Has the forum helped

[disneysteve]

Well, I'll disagree with you. if you have "smart meters" / water efficient shower heads & toilets, solar for energy etc, utilities don't make a HUGE difference at all. Heat and air conditioning are centralized, so it would be the same whether 3 people or 5 people or 10 people are living in the house. Also, we're talking about adult children not moving out on their 18th birthday but having them continue living with you. So it's not like your utility bills suddenly start to shoot up.

It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. You asked a question and I answered it. It isn't a matter of opinion. Our bills were lower with 2 in the house than with 3 for the reasons I mentioned and more.

You're right about it not changing if the kid already lives there and just keeps living there. In that case, you just don't get the drop that would come if the kid moved out.

[GoodLiving]

I read a book by Chris Balish years ago about how you can live well without a car, and how cars are just a drain of money because they are "instant modes of transportation at a convenience", so I have been encouraging my kid to use an electric scooter at this time. If / when she needs something which can go longer distances, and if her destination can be reached via inner city roads (not the highway), then I would tell her to buy a motor scooter or a moped. IF she still needs a car because the place of work or college is not accessible without going on the highway, THEN I would front the money for a solid, safer newer car, but in ALL cases, gas and insurance will be her responsibility. Why? Because if she's old enough to need a car / motor scooter / moped, then she's old enough to pay for the associated gas & insurance expenses herself. The only reason I will pay for a new car is when she needs to use the highways and for her safety as newer cars are safer (in my opinion) than older ones. IF she is careless with it or gets into an at-fault wreck, then a replacement mode of transportation would be HER responsibility to figure out.

For anyone curious, here's a link to a NPR story about the book that Scallywag is referring to... https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=5649826

[Scallywag]

For anyone curious, here's a link to a NPR story about the book that Scallywag is referring to... https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=5649826

Thank you!

The book is "dated" as it was published 15 years ago, but many of it's tips / tricks on how to live a good life without a car are still valid.

As a result of this book, we seriously contemplated getting rid of our car. Unfortunately, after trying public transportation with our son, we realized we will always need one car as he cannot be transported safely on a bus or train or in the back of any kind of 2-wheeler, and he has anxiety associated with getting into cabs or even the school van or any unfamiliar vehicle. But if he had been typical, we would have gone car-free because we do not need one. The time we spent without a car (we did a trial by taking and parking our vehicle at one of our siblings' home in another county for a whole month), it did seem "strange" to not have "instant transportation" but by the end of the month, we were getting used to it just fine, except for our son's challenges riding public transport and risks associated with him riding pillion on a two-wheeler of any kind.

Feels hypocritical for me to say this as a $TSLA investor, but cars aien't all that either (although H really really really wants a Tesla sometime in our future).

We'll see.

Also, here's Chris' keynote speech on how he "manages" without an automobile:

https://vimeo.com/102819691

[LivingAlmostLarge]

It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. You asked a question and I answered it. It isn't a matter of opinion. Our bills were lower with 2 in the house than with 3 for the reasons I mentioned and more.

You're right about it not changing if the kid already lives there and just keeps living there. In that case, you just don't get the drop that would come if the kid moved out.

Scallywag I'm not disagreeing about supporting a contributing adult. I always thought if our kids wanted to live with us a year or two to save a down payment I would be totally fine with it! Wish we had that opportunity. But if you read early retirement they talk about the cost of "supporting" your adult children. You can't deny the cost, and it's not wrong to do so or expect to pay. But you can't pretend that there are definite costs.

Downsizing. A couple can easily buy or rent a 1 bd condo if they were hoping to retire from their say 3 bd home. That extra cash often times is preached as going to the stash and generating income. Also maintenance, utilities, insurance on a 500 sq ft condo is a lot cheaper than a 1200 sq ft home anyway you cut it. And that's what the early retirement crowd is preaching. That if you don't "support" your adult children (again I say this is a what you value opinion) is a way to get to early retirement faster.

Um Mr Money Mustache has even said he doesn't expect to pay anything for his son's college or support. He argues it might not even be worth it. I agree it depends. But I think a lot of people on ER often don't have kids or expect to not give any support to their children which makes achieving FIRE a much different proposition than having children and perhaps being of the opinion that you will help them.

