Ethics of Giving to Charity while in Debt?

[Fishindude77]

Seems a bit like saying "I can't pay you what I owe but I'm going to steal your money and give it away."

Seems a bit like stealing to me.


I agree with your initial thoughts above.

[GoodSteward]

The infamous where is it in the NT?

We need to establish something off the top. Was Jesus talking to the jews only, or to everybody? There are references to tithes in a reply to the Pharisees. A lot of people say this was meant to just them, however, if you can claim that then where does that leave Gentiles? Jesus pretty much only ever talked to Jews. Everything he said about salvation, how to live, and corrections that supersede the mosaic law (such as on marriage) apply to everybody. Jesus was talking to the Jews, but teaching the whole world. IF you feel it doesn’t apply to us, then what does apply? How do you know? It simply doesn’t work like that.

Mat 23:23 and Luke 11:42 make a reference to how the Pharisees tithe on every small thing, but forget the spirit of God. Jesus confirms here paying tithes is right, but not having mercy and judgement is wrong. You should be doing both. If this was only to the Pharisees then we don’t need to have mercy and judgement, that was just for them.

Should we pay taxes to Caesar? That is what Jesus was asked, and he asked in return to “Shew me the tribute money.” A tribute is money owed, similar to what we call taxes. He ended this lesson by stating “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.” Meaning there is money owed to Caesar, known as taxes, and there is money owed to God, which are tithes and offerings. This scripture bares out there is money, or tribute, owed to God. What else is there besides what God started in the beginning? Tithes and offerings.

We are told in Romans 13:6-7 that ministers that work for God should be honored and supported financially. The only way that is possible is for a system of economics to be in place, like a business. God knew this and although we pay in obedience to God, He intends for the money to support ministry work. This is similar to the Levites, but not exactly the same today. Not under the law, but the concept is still the same.

If it wasn’t for God we wouldn’t have anything. We are stewards, meaning we don’t own anything but we are caretakers and treasurers for him. All he asks is 10% plus a little extra in offerings given to support his work. All the rest he leaves up to us to live on, hopefully following other biblical principles to avoid bad financial situations. The bible teaches to avoid debt as much as possible, save for the future, that it’s foolish to cosign for someone, and debt forgiveness even. The concept of bankruptcy actually came from the bible in the law. He issued times of debt forgiveness.

If God calls not paying tithes robbing him, I would much rather be late on a bill than not pay God. I have discussed this many times in the past, and I find that most people already have decided to either pay or not pay. If you don't want to pay, you will never accept anything as justifying it. If you want to pay, it all seems logical to pay. That's why I don't like getting into this because it becomes a never ending cycle of uselessness. However, I posted to appease those who keep posting and asking.

[Magnificence]

stealing I don t know, but its nuts to give to charity when you are in deep debt...

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Zagat as explained to me is muslim giving.

[Eagle]

Giving is a personal matter and it would be unethical to not pay a bill just to give someone a meal unless you feel God directly leading you, in which case the money will still come up and the bill will still be paid. I haven’t said that much before, but since we are getting religious I might as well throw some of that in. If God asks you to give, even when you don’t really have it, he will make it up. I have given to help someone before(when I felt lead to, which isn’t often) when it was all the money I had to pay for the next meal, and when it was time to eat someone else paid for my family. This is rare, and not the norm. You can’t live like this, but you also shouldn’t shut God out just because your money isn’t overflowing at the moment.

***** Please remember I wasn’t going to get into all this, but it continues to be pushed so here we go.

While we are engraphed Jews according to the New Testament we are not bound by the Mosaic Law. That is a reference to how Jesus made us God’s people through salvation, and not to us needing to live like Jews. I believe this is why God gave us his law and THEN gave his people what we call the Mosaic Law. He separated them to start with so we understand his law (the 10 commandments) carries on, but the Mosaic Law was only for a season before Jesus came. The generic word law is sometimes used to reference God’s law and the Moasic law. You just have to understand the context of scripture.

