Has the forum helped

[disneysteve]

This might be it. I like to read actual questions on ER and bogelheads about teasing out how to structure their roth conversions, calculating whether the ACA cliff is valuable. But I guess I don't like the judgement of "spending" too much. I worry that if I were to ever post it there it would a bit much of why are you spending so much? I see that a lot. That people can ER already if they would just cut their spending. Which I get, but maybe people don't want to cut their lifestyle. I feel like a lot of ER is sometimes minimizing expenses rather than allowing people to spend and being judged for it.

I'm not bothered by posts from people who clearly have enough to retire and are still asking the question. I get that. We've got $3.2 million and I still posted a "Can I retire?" thread. Pretty much everyone said yes. I needed to hear that from impartial strangers on the internet. Yes I instinctively know we'll be fine if I stop working but retirement is a big unknown void in so many ways. I wanted to hear from people who have done it and make sure there aren't a bunch of things that I simply haven't considered because I don't know they exist.

As for the judgement on spending, it is an ER forum after all. Realistically, most of us could retire a lot earlier than we do if we would moderate our spending and kick up our savings. I know we certainly could. And when there have been posts here where people list their spending, they often get all of the same type of responses pointing out places where they could easily cut back if they want to.

[Scallywag]

It has NOTHING to do with judging other people's spending. It has to do with not-so-humble smug bragging - "Look at me! 6 million dollars NW, 12.5K/month in "discretionary" (not necessity} spending but so very "frugal" because I still drive a "car with cassette tapes" and don't own "boats & jets" like the co-workers & neighbors do! Aien't I all that?"

Do you not get the ludicruosness of this claim? 12.5K in "incidentals" alone each month but driving a car with cassette tapes because "I'm so frugal, I won't buy a new car".

Gee, that's a nice slap in the face to the truly frugal but I truly get your desperate need for validation that you really are "frugal" because you're driving an old old car, and won't buy a boat or jet, while pumping 12.5K on "discretionary" items.


Since when did not buying a jet or a boat epitomize "frugality"?

As for the others, if you're not "that bright" despite earning enough to save 150K PA, ok, then. I just hope I'm not your client or patient!

Again, nothing wrong with spending whatever you want per month - your money, your business. It's the smugness and the bragging that is off-putting but YMMV.

[GoodLiving]

Again, nothing wrong with spending whatever you want per month - your money, your business. It's the smugness and the bragging that is off-putting but YMMV.

Yeah, I just figured these folks are still very insecure and need to feel powerful or something.

[Thrif-t]

I love having a place to come to learn about all things finance. Plus just reading others perspectives, you really learn a lot, at least I have. It's a big world out there, and I tend to stay in my own zip code and not really think about what others are dealing with. Message boards such as this, helps to give me a more worldly perspective on just about everything!

[Scallywag]

Yeah, I just figured these folks are still very insecure and need to feel powerful or something.

Not sure if the smug ones are insecure or not, but they certainly seem to want validation and compliments. They absolutely most likely KNOW that they've made it (esp if they've already run Fire Calc) but apparently still need to show off. Insecure people generally tend not to draw attention to themselves, and I doubt they'd post long and detailed financial pictures, which are intended to fish for compliments while seemingly needing reassurance, if you KWIM?

To be frank, I *do* learn a lot from Bogleheads and ER, and frequently peruse threads but I just don't feel comfortable posting there. I feel like I'll be looked down and that SOME folks there aren't around to help to all but to just "humble brag". Unlike here, which is where I feel most comfortable posting and actually asking for advice.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Not sure if the smug ones are insecure or not, but they certainly seem to want validation and compliments. They absolutely most likely KNOW that they've made it (esp if they've already run Fire Calc) but apparently still need to show off. Insecure people generally tend not to draw attention to themselves, and I doubt they'd post long and detailed financial pictures, which are intended to fish for compliments while seemingly needing reassurance, if you KWIM?

To be frank, I *do* learn a lot from Bogleheads and ER, and frequently peruse threads but I just don't feel comfortable posting there. I feel like I'll be looked down and that SOME folks there aren't around to help to all but to just "humble brag". Unlike here, which is where I feel most comfortable posting and actually asking for advice.