[Scallywag]

Scallywag I'm not disagreeing about supporting a contributing adult. I always thought if our kids wanted to live with us a year or two to save a down payment I would be totally fine with it! Wish we had that opportunity. But if you read early retirement they talk about the cost of "supporting" your adult children. You can't deny the cost, and it's not wrong to do so or expect to pay. But you can't pretend that there are definite costs.

Downsizing. A couple can easily buy or rent a 1 bd condo if they were hoping to retire from their say 3 bd home. That extra cash often times is preached as going to the stash and generating income. Also maintenance, utilities, insurance on a 500 sq ft condo is a lot cheaper than a 1200 sq ft home anyway you cut it. And that's what the early retirement crowd is preaching. That if you don't "support" your adult children (again I say this is a what you value opinion) is a way to get to early retirement faster.

Um Mr Money Mustache has even said he doesn't expect to pay anything for his son's college or support. He argues it might not even be worth it. I agree it depends. But I think a lot of people on ER often don't have kids or expect to not give any support to their children which makes achieving FIRE a much different proposition than having children and perhaps being of the opinion that you will help them.

Ummm, well, there IS a cost to supporting your adult kids. There is a cost to have kids. Heck, there is even a cost to living! So, what? You do you.

Methinks you retire when you want to retire, if you can crunch the numbers and make it work. I really don't care if Mr. MM supports his kid or if Mr. ER is kicking his kid out at age 18 etc. And again, it's a LIE that supporting contributing adults is a huge cost - it absolutely is not, unless said "adults" are doing nothing but playing video games in your basement all day long.

[srblanco7]

Um Mr Money Mustache has even said he doesn't expect to pay anything for his son's college or support. He argues it might not even be worth it. I agree it depends. But I think a lot of people on ER often don't have kids or expect to not give any support to their children which makes achieving FIRE a much different proposition than having children and perhaps being of the opinion that you will help them.

Responding to the question that started this thread - I joined this forum in February 2008 which was in the midst of the stock market decline. I'm not prone to panic moves or attempts at market timing, nevertheless, having a solid community to reinforce a long-term perspective is always helpful. Over the years, I've learned and been introduced to new concepts via the forums on this board and it's one of the very few places that it seems fair to share our wins and our plans for FIRE.

As it relates to the recent direction of this thread, I do not think I'd consider myself FI or consider ER if I was not prepared to address my childrens' college costs. That's a parenting "obligation" for me - a step toward launching them as successful adults.

[Scallywag]

As it relates to the recent direction of this thread, I do not think I'd consider myself FI or consider ER if I was not prepared to address my childrens' college costs. That's a parenting "obligation" for me - a step toward launching them as successful adults.

This. This was what I wanted to say but didn't - I don't consider it FI if there are parenting obligation I have to shirk to achieve that "status".

[srblanco7]

This. This was what I wanted to say but didn't - I don't consider it FI if there are parenting obligation I have to shirk to achieve that "status".

Understood and I feel the same way. That being said, it's something not all parents, whether based on means or choice accept as an obligation. By way of example, my son's girlfriend (who's very smart, likely top three in a grad class of 600+) has shared with us that her parents will not be contributing to her college costs. It's on her to earn/finance her college degree. Am assuming she'll likely receive scholarships given her academic record (and perhaps financial aid - don't know their financial situation), but certainly not an easy task for a high school student to figure out how to pay for/finance college.

[GoodLiving]

certainly not an easy task for a high school student to figure out how to pay for/finance college.

Especially if that high school student isn't taught how to navigate higher ed. I was a stubborn independent youth and I don't know how I figured it out. Additionally, I know that I did not leverage my undergrad (or my first masters) as much as I could. Of course, my now adult child would have never listened to me in their youth either.

[disneysteve]

my son's girlfriend (who's very smart, likely top three in a grad class of 600+) has shared with us that her parents will not be contributing to her college costs. It's on her to earn/finance her college degree.

This becomes a serious problem because unless the student has been declared legally emancipated, the school still bases aid on the parents' financials even if they refuse to contribute a penny toward the education costs. Then the kid is really screwed. Can't afford things on their own and can't qualify for aid because their parents have plenty of money but won't spend it to educate their child.

[Scallywag]

This becomes a serious problem because unless the student has been declared legally emancipated, the school still bases aid on the parents' financials even if they refuse to contribute a penny toward the education costs. Then the kid is really screwed. Can't afford things on their own and can't qualify for aid because their parents have plenty of money but won't spend it to educate their child.