We need to be careful using any part of the Mosaic Law as our grounds for anything we follow today. If you follow any of it, you would be hypocritical for not trying to follow all of it. Good luck with that since it wasn’t possible. That is the whole reason Jesus had to come. We can’t use the Mosaic Law for tithing, because we would then need to stone people for adultery, and make girls who get raped marry the guy that raped them. How about that, fathers? So, I agree with all of you that we do not live under the law (mosaic law).

Tithing, and giving offerings, weren’t just Mosaic law ideas. As I’ve referenced before the whole Cain and Able thing was before the law and over offerings to God. Abraham gave a tenth of his spoils from freeing Lott in tithes, before the law. Paul used this reference as a way to show how there is a priesthood that supersedes the Arron priesthood. Jesus came from that priesthood, not the one under the law. This is why that one reference was made about Abraham, but we can’t assume it was his only time he paid. So the concepts and understanding that there are offerings due to God was initiated at the beginning and has never been done away with or shown to no longer be needed.

In the law, it was defined. So was marriage. Marriage was going on before the law, but just because it was in the law doesn’t mean we no longer have marriage since the law is done. So where does that leave tithing?
In Malachi, God said it was robbing him to not pay. That doesn’t have to be applied to just Israel, because tithes don’t just apply to them. It’s from this reference that we understand not paying is robbing and that by paying we are blessed and protected.

A tithe means a tenth, which is where 10% comes from. I'm making a new post about the NT references.

GoodSteward, I appreciate you taking the time to expand on your thoughts on the subject.

The way I see it we only know what the Bible tells us. Again, there’s no recording of Abraham ever tithing again or prior to the one incident when he rescued Lot. We can’t assume one way or another if there was ever another tithe given by Abraham. What we do know is that later Jacob gave a conditional 10% in order for God to bless him. Since he must have been taught this, by the same logic you’ve provided, we could infer he learned this idea from his relatives. While giving may be pre-law the idea of giving 10% is only mentioned twice previously. One time on the spoils of war with Abraham and not on his actual increase. The other time as conditional request by Jacob for God’s blessing.

So neither of these is in reference to giving to a storehouse or in support of a temple correct?

The comparison between marriage and tithing is interesting. However, it’s much like comparing apples to bananas in my opinion. That said…

Here’s my take on Malachi. I’m sure we can agree the context of Malachi is important. It is a post-exilic book, meaning it was written after the return of Israel from captivity in Babylon. The prophet Malachi wrote it approximately 440 B.C. given the mention of the Persian-era term for governor (pehâ).

First, the context of the law given to Moses was that of a theocracy. The government was formed with the deity (God) as the source from which all authority derived. God’s laws were the statute of the kingdom administered by a priestly order.

Second, the specific issue in Malachi was Israelites were not bringing their offerings to the temple. This meant that the priests (Levites) were having to work the land to provide for their own food instead of tending to their priestly duties.

Third, God expected the priesthood to take care of their duties in leading the people of Israel in worshipping God and instead the priests were leading the people astray. The priests did this by offering polluted offerings (Malachi 1) which resulted in God rebuking the priests (Malachi 2).

Fourth, when we get to Malachi 3 we have to keep the context of the passage as mentioned above in mind. If God blesses those who give a tithe does that mean God also curses those who do not? Does God curse believers in Jesus?

[Eagle]

The infamous where is it in the NT?

We need to establish something off the top. Was Jesus talking to the jews only, or to everybody? There are references to tithes in a reply to the Pharisees. A lot of people say this was meant to just them, however, if you can claim that then where does that leave Gentiles? Jesus pretty much only ever talked to Jews. Everything he said about salvation, how to live, and corrections that supersede the mosaic law (such as on marriage) apply to everybody. Jesus was talking to the Jews, but teaching the whole world. IF you feel it doesn’t apply to us, then what does apply? How do you know? It simply doesn’t work like that.