Maybe, but i found a lot of you could retire now if you "cut X, Y, Z." It's pretty rough when people are like "why are you paying $85k/year for private school? Or why are you saving to pay for college or graduate school?" The problem is how it can be a bit abrasive to tell people that they shouldn't spend the money how they want and say they can cut it. In most cases people don't want to hear that they can retire if they cut off their children or spending.

And that's where I see the problem. A lot of values on MMM and ER is cutting spending. Rather than acknowledging that people spend different amounts and values. I notice a that people who really blow that dough don't post about their budget on ER.

[Scallywag]

Maybe, but i found a lot of you could retire now if you "cut X, Y, Z." It's pretty rough when people are like "why are you paying $85k/year for private school? Or why are you saving to pay for college or graduate school?" The problem is how it can be a bit abrasive to tell people that they shouldn't spend the money how they want and say they can cut it. In most cases people don't want to hear that they can retire if they cut off their children or spending.

And that's where I see the problem. A lot of values on MMM and ER is cutting spending. Rather than acknowledging that people spend different amounts and values. I notice a that people who really blow that dough don't post about their budget on ER.

Dave Ramsey is not in favor of college. I remember when I first started listening to him, that was the one thing I had a real problem with. Then I realized that a lot of my neighbors or their kids were all in deep red after borrowing for college, because they learned (too late) that their "degrees" didn't really amount to much once they graduated.

My opinion is that we shouldn't ask the questions we don't want any answers to OR we learn to ignore responses that we disagree with. Once you post in a public forum, it's out there for anyone to come around and respond as they please. If an answer upsets you, just ignore it. No one can force you to cut spending because it's your money and it's your life and they're your kids. They can only point out where you may consider reducing expenditure. If you don't agree, you don't agree. That's it.

On the flip side, if you know that you absolutely won't adhere with any suggestions put forth in a particular forum because the "feel" of that forum does not vibe well with you, then simply don't post. I really don't like posting on ER or Bogleheads because I just don't identify with the "attitude" there. So I read all the threads I can, but never post. Again, if I have any questions, I come here to ask OR I post on Facebook. EOS. That approach has worked swimmingly well for me so far.

[kork13]

Dave Ramsey is not in favor of college. I remember when I first started listening to him, that was the one thing I had a real problem with. Then I realized that a lot of my neighbors or their kids were all in deep red after borrowing for college, because they learned (too late) that their "degrees" didn't really amount to much once they graduated.

I stopped listening to his podcast a while ago, but in fairness... He's not really against college, and in fact advises people to save for college to whatever reasonable extent they're able. He's just opposed to going into debt for college, or getting a degree that doesn't lead into/isn't needed for a job, or a degree that isn't valuable in the job marketplace. Honestly, that part of his advice is really quite good & very rational.

[Scallywag]

I stopped listening to his podcast a while ago, but in fairness... He's not really against college, and in fact advises people to save for college to whatever reasonable extent they're able. He's just opposed to going into debt for college, or getting a degree that doesn't lead into/isn't needed for a job, or a degree that isn't valuable in the job marketplace. Honestly, that part of his advice is really quite good & very rational.

Yes, what I meant was he's against going into debt for college, not that he's against attending college per se. Personally, I think the next "boom" (if you can call it that) is going to be in the trades as it appears that there is currently an acute shortage of tradespeople in HCOL / VHCOL areas.

You don't need to spend an awful lot to go to trade school. I know a kid (19) making 75K a year, detailing cars full-time, and attending community college part time to study automotive repair. 19 years old, already 75K per year and saving most of it by living at home, going to community college for almost free, and really really motivated to make it big.

Then I look at another kid who is 20, studying Philosophy at a UC where the annual cost of room and board is approx 50K. No idea who is paying his tuition, if he gets scholarships or assistantships or not, etc -- and it's none of my business. I do know he works a few hours a week, so there's that, but regardless, I have a feeling that over a long haul, the kid detailing cars will come leaps ahead of the kid with the BA degree. He seems to love what he's studying but what's the ROI on a Philosophy degree? I have NO idea but I would wager it isn't anything close to 75K right out of school, when you MAY have 200K of debt to clear away (if you're going on borrowed monies).