Then its time to "reform" the schools' thinking that just because parents exist doesn't mean that they have the desire to help the kids through college.

The second thing is to understand why some parents are reluctant to pay for a college degree. Are they financially insecure for ANY reason? Are they not in agreement with the kid's choice of college or major? Is the parent remarried and the refusal coming from the step-parent (unfortunately the case many times)? Are there many kids and they simply cannot afford to put ALL of them through college and so are trying to be "fair" by putting NONE of them through college?

Also, it IS possible to go through college debt-free, if you are meritorious enough or if you work hard, get a part-time job, go to community college to get GE requirements out of the way for free / for cheap, and then apply for as many scholarships as is possible to minimize the money you need to pay out of pocket for college. One kid spent the ENTIRE summer before senior year in high school applying to every scholarship he heard of / came across (Google is your best friend), including ones he didn't technically qualify for (for example, Peruvian Catholic scholarship although he was neither Peruvian nor Catholic). He managed to actually get $50K in scholarships, with the rest being paid for by part-time work, some community college, etc. It's really not rocket science.

All this uncommon sense and practical planning tips also have been outlined in the book "Debt Free Degree" by Anthony O'Neal. It's worth a read, even if parents and kid both just assume that the parents are going to pay your way through 4 years of University.

A tip I don't think is covered in the book: IF your marriage unfortunately fails and you really want to send your kids to college but feel you may never be able to afford it on your own, then please, for the love of God and for your children's sakes, get college negotiated and included in the divorce settlement. Your kids will thank you later. YOU will thank your divorcing self later, too.

[riverwed070707]

Well, I'll disagree with you. if you have "smart meters" / water efficient shower heads & toilets, solar for energy etc, utilities don't make a HUGE difference at all. Heat and air conditioning are centralized, so it would be the same whether 3 people or 5 people or 10 people are living in the house. Also, we're talking about adult children not moving out on their 18th birthday but having them continue living with you. So it's not like your utility bills suddenly start to shoot up. Also, they're contributing towards costs in an equitable manner, so your net expenses should go down, not up.

We each take a shower a day (2 showers each per day in the hot summers), use the restroom about 2/3 times a day, run a load of laundry every other day, and run the dishwasher once a day, late at night. Our hot water heater temp is kept intentionally low because my son used to get into the showers and turn them on and almost burned himself once. After that, we asked our landlord to turn it wayyyy down so that we still get warm showers in the winter without risking our son's safety. We do not take multiple showers or loads of dishwasher each day and honestly 3 additional tanks of toilet (when it's "smart"/ "water efficient") for one additional person in the home should hardly move the needle on our water bill.

As for holidays and vacations, again, if your house is energy efficient, it honestly should not make a huge impact on your electric, gas and water bills. Plus, she does pay for that "additionally" usage, right?

Didn't intend for this to be my first response to this awesome thread but as a landlord of multiple properties, chiming in with confidence to say number of people in the house absolutely makes a difference, particularly in water usage. I'm in a LCOL area and consistently see water usage at about $50/person/mo for my multi-families where I pick up the water bill (no split meter) - if I rent a 1 bedroom to 1 person vs 2 it is a small, but noticeable difference that adds up in the scheme of my returns.

[riverwed070707]

This becomes a serious problem because unless the student has been declared legally emancipated, the school still bases aid on the parents' financials even if they refuse to contribute a penny toward the education costs. Then the kid is really screwed. Can't afford things on their own and can't qualify for aid because their parents have plenty of money but won't spend it to educate their child.

This happened to me. My single mother got married at the end of my junior year of high school. I graduated early, moved out and was fully supporting myself by the time I applied for college. Despite that, I had to claim my new stepfathers income on my FAFSA even though I'd barely lived in the same house with him let alone did he have any financial responsibility for me. He made enough that I did not qualify for any aid even though my mother had worked minimum wage jobs her whole adult life and could not help support my education. That was a super crummy situation I wish she would have thought a little harder about before putting me in that position.

[riverwed070707]

Back to the original question! I've definitely found it helpful over the past 13-ish years! From when I was learning to budget to getting out of debt to learning to invest to just tracking my wealth growth over the years. I've learned so much here and continue to have things that come up where I know I can come to this group for solid advice. I'm part of a few FIRE forums and such and I find them interesting but the advice is inconsistent, there are often people trying to sell you things, etc. I like the low-key, conversational style of this group and how consistently everyone has stuck around all these years.