Mat 23:23 and Luke 11:42 make a reference to how the Pharisees tithe on every small thing, but forget the spirit of God. Jesus confirms here paying tithes is right, but not having mercy and judgement is wrong. You should be doing both. If this was only to the Pharisees then we don’t need to have mercy and judgement, that was just for them.

Should we pay taxes to Caesar? That is what Jesus was asked, and he asked in return to “Shew me the tribute money.” A tribute is money owed, similar to what we call taxes. He ended this lesson by stating “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.” Meaning there is money owed to Caesar, known as taxes, and there is money owed to God, which are tithes and offerings. This scripture bares out there is money, or tribute, owed to God. What else is there besides what God started in the beginning? Tithes and offerings.

We are told in Romans 13:6-7 that ministers that work for God should be honored and supported financially. The only way that is possible is for a system of economics to be in place, like a business. God knew this and although we pay in obedience to God, He intends for the money to support ministry work. This is similar to the Levites, but not exactly the same today. Not under the law, but the concept is still the same.

If it wasn’t for God we wouldn’t have anything. We are stewards, meaning we don’t own anything but we are caretakers and treasurers for him. All he asks is 10% plus a little extra in offerings given to support his work. All the rest he leaves up to us to live on, hopefully following other biblical principles to avoid bad financial situations. The bible teaches to avoid debt as much as possible, save for the future, that it’s foolish to cosign for someone, and debt forgiveness even. The concept of bankruptcy actually came from the bible in the law. He issued times of debt forgiveness.

If God calls not paying tithes robbing him, I would much rather be late on a bill than not pay God. I have discussed this many times in the past, and I find that most people already have decided to either pay or not pay. If you don't want to pay, you will never accept anything as justifying it. If you want to pay, it all seems logical to pay. That's why I don't like getting into this because it becomes a never ending cycle of uselessness. However, I posted to appease those who keep posting and asking.

First on what I agree with.

I agree we as Christians are simply stewards. The whole concept of stewardship should do away with the mindset that says, “Ten percent of what I own is to be given to God, but the remaining ninety percent is mine.” It is all God’s. As stewards, we are to wisely invest it for the glory of God and the advancement of His kingdom.

I agree with you it makes sense that those who minister the Gospel should be honored and helped financially. The principle in the New Testament is to give voluntarily to support the needs of others (Acts 2:45; Romans 15:25-27), support Christian workers (1 Corinthians 9:11-12; Galatians 6:6; 1 Timothy 5:17-18), and expand Christian outreach (Philippians 4:15-16). We are to give to the poor, especially the saints (Acts 6:1-6; Romans 12:13; 1 Corinthians 16:1f.; 2 Corinthians 8 & 9; Gal. 2:10; 6:10; etc.). No specific amount is ever commanded, and no percentage is suggested. While a tithe or tenth of one’s finances may be a good standard or goal to use for Christian giving, it is clear the early church did not focus on a specific amount but rather on meeting needs.

The question I think needs to be asked is as follows: Does the New Testament (A) embrace and continue, or (B) modify, or (C) do away with this Old Testament practice?

Full disclosure: Funny enough I was taught the concept of tithing growing up but changed my mind a couple years ago on the subject when studying the Bible for myself. I personally believe tithing (or giving 10%) can be modified and looked as a good goal to work up to 10% in giving. Starting with 1% and working your way up from there. There’s even in my opinion a case for doing away with the OT practice all together. To embrace and continue is also an option but the modern teaching on tithing is not all consistent with tithing as described in the mosaic law.

As far as the passage in Matthew 23 and Luke 11, Jesus was directing his comments to the Pharisees and not His followers. In fact, Jesus was making a comparison between what the Jewish leaders should do (tithe) and what they actually did (lack justice, mercy, & faithfulness). Of note while Jesus affirms tithing for the Pharisees He never transfers that to His followers. Seems if this was something He wanted us to follow He’d have mentioned it clearly. This makes sense that Jesus would tell Jews to tithe since again the tithe was to support the priestly deities, widows, orphans and foreigners. The 2nd temple (the one built by Herod) in Jerusalem had not been destroyed yet. Thus, under the Mosaic law, it made sense for Jesus to tell Jews to pay the tithe or temple tax (Mark 12:17) to support the temple where they worshipped.

