completely the opposite of what's been working well for a few years, and completely removing the hybrid privilege they had before. The company has been doing well, the employees have been very productive, but some hard-on at the top is on a return-to-office rampage. My buddy says several good people have already left, and what was once a great place to work now totally sucks and he's looking to leave too.