I hate the phrase "Keeping up with the Joneses"

[HundredK]

Do folks generally really believe that all debt problems are caused by people attempting to "Keep up with the Joneses"? If I could choose one phrase to not see used ever again, I think it would be that one. It's so presumptuous and filled with arrogance.

I, for one, managed to get in the mess I'm in without giving one **** about the Joneses. :-)

Thoughts?

[disneysteve]

Whether you like the expression or not, a great many people do get themselves into deep financial difficulty by trying to have what others around them have, regardless of whether or not they can afford it, which is what the expression means.

You visit your friend and drool over his 60" TV only to come home to your 25" TV and decide you need to upgrade.

Your brother picks you up in his shiny new Lexus and suddenly your somewhat worn Chevy just isn't good enough any more.

Several of your neighbors have done hardscaping projects in recent months and you feel like your house doesn't measure up and you need to bring it up to par with the others.

Your work buddies invite you out to dinner at a restaurant that's really out of your price range but you're too embarrassed to say no so off you go to drop a bundle on a meal that you don't really even care about.

There are dozens of things, small and large, that get people into trouble by trying to "keep up" with others.

[HundredK]

Wow, yeah, I just can't relate to that really at all. I'm plenty good at getting myself into trouble, and don't require any outside influence. Heh.

[disneysteve]

Wow, yeah, I just can't relate to that really at all. I'm plenty good at getting myself into trouble, and don't require any outside influence. Heh.

What about advertisements? Things we see on TV shows or movies? Store displays? You may not even realize it's happening but surely at some point you have bought something due to some outside influence. What made you pick your cell phone, your car, a vacation destination, etc? Did you ever try a new restaurant because a friend recommended it? We are all being influenced, blatantly and subtly, to buy new things all of the time. It isn't always to keep up with a particular individual but we're sold on the message that the new thing is better than what we've got and we need to have it.

[HundredK]

What about advertisements? Things we see on TV shows or movies? Store displays? You may not even realize it's happening but surely at some point you have bought something due to some outside influence. What made you pick your cell phone, your car, a vacation destination, etc? Did you ever try a new restaurant because a friend recommended it? We are all being influenced, blatantly and subtly, to buy new things all of the time. It isn't always to keep up with a particular individual but we're sold on the message that the new thing is better than what we've got and we need to have it.

Fair point. And marketing certainly plays into it. But the phrase "Keeping up with the Joneses" implies that you're jealously coveting what your neighbors/friends own. I've certainly bought things out of curiosity, have tried new restaurants based on a recommendation, all of that. But I have an unquenchable thirst for adventure and would do that regardless. I can not ever, at any point, recall being jealous of something that someone else has. Maybe because I have never really been wanting for anything during my adult life until recently? Maybe I will be soon?

[Butterscotch]

I hate that expression too. Most people that I know who are overwhelmed by debt got that way through student loans to advance their careers, medical issues, legal problems, or some other event that knocked them down.

It can be frustrating to see people post comments like "Why don't people just spend less than they make?!?" Or "Why would somebody spend $Xxx!?!" Every situation has circumstances surrounding it that makes accurate judgement from an ivory tower nearly impossible.

I'm not disagreeing that some people buy things to enhance thier "status" or "image", but sweeping everyone in debt into the catagory of KUWTJ irritates me as well.

[HundredK]

You know what though, after thinking about it for a moment, I don't think I will start being jealous. I grew up in poverty (which I still view differently than just being poor for those of you keeping up with the other post, hehe), homeless off and on, moving constantly, no consistency, horrible abusive parents, pretty awful stuff. And never once did I feel jealous of all the people who had things; they just had a different lot in life. I remember from the age of 3 or 4 thinking that I would find a way to pave my own path and accomplish the things I wanted to in life. And I have. I guess now financial responsibility is on that list, and I wish it had happened sooner, but it is what it is. My brain is probably just wired differently than most people.

[disneysteve]

My brain is probably just wired differently than most people.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. I'm the same way clearly. A lot of people look at the shiny BMW go by and say, "That guy must be doing really well" while I say, "I bet it's a lease or he's up to his eyeballs in debt." It's all about mindset. That's not to say that I don't appreciate how nice the car is, but I have no desire to own one if I can't comfortably afford to do so.

[HundredK]

It can be frustrating to see people post comments like "Why don't people just spend less than they make?!?" Or "Why would somebody spend $Xxx!?!" Every situation has circumstances surrounding it that makes accurate judgement from an ivory tower nearly impossible.

THIS. Exactly my point, and well said.

Also, even if there are those who buy things based on jealousy, there must be a less abrasive way to point it out. I can't imagine anyone being told that, and then saying "gosh, yeah, never occurred to me, thanks so much for the helpful input".

[Singuy]

Hmmm, so there are two camps of people I guess

Camp 1. You buy things you can't afford to not to be look down upon..keeping up with the joneses.