As far as I read in the New Testament, neither Jesus nor any of His apostles (or the NT writers) taught the necessity of tithing. Neither can we find any statement that they did tithe. In other words there is no evidence that Jesus’s apostles practiced tithing. Jesus did pay the temple tax (Matthew 17:24-27), but we do not read of Him paying a tithe. Makes sense since we have no account of him owning land or property that produced anything to tithe from.

I don't think robbing God is applicable here. God doesn't need our tithe or giving. How we interact with others is significantly more important in my opinion. See Psalm 37:21 and Romans 13:8 for example.

How do you view 2 Corinthians 9:7 in light of tithing? The way I see it tithing seems like a personal conviction not a universal, Biblical truth applying to all Christians.

[GoodSteward]

GoodSteward, I appreciate you taking the time to expand on your thoughts on the subject.

The way I see it we only know what the Bible tells us. Again, there’s no recording of Abraham ever tithing again or prior to the one incident when he rescued Lot. We can’t assume one way or another if there was ever another tithe given by Abraham. What we do know is that later Jacob gave a conditional 10% in order for God to bless him. Since he must have been taught this, by the same logic you’ve provided, we could infer he learned this idea from his relatives. While giving may be pre-law the idea of giving 10% is only mentioned twice previously. One time on the spoils of war with Abraham and not on his actual increase. The other time as conditional request by Jacob for God’s blessing.

So neither of these is in reference to giving to a storehouse or in support of a temple correct?

The comparison between marriage and tithing is interesting. However, it’s much like comparing apples to bananas in my opinion. That said…

Here’s my take on Malachi. I’m sure we can agree the context of Malachi is important. It is a post-exilic book, meaning it was written after the return of Israel from captivity in Babylon. The prophet Malachi wrote it approximately 440 B.C. given the mention of the Persian-era term for governor (pehâ).

First, the context of the law given to Moses was that of a theocracy. The government was formed with the deity (God) as the source from which all authority derived. God’s laws were the statute of the kingdom administered by a priestly order.

Second, the specific issue in Malachi was Israelites were not bringing their offerings to the temple. This meant that the priests (Levites) were having to work the land to provide for their own food instead of tending to their priestly duties.

Third, God expected the priesthood to take care of their duties in leading the people of Israel in worshipping God and instead the priests were leading the people astray. The priests did this by offering polluted offerings (Malachi 1) which resulted in God rebuking the priests (Malachi 2).

Fourth, when we get to Malachi 3 we have to keep the context of the passage as mentioned above in mind. If God blesses those who give a tithe does that mean God also curses those who do not? Does God curse believers in Jesus?

Correct, but remember the OT was given to us for learning. There is a reason God didn’t want everything listed. Also, just because they understood a concept didn’t’ mean they did it right. Jesus only gives allowances for a single spouse, but we see Abraham having more than one. That doesn’t make Marriage wrong. There is a lot that people did wrong in the OT that Jesus had to fix. The only lesson I see and use in this reference, as far as tithing goes, is that tithing was a known concept.

As for the rest of your comments. What you reference is true, but again we use much of the OT to learn the mind of God through his comments and requests. What does God want? He was addressing some specific things to the nation of Israel, his people, however, he never told them before not paying was robbing. Malichi is the first place I’ve known for that statement to be. To me that indicates it wasn’t just in the law that it would be robbing God. In other words, it isn't a Mosaic law fact of robbing GOd, it applies to not paying God outside the law as well.

[GoodSteward]

When discussing these things we have to pull and read between the lines sometimes. No, that isn’t wrong to do. It’s the results of us hijacking letters that the sender and receiver already knew the contents of. For instance, Paul sent replies to questions and things he knew was going on. The NT isn’t like a clean little list of things to follow. It’s narratives, first-hand accounts, letters, etc that we must read and pull doctrine out of. That’s why a verse can say one thing, and then another says something seemingly different. The problem isn’t the verses, it’s our thinking.