That was my point, really. I would never have said this 5 years ago, but I absolutely do so now. College aien't all that, after all.

But, as always, YMMV.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Probably why I don't post on ER because they would say we spend too much and could ER if we would just curtail our spending. I realized that and decided bad idea but good reading and nice to read about stuff.

College depends on what you make of it. But college degrees do pay off the long term they should how much they are worth. But how you get them is a completely different ballgame. There is no graduate work or professional degrees without them. Does that mean you have to go the most expensive route? Nope. But there are many fields you can't go do without a degree.

But even required fields no one said you have to go to a 4 year degree straight off. Maybe a 2 year college then transferring to a local university while living at home to save money (but you are living on parents dole! so it's not free) is the cheapest way. BUT again many in ER would argue that's still supporting you kids. And one could argue that you could be moving somewhere cheaper, downsizing if you weren't supporting a child through college who might be going to 2 year then 4 year university. You are supplementing their life instead of expecting them to make it on their own. Because you do pay more in utiltiies, foods, insurance, etc.

Just saying that letting a child live "free" isn't free. There are costs involved and some would say that "increases" what you need monthly to spend = more annually = more saved for ER.

[Scallywag]

Probably why I don't post on ER because they would say we spend too much and could ER if we would just curtail our spending. I realized that and decided bad idea but good reading and nice to read about stuff.

College depends on what you make of it. But college degrees do pay off the long term they should how much they are worth. But how you get them is a completely different ballgame. There is no graduate work or professional degrees without them. Does that mean you have to go the most expensive route? Nope. But there are many fields you can't go do without a degree.

But even required fields no one said you have to go to a 4 year degree straight off. Maybe a 2 year college then transferring to a local university while living at home to save money (but you are living on parents dole! so it's not free) is the cheapest way. BUT again many in ER would argue that's still supporting you kids. And one could argue that you could be moving somewhere cheaper, downsizing if you weren't supporting a child through college who might be going to 2 year then 4 year university. You are supplementing their life instead of expecting them to make it on their own. Because you do pay more in utiltiies, foods, insurance, etc.

Just saying that letting a child live "free" isn't free. There are costs involved and some would say that "increases" what you need monthly to spend = more annually = more saved for ER.

Bluntly speaking, it's BS to not want to support a kid doing something worthwhile with their lives. That includes anything and everything aside from not partying / drinking / doing drugs / playing video games all day long.

And, also bluntly speaking, the parents HAVE to live somewhere. I cannot think of a single place in California where there's no community college within driving distance, even in rural communities. Your costs don't go up simply because a kid is living with you, unless that kid is drinking all day long or doing drugs on your dime, in which case you boot them out. Most parents aren't ready to retire as soon as the kid turns 18 - and that is not just financially speaking but also for other reasons. Many want to stay in the community where they've raised their families, want to continue working because they're workaholics, or because they have family / friends in the area (like elderly parents / siblings / church / lifelong friends) etc. So if ER says, "just up and move", you don't have to march especially if you've paid your house off.

And I ask this very respectfully, but how do utilities increase if your kid is living with you? I can understand food and I absolutely disagree with insurance. If kid needs a reliable mode of transportation to go to work or go to college then kid looks into either public transport (if close enough), electric scooters / motor scooters / mopeds. You ABSOLUTELY do NOT need a car and take on the steep cost of gas and insurance, period. And even if you want to get your kid a car, no one ever said that you, the parent, needs to buy said car and pay for gas and insurance, unless you want to and can afford it.

I read a book by Chris Balish years ago about how you can live well without a car, and how cars are just a drain of money because they are "instant modes of transportation at a convenience", so I have been encouraging my kid to use an electric scooter at this time. If / when she needs something which can go longer distances, and if her destination can be reached via inner city roads (not the highway), then I would tell her to buy a motor scooter or a moped. IF she still needs a car because the place of work or college is not accessible without going on the highway, THEN I would front the money for a solid, safer newer car, but in ALL cases, gas and insurance will be her responsibility. Why? Because if she's old enough to need a car / motor scooter / moped, then she's old enough to pay for the associated gas & insurance expenses herself. The only reason I will pay for a new car is when she needs to use the highways and for her safety as newer cars are safer (in my opinion) than older ones. IF she is careless with it or gets into an at-fault wreck, then a replacement mode of transportation would be HER responsibility to figure out.

