Random Thoughts

[disneysteve]

I read an interesting article stating that the middle class is an anomaly that was largely created by the economic boom that occurred after WWII.
It further went on to say that wealth will naturally concentrate under Capitalism, therefore, there are winners and losers. No one "should" be left in the middle.
If i find the article I'll post the link.

I guess the question then is what does a "loser" look like in that scenario. Is it someone living in a refrigerator box under a highway overpass or is it someone working a full time job with a spouse doing the same who can manage to afford a modest house in a decent neighborhood, perhaps in a multi-generational setting for cost-sharing?

I disagree with the "winners and losers" concept. Certainly there will folks who have more and folks who have less, but we as a society certainly have the means for everyone to have enough. Nobody should be out on the street or starving even if (especially if) they suffer from mental illness or substance use disorders.

[bjl584]

I guess the question then is what does a "loser" look like in that scenario. Is it someone living in a refrigerator box under a highway overpass or is it someone working a full time job with a spouse doing the same who can manage to afford a modest house in a decent neighborhood, perhaps in a multi-generational setting for cost-sharing?

I disagree with the "winners and losers" concept. Certainly there will folks who have more and folks who have less, but we as a society certainly have the means for everyone to have enough. Nobody should be out on the street or starving even if (especially if) they suffer from mental illness or substance use disorders.

The article was assuming a state of pure Capitalism without any government intervention, programs, or interference.

[disneysteve]

The article was assuming a state of pure Capitalism without any government intervention, programs, or interference.

Sure, if you remove all Government from the picture. That means no more Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, Social Security, agricultural subsidies, Federal student loans, oil company subsidies, tax breaks for renewable energy, public utilities, bridges, roads, sewer systems, police and fire departments, public transportation, public schools, and all of the other "socialist" programs and services that exist in our capitalist society. Take away all of that and have a pure free market society and see what happens.

[ua_guy]

If we are truly nearing "end stage" capitalism, then what?

[bjl584]

If we are truly nearing "end stage" capitalism, then what?

The Walking Dead???? LOL

[Fishindude77]

The whole "middle class" thing get used a lot but it really doesn't stand for much.
I'm guessing if you interviewed most people you know, just about all of them would consider themselves "middle class". For some reason it's the socially acceptable class to be in, yet incomes vary wildly within this group.

The trick is learning to live on what you have. I'm in a rather low cost of living area and know people that are happy and content getting by on maybe $40k annually while others in the same area are going broke on $200k incomes.

[myrdale]

Sure, if you remove all Government from the picture. That means no more Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, Social Security, agricultural subsidies, Federal student loans, oil company subsidies, tax breaks for renewable energy, public utilities, bridges, roads, sewer systems, police and fire departments, public transportation, public schools, and all of the other "socialist" programs and services that exist in our capitalist society. Take away all of that and have a pure free market society and see what happens.

Medicare - Allow people to manage their own health care savings.
Medicaid - Eliminate it.
Tricare - I don't know what this is.
Social Security - Allow people to manage their own retirement.
Agricultural Subsidies - Eliminate them.
Federal Student Loans - Eliminate them.
Oil Company Subsidies - Eliminate them.
Tax Breaks for Renewable Energy - Eliminate them and jail the politicians who past them.
Public Utilities - Privatize them.
Bridges, Roads - This is the job of federal and local governments.
Sewers - Local governments.
Police and Fire Departments - Local & State Sales Tax
Public Transport - Privatize it.
Public Schools - Privatize it.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

A lot of people think they pay a lot but they don't in taxes. A lot of people are surprised to realize they don't pay as much as they think in federal taxes. But it's medicare and ss that eat up 8% of a paycheck. So you owe 24% but then another 8%. You owe 32% and another 8%.

And SS is about to not take in enough. lift the cap on SS earning and wham it'll be fixed by a lot.

[kork13]

A lot of people think they pay a lot but they don't in taxes. A lot of people are surprised to realize they don't pay as much as they think in federal taxes. But it's medicare and ss that eat up 8% of a paycheck. So you owe 24% but then another 8%. You owe 32% and another 8%.

And SS is about to not take in enough. lift the cap on SS earning and wham it'll be fixed by a lot.

There's alot of ways that SS could be made far more healthy. Sadly, ignorance, fear mongering, and partisanship have made most of those ideas a third rail.

[disneysteve]

The whole "middle class" thing get used a lot but it really doesn't stand for much.
I'm guessing if you interviewed most people you know, just about all of them would consider themselves "middle class". For some reason it's the socially acceptable class to be in, yet incomes vary wildly within this group.

The trick is learning to live on what you have. I'm in a rather low cost of living area and know people that are happy and content getting by on maybe $40k annually while others in the same area are going broke on $200k incomes.

The whole concept of defining class by income has never made sense anyway. Where do you live? What's the cost of living there? How many kids do you have? How old are you?

Making 200K in New York City is entirely different than making 200K in Dover, Delaware. Making 150K when you're 30 and single is much different than making 150K when you're 48 and married with 3 kids. How far that money is going to go will vary widely depending on a bunch of other factors.

[ua_guy]

Social security was meant to be a safety net, but now it's a primary means of retirement income for a lot of folks. This speaks to the growing divide between winners and losers in capitalism. Wages haven't kept up, and retirement programs through employers are largely self-funded these days. Another data point which suggests people are working more, for less.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

This next generation of retirees generation X are the first generation where the majority don't have a pension. It'll be interesting to see what happens when people really depend on SS as the majority of their retirement. Boomers had pensions from unions, private companies, etc. But now union pensions and private companies don't have it. And now federal, state jobs are also cutting benefits and pensions.

[bjl584]

This next generation of retirees generation X are the first generation where the majority don't have a pension. It'll be interesting to see what happens when people really depend on SS as the majority of their retirement. Boomers had pensions from unions, private companies, etc. But now union pensions and private companies don't have it. And now federal, state jobs are also cutting benefits and pensions.

My dad has a pension, but he also never had the option of a 401K.
I'd have to think that for the average person (someone not on this board) that a pension would have served them much better in retirement.
A 401K can be withdrawn, not participated in, and invested in incorrectly.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the majority of retirees had their own investments to tend to over the course of their careers.

[disneysteve]

My dad has a pension, but he also never had the option of a 401K.
I'd have to think that for the average person (someone not on this board) that a pension would have served them much better in retirement.
A 401K can be withdrawn, not participated in, and invested in incorrectly.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the majority of retirees had their own investments to tend to over the course of their careers.

The death of pensions is a huge problem. Pensions were easy. Everything was done for you and you just started getting monthly checks when you retired. Nothing to think about or do beyond that. 401k and IRA plans are great but require far more knowledge and hands on involvement to get it right. Even as someone who considers myself to be pretty well versed on investing, I find the whole process of deciding when and how much to draw from each account to be quite overwhelming. Is it better to tap my 401k first or my Roth or maybe my traditional IRA or maybe the inherited traditional IRA. How do I know how much I can afford to take from each to make sure I don't run out of money when I'm 80? And that's on top of having to decide along the way how much to contribute and how to invest it. It's quite a lot of responsibility for most everyone, even those who are pretty good with financial stuff.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Pensions work mostly not just because of auto saving but auto investing. If 401ks not only auto enrolled people but also invested into target retirement funds people would likely be doing similiarly well to having a pension. But for the majority of people they are not able to save the amount neeeded for a pension to work. 15%? Most people don/t do that. And then investing it properly without moving outwhen the market drops is another issue that people face.