If I sent you a letter regarding specific comments related to what has been said on this forum, and someone who has never been to this forum gets the letters how likely do you think they would be to understand everything we are talking about? Now add some more letters, and it might get clearer. Add a bunch of background info, OT, and it gets even easier; however, it never gets fool proof. We need God to help us. What we are discussing isn’t just a literary subject, but a spiritual one. Even Jesus had to open the disciples understanding to the scriptures. They read it before, but didn’t realize it was talking about him until Jesus revealed it. Luk_24:45 "Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures." Sometimes we need help.

At the same time, the Ten Commandments were never listed out in the NT either. Some were mentioned, and Paul mentioned it as “law” some, but since they were not listed specifically we can do away with those not called by name? The NT isn’t written like the Mosaic Law. If you pick it apart like that you will miss things, and misinterpret as well. We do need to take stuff in context, but there is very little Jesus did, if anything for that matter, that doesn’t apply to us as well.

Giving tithes should be done voluntarily, just like living for God is voluntary. The bible says if we are not saved we will go to Hell. That doesn’t mean we HAVE to be saved, but if you want to avoid going to Hell, we follow. Same for tithes. You can technically not pay, but that doesn’t make you clear before God if you know you should be. Sure, you may be ok. I don’t understand God’s mercy but I do understand God’s chastising and I know better than to not pay now.

What I’m gathering here is that even though it is referenced all through the bible, since it doesn’t say somewhere “thou shoult tithe” it isn’t required. Like I mentioned before if you don’t want to pay you will read the bible in a way that indicates it isn’t required. I’m happily paying and kept paying even when I couldn’t buy food years ago. God provided(through the charity of others), and I’m doing better than ever now. I didn’t pay my tithes to get stuff, I paid because I felt God wanted me to and I see it in the bible. It's only ever been a blessing to me.

[klarose]

Thank you Good Steward. My thoughts exactly. You are much much better than I at explaining things eloquently. I just make a mess. lol.

But my feelings are the same. I don't tithe because I feel like I have to or else I will be cursed. I tithe because I think it is pleasing to God, and I've always been blessed by doing it. Same as you I've never gone hungry, or couldn't pay my bills because I was too generous.

[GoodSteward]

Thank you Good Steward. My thoughts exactly. You are much much better than I at explaining things eloquently. I just make a mess. lol.

But my feelings are the same. I don't tithe because I feel like I have to or else I will be cursed. I tithe because I think it is pleasing to God, and I've always been blessed by doing it. Same as you I've never gone hungry, or couldn't pay my bills because I was too generous.

I wasn't going to get too much into it, but when I read your reply I didn't want you to feel you were alone on here with it.

I don't care if people don't agree with me on here about this. In fact, I know many won't and I expect it. That's ok. I respect others views. I just get sick of people using the same rhetoric that doesn't even apply(it was only the law and we are not under that!) as a way to try to make the rest of us look foolish.

[bigdaddybus]

Thank you Good Steward. My thoughts exactly. You are much much better than I at explaining things eloquently. I just make a mess. lol.

But my feelings are the same. I don't tithe because I feel like I have to or else I will be cursed. I tithe because I think it is pleasing to God, and I've always been blessed by doing it. Same as you I've never gone hungry, or couldn't pay my bills because I was too generous.

I agree! I have always been taught to give with a grateful heart or don't give at all. Being raised by generous givers with an ungrateful heart this concept was a big struggle for me in my young adulthood. My mother would say things like "Hold onto your checkbook, they want a new building" Then give 5% above their tithe to a building fund. I just found it so confusing as a youth why my parents consistently complained about giving, but yet they always seemed to keep giving.

As I have matured in my faith, I have gotten to the point where I also tithe because its pleasing to God, its what I believe I have been commanded to do, and I have been blessed tremendously in my life.