Yes, this sounds hard, but it's part of being a GROWN UP and part of not coddling your adult children to the point where there're still being kids in Mom's and Dad's home. IF parents are renting, and the kid has a job or is NOT a full-time student, then kid pays an equitable (not an equal, but an equitable) amount of the rent. IF the kid is not a full-time student, then she gets a part-time job. If she is not a student at all, then she works full time. EOS. In our case, we would determine what her equitable share would be by taking her income, calculating what % that is of our total household income, and then assign her that portion of the rent, provided it does not take all of her income leaving her with nothing to pay for her needs and some wants. So, let's say she makes $100 per month after taxes, and we make $1000 a month after taxes. That would make her income 9% of our total household income, so she pays 9% of the total rent, while we pay the remaining 91%. We will also charge her 9% of the groceries, utilities, internet, cable etc, up to a monthly max of 50% of her net income. The remaining 50% is for her needs & wants and savings in a bank or a ROTH IRA.

We would absolutely kick her out if she doesn't go to school full time and doesn't have a job. That would be the hardest thing for us to do but I would be an enabler if I didn't. However, we would be crediting all the rent and other expenses she's shared back to her in an a/c that she has no access to or no knowledge of on her 30th birthday, provided she's by then a fully responsible adult who has done us proud.

My point of this rambling rant is that having adult kids live with you isn't the disaster it's made out to be so long as you treat them like ADULTS and not like minor dependent children. None of the above applies to my son with a severe disability but it all applies to my NT kid 200%

[james.hendrickson]

Bluntly speaking, it's BS to not want to support a kid doing something worthwhile with their lives. That includes anything and everything aside from not partying / drinking / doing drugs / playing video games all day long.

And, also bluntly speaking, the parents HAVE to live somewhere. I cannot think of a single place in California where there's no community college within driving distance, even in rural communities. Your costs don't go up simply because a kid is living with you, unless that kid is drinking all day long or doing drugs on your dime, in which case you boot them out. Most parents aren't ready to retire as soon as the kid turns 18 - and that is not just financially speaking but also for other reasons. Many want to stay in the community where they've raised their families, want to continue working because they're workaholics, or because they have family / friends in the area (like elderly parents / siblings / church / lifelong friends) etc. So if ER says, "just up and move", you don't have to march especially if you've paid your house off.

And I ask this very respectfully, but how do utilities increase if your kid is living with you? I can understand food and I absolutely disagree with insurance. If kid needs a reliable mode of transportation to go to work or go to college then kid looks into either public transport (if close enough), electric scooters / motor scooters / mopeds. You ABSOLUTELY do NOT need a car and take on the steep cost of gas and insurance, period. And even if you want to get your kid a car, no one ever said that you, the parent, needs to buy said car and pay for gas and insurance, unless you want to and can afford it.

I read a book by Chris Balish years ago about how you can live well without a car, and how cars are just a drain of money because they are "instant modes of transportation at a convenience", so I have been encouraging my kid to use an electric scooter at this time. If / when she needs something which can go longer distances, and if her destination can be reached via inner city roads (not the highway), then I would tell her to buy a motor scooter or a moped. IF she still needs a car because the place of work or college is not accessible without going on the highway, THEN I would front the money for a solid, safer newer car, but in ALL cases, gas and insurance will be her responsibility. Why? Because if she's old enough to need a car / motor scooter / moped, then she's old enough to pay for the associated gas & insurance expenses herself. The only reason I will pay for a new car is when she needs to use the highways and for her safety as newer cars are safer (in my opinion) than older ones. IF she is careless with it or gets into an at-fault wreck, then a replacement mode of transportation would be HER responsibility to figure out.