Camp 2. You buy you things you can't afford because you like x, y, and z...and you can't see yourself without this

I would say camp 1 is buying things for the wrong reason, but camp 2 has way more debt since there's no ceiling to your own personal desires..considering you are getting yourself into debt to satisfy it.

[Snydley]

How did you get into the "mess your in" HundredK? Just curious.

'Keeping up with the Joneses" is not about overt, conscious jealousy; it is a subtle but powerful force in our society. DH and I absolutely do not keep up with the Joneses, and we are routinely picked on by our peers/friends. DH drives an old Corolla and his co-workers sometimes 'good-naturedly' pick on his car. I have an older smart phone that I bought on ebay; the phone splits group texts and doesn't allow me to 'reply all'. I was out to dinner with some girlfriends who started talking about my phone ('jokingly') and announced that they were going to buy me a 'real' phone. The woman leading the charge in the conversation is in financial trouble and her family income is ~1/3 of mine.

We didn't buy a new, shiny colonial but an older, 'country farm house' style home (with old bathrooms and some cracks in the ceiling). My mother was visibly disappointed the first time she visited, although she'd never admit it if I asked her.

If we purchased what was needed to avoid these disappointing looks and jokes (from our 'Joneses'), we would absolutely not be able to retire when I am 62, if ever.

[disneysteve]

Camp 1. You buy things you can't afford to not to be look down upon..keeping up with the joneses.

We've always made it a point not to associate with people who would look down on us based on material things. When we've come across people like that, even if we initially started out as friends, we quickly drifted away when that attitude showed itself. We don't need that in our lives.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Out of curiosity I did a search in these forums on "keeping up with the Joneses." This whole year, other than this thread, there were only four threads in which that phrase was used, and in one of them, the original poster opened with saying he had a problem involving keeping up with the Joneses.

But four threads out of what must be thousands-- doesn't sound like we throw around the phrase too much.

Probably, then, you did not mean literally that phrase is used in judgement. Probably you are sensing judgement in a lot of posts where that isn't actually said.

I have in the last few months kind of been bothered by a self-congratulatory "most of us here are different" attitude. I like there being a lot of people who really are different, who really do have their finances and spending under control, but I also don't want others to feel alienated by such superior creatures-- ahem.

That's similar to how I wish there were more mid-middle and lower income people who posted here. I think there used to be more. I'd love to see and participate in more of those really nitty-gritty posts about small money savings and how to live decently on a very humble income. Heck, if someone could have told me what glue to use on my LLBean mocs since the sole had been splitting, I'd love that kind of very practical input! I love make do and mend posts! I'm afraid a "we've all got our act together" attitude on these forums could make it uncomfortable for people looking for those tiny kinds of suggestions that really do add up over a lifetime.

I can believe that you have not felt jealous. I can believe that because I don't feel and never have felt jealous. Really. Actually, I've wondered about this and thought that people who wish for what others have might actually have better social instincts than I have. No, I'm more likely to become the hermit living in the broken down house with a bazillion dollars and no friends, than I am to be the person who has all the latest and greatest plus plenty of friends to enjoy it with. When there is something I want, I'm likely to simply want it whether I know of anyone else who has it or not. An example of that is one that I've spoken of probably a dozen times. For I long, long time I wanted some riverside property on which to grow walnut trees for lumber. I don't know anyone with a tree farm, I don't know anyone with riverside property. I live in the city where there is nothing like that around to stimulate my jealousy. It is just something I wanted. (Um, but I never bought this because other things took priority, including the boring saving for a rainy day [now there's one of those phrases I do like ]and saving for retirement.
*

[vseddie]

I've had my open motorcycle licence for a while now. My only form of transportation is my 10yr old Honda 250cc motorcycle that I ride every day to work. Everyone that's into bikes that I know gives me crap because supposedly everything smaller than a 600cc is either only for learners or girls.

They're all out getting big bikes worth as much as new cars on credit and they ride maybe once a month.

I've been really tempted to go out and get bikes like them but I've got more important goals right now.

[HundredK]

Out of curiosity I did a search in these forums on "keeping up with the Joneses." This whole year, other than this thread, there were only four threads in which that phrase was used, and in one of them, the original poster opened with saying he had a problem involving keeping up with the Joneses.

But four threads out of what must be thousands-- doesn't sound like we throw around the phrase too much.
*

I don't think I said it was only on this site, but when I search for "Joneses" here, I get 116 results, and more than 4 for this year. And there are lots of combinations that could essentially create that phrase, so it's probably much more.

Regardless, it wasn't my intent to point fingers on this site, I linger on lots of sites, and this seems like almost an anger that people who have their **** together harbor toward people who don't. I find it interesting. And this is the only site I post on, because it's a good group of people. So I'm just trying to open a discussion.