[Eagle]

I wasn't going to get too much into it, but when I read your reply I didn't want you to feel you were alone on here with it.

I don't care if people don't agree with me on here about this. In fact, I know many won't and I expect it. That's ok. I respect others views. I just get sick of people using the same rhetoric that doesn't even apply(it was only the law and we are not under that!) as a way to try to make the rest of us look foolish.

For clarification I wasn't trying to make anyone look foolish. Just trying to understand others perspectives and think through this. Sometimes I come across too strong. If that was the case I do apologize.

It just bugs me that some people (Dave Ramsey, pastors, etc.) teach others that even though they can't pay bills they should give to their local church 100% of the time.

[Eagle]

Correct, but remember the OT was given to us for learning. There is a reason God didn’t want everything listed. Also, just because they understood a concept didn’t’ mean they did it right. Jesus only gives allowances for a single spouse, but we see Abraham having more than one. That doesn’t make Marriage wrong. There is lot that people did wrong in the OT that Jesus had to fix. The only lesson I see and use in this reference, as far as tithing goes, is that tithing was a known concept.

As for the rest of your comments. What you reference is true, but again we use much of the OT to learn the mind of God through his comments and requests. What does God want? He was addressing some specific things to the nation of Israel, his people, however, he never told them before not paying was robbing. Malichi is the first place I’ve known for that statement to be. To me that indicates it wasn’t just in the law that it would be robbing God. In other words it isn't a Moasic law fact of robbing GOd, it applies to not paying God outside the law as well.

I am curious if you believe that God curses those who trust in Jesus. If God blesses those who tithe God must also curse those that do not is that correct?

[GoodSteward]

For clarification I wasn't trying to make anyone look foolish. Just trying to understand others perspectives and think through this. Sometimes I come across too strong. If that was the case I do apologize.

It just bugs me that some people (Dave Ramsey, pastors, etc.) teach others that even though they can't pay bills they should give to their local church 100% of the time.

I didn't mean you directly in that. I know you were being polite and I didn't think you were coming off harsh. That comment was meant towards a few others that have not been polite to me when I first joined the site and this subject had come up(as well as to some others I've watched get chewed up over it). They really pulled some punches using old testament and it wears on me.

I am sorry it bugs you about that, but I am one that will encourage (don't beat over their head) to keep paying tithes at least, no matter what. I have never seen someone that pays tithes suffer from paying tithes. I have seen people suffer because they were stupid with money after paying tithes, but not directly because of tithes. No matter how you look at it when someone is in financial trouble you always peel away the fluff and at least provide for the basics. Food, shelter, transportation, etc. In that basic's list falls tithes in my view based on what I see in the bible. God will always supercede man in my eyes.

I mean, if you really don't want to give back to the lord that is your business, but I don't understand how a Christian can feel that way unless they are thinking with the world's mindset.

[GoodSteward]

I am curious if you believe that God curses those who trust in Jesus. If God blesses those who tithe God must also curse those that do not is that correct?

I don't understand the logic of the first sentence, sorry.

As for the question, according to the bible, yes. However, it isn't that cut and dry. That is directed at people who know to tithe and do not. I've seen many people, even those on here, that do not tithe and seem to do quite well regardless. The bible tells us not to look at the world around us and compare what we have. Because we are so materialistic we think blessings are always materials or money. If that were the case, then Jesus wouldn't have said it was hard for a rich man to get into heaven (riddle me that prosperity preachers?)

The part that I actually stick to more in that reference is that God will rebuke the devourer. Can't ever get ahead because there is something always coming up taking your money? Yeah, there's a protection for that. Tithe.

People often confuse God's mercy for God's approval, and Money is a big one for that. However, you can only do stupid for so long before God will let you fall flat. I get sick of prosperity preaching and people who live for more stuff. We would all retire much sooner if we followed the bible very closely on money, even with paying tithes. We would find ourselves a lot more satisfied with much less stuff. Just saying. You won't see me get this way on most of this site, but while we are on the subject of biblical money...why not.