Yes, this sounds hard, but it's part of being a GROWN UP and part of not coddling your adult children to the point where there're still being kids in Mom's and Dad's home. IF parents are renting, and the kid has a job or is NOT a full-time student, then kid pays an equitable (not an equal, but an equitable) amount of the rent. IF the kid is not a full-time student, then she gets a part-time job. If she is not a student at all, then she works full time. EOS. In our case, we would determine what her equitable share would be by taking her income, calculating what % that is of our total household income, and then assign her that portion of the rent, provided it does not take all of her income leaving her with nothing to pay for her needs and some wants. So, let's say she makes $100 per month after taxes, and we make $1000 a month after taxes. That would make her income 9% of our total household income, so she pays 9% of the total rent, while we pay the remaining 91%. We will also charge her 9% of the groceries, utilities, internet, cable etc, up to a monthly max of 50% of her net income. The remaining 50% is for her needs & wants and savings in a bank or a ROTH IRA.

We would absolutely kick her out if she doesn't go to school full time and doesn't have a job. That would be the hardest thing for us to do but I would be an enabler if I didn't. However, we would be crediting all the rent and other expenses she's shared back to her in an a/c that she has no access to or no knowledge of on her 30th birthday, provided she's by then a fully responsible adult who has done us proud.

My point of this rambling rant is that having adult kids live with you isn't the disaster it's made out to be so long as you treat them like ADULTS and not like minor dependent children. None of the above applies to my son with a severe disability but it all applies to my NT kid 200%

Best post of the day. Scallywag is on a roll. If I could give this posting an award, I would.

[disneysteve]

I ask this very respectfully, but how do utilities increase if your kid is living with you?

Utilities are definitely higher if you have more people in the home. Ours dropped significantly when our daughter was away at college and went back up when she came home. Not really hard to understand why. More showers. More toilet flushing. More dish washing. More loads of laundry. More electricity being used. It was absolutely noticeable when there were 2 vs 3 living in the house.

Another thing is that if my wife and I go out of town but our daughter is home, we can't shut things down. If it was just the 2 of us, we'd turn down the hot water heater, adjust the heat/AC, and turn off and unplug a bunch of things. Can't do that if there's still someone in the house. Even if we just go out for the day, we can't turn down the thermostat.

So yes, utilities are definitely impacted by having your kid live with you.

[Scallywag]

Best post of the day. Scallywag is on a roll. If I could give this posting an award, I would.

Thank you, James!

[Scallywag]

Utilities are definitely higher if you have more people in the home. Ours dropped significantly when our daughter was away at college and went back up when she came home. Not really hard to understand why. More showers. More toilet flushing. More dish washing. More loads of laundry. More electricity being used. It was absolutely noticeable when there were 2 vs 3 living in the house.

Another thing is that if my wife and I go out of town but our daughter is home, we can't shut things down. If it was just the 2 of us, we'd turn down the hot water heater, adjust the heat/AC, and turn off and unplug a bunch of things. Can't do that if there's still someone in the house. Even if we just go out for the day, we can't turn down the thermostat.

So yes, utilities are definitely impacted by having your kid live with you.

Well, I'll disagree with you. if you have "smart meters" / water efficient shower heads & toilets, solar for energy etc, utilities don't make a HUGE difference at all. Heat and air conditioning are centralized, so it would be the same whether 3 people or 5 people or 10 people are living in the house. Also, we're talking about adult children not moving out on their 18th birthday but having them continue living with you. So it's not like your utility bills suddenly start to shoot up. Also, they're contributing towards costs in an equitable manner, so your net expenses should go down, not up.

We each take a shower a day (2 showers each per day in the hot summers), use the restroom about 2/3 times a day, run a load of laundry every other day, and run the dishwasher once a day, late at night. Our hot water heater temp is kept intentionally low because my son used to get into the showers and turn them on and almost burned himself once. After that, we asked our landlord to turn it wayyyy down so that we still get warm showers in the winter without risking our son's safety. We do not take multiple showers or loads of dishwasher each day and honestly 3 additional tanks of toilet (when it's "smart"/ "water efficient") for one additional person in the home should hardly move the needle on our water bill.

As for holidays and vacations, again, if your house is energy efficient, it honestly should not make a huge impact on your electric, gas and water bills. Plus, she does pay for that "additionally" usage, right?