Ethics of Giving to Charity while in Debt?

[Eagle]

If you feel that tithing is important, make sure you're giving 23.3 percent as commanded in the Torah.

As I understand it only those who owned land in ancient Israel (the promised land itself) would have tithed. The tithe applied to crops and animals produced in the promised land, not to all income in any time and place.

The tithe was an offering of one's agricultural income to the Lord as an expression of thanks and dedication. In the Old Testament agricultural economy, tithes were paid not in cash, gold, silver, or goods but in crops or livestock. It was an agricultural economy so the fruits of the promised land were to be tithed - interestingly enough this didn't include any other forms of income.

Although today we commonly think of the tithe as "10 percent" you are correct apparently there are three tithes in the Old Testament - two every year and a third every third year. (See Leviticus 27:30-33; Numbers 18:21-32; Deuteronomy 12:6; 14:22-29; 26:12) This would lead to an average of 23.3 percent of one's annual produce from the land.

[GoodSteward]

I appreciate the civilness of this thread with this subject.

Just for reference tithing was a concept before the law. Abraham tithed all he had gained from recusing Lott to the priest Melchizedek. People get tripped up over this subject because they think it was a law only concept. It was just defined in the law like everything else. Offerings as well. Cain killed Able because his offering was rejected and Cain got jealous.

[Eagle]

Interesting perspective and explanation. I'm a Christian yet don't believe you have to tithe as it was a command to Israel and nowhere in the Bible was tithing transferred to Christians. Jesus never commanded a tithe to His followers. No apostle or NT writer every commanded any of the churches or followers of Jesus to tithe.

I don't see though how people justify not paying bills and giving to charity. Seems like a bad testimony to me?

That simply isn't true, but if you would like to discuss this more please PM me. It is a bad testimony, I agree.
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You guys are all bringing up a bigger issue at hand. The problem I see isn't whether or not you should pay tithes if you can't pay bills, the problem is why can't you pay your bills? The bible is against bad money management, and most of the people I know who pay tithes completely miss that. As much as I personally support tithing(long before I was a minister too, mind you) I get irritated at people who think as long as they pay their tithes they are free to blow the rest or be financially damaging and God will make it up. You see there is a promise behind paying tithes that God will bless in return, as well as protect what you have. However, people completely ignore other biblical principals like they are not even there such as Pro_21:20 "There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up." The bible calls you a fool if you spend everything you make and don't save up.

Don't blame {religion} or tithing for any of this money mess, it all comes down to how peoplehandle money.

GoodSteward for clarification what is not true? Was tithing not a command given to Israel? Where in the Bible did Jesus command His followers to tithe? Where did the apostles or NT writers command local churches to tithe?

In Acts 15 is tithing one of the commands James gives to Gentiles? Doesn't seem to be the case.

Seems the idea was to give generously with no limitation as to what that amount or percentage was to be.

I do agree that the issue (with Christians) is typically not as much about how much to give but more importantly why one cannot give. It all boils down to poor stewardship. This is often due to spending more than you make and buying toys you don't need. I do agree that the Bible is against bad money management. It is interesting when people (Christians) think 10% belongs to God and 90% belongs to them.

I'm also glad we agree that not paying bills and paying tithes or give to charity is a bad testimony.

I guess we could take it to PM. However, I think it's a relevant topic to the discussion at hand and the OP.

[Eagle]

So basically you don't count donating money to the church as charitable giving. Is that accurate?

I'm curious if those who tithe typically claim that money on their taxes as a charitable donation to get the tax deduction.

I'd say most people do claim a tax deductions on their charitable donations to their local church.

[rennigade]

This is all getting really confusing...now are we going by the old testament or the new? I know most like to preach about the new testament. You know...the book written by Constantine and a bunch of bishops. Constantine wasnt even a christian till he was on his death bed...yet this person help write the new testament. WUT!!???

[klarose]

ARG. I wrote up a big post and the power blinked. So here is the shorter version.

I agree with Good Steward.

Tithing is NOT the same as giving to (insert charity here)

Some Christian's believe (including me) that all money belongs to God, and you only get money that he chooses to bless you with. He commands you give Him back 10% as a sort of good faith act, and to help fund the efforts that bring people to Him. Yes technically your money is being given to a church, but the church is supposed to be the hands the feet of Jesus and how He operates in the world.

Churches are not meant to make a profit, they are supposed to be there to help those in need and lead people to Christ. If the church you are tithing to isn't doing that, the problem isn't the tithe, it's where you are tithing.

I am a faithful tither because I don't see the money as mine at all. As soon as I get a check 10% comes out. No ifs ands or buts, and to me I treat it as if that money doesn't exist. If God can't trust me to be faithful with the 90% he gives me now, why should he give me anymore?

God teaches us to be good money managers. If you worked yourself into a bunch of debt that isn't His fault. It's yours. Just like it is not the car dealerships fault if you decide to purchase a $50k truck and then can't pay. They still want their money.

Also, I think the tithe will be removed whether willingly or not. Oh you decide not to tithe this month... oops your fridge broke.

Interestingly enough I've always tithed, even when months were short. And somehow the money has always been there that I needed, even when things don't add up on paper. You are trusting God to provide, in His power, not yours.

As Good Steward said, tithing is a command and can be seen a "debt" that you owe (although it shouldn't be seen as that as it is given out of your free will). Offerings or charity is anything given after that, and is not required. But is to bless others when you have been blessed.

[klarose]

I'd say most people do claim a tax deductions on their charitable donations to their local church.

I do claim my tithes. That has nothing to do with my religious beliefs.

Because why the heck not? Why would I want to pay anymore taxes to a poorly financially managed government then I have to?

[Eagle]

I appreciate the civilness of this thread with this subject.

Just for reference tithing was a concept before the law. Abraham tithed all he had gained from recusing Lott to the priest Melchizedek. People get tripped up over this subject because they think it was a law only concept. It was just defined in the law like everything else. Offerings as well. Cain killed Able because his offering was rejected and Cain got jealous.

It's true that a tithe (10%) was given by the Israel's patriarchs Abraham (Genesis 14:17-20) and Jacob (Genesis 28:20-22).

It is interesting though regarding Abraham that:

1. Abraham only tithed (gave 10%) off of what he gained (plundered) from his enemies. Not on his own crops or livestock.

2. Abraham was 80 years old when he gave this free will offering of 10% and never gave a tithe ever again.

3. So really this was more of a one-time free will offering that just happened to be 10%. God did not request this 10% or tithe.

4. Abraham wasn't given any promise of blessing (or curse) for his free will offering of 10% to Melchizedek.

Regarding Jacob:

5. Jacob made a vow to God to give 10% (a tithe) for safe passage, food, and clothing.

6. Jacob was bartering with God. Jacob said "If God will be with me... then I..." So this was a conditional agreement Jacob made with God. Jacob was trying to earn God's favor and blessing.

7. Jacob never tithed before or after this occurrence.

[klarose]

Here is a good post.

https://billygraham.org/answer/does-a-christian-have-to-tithe/

I believe people can tithe or not tithe however they see fit. But as for me, I will always tithe. That is my personal conviction.

[GoodSteward]

I guess their lives started and stopped with those stories then ? It isnt a biography of every part of their life. Just parts that are relevant. We don't know if he gave anymore but it would be silly to think he only did it once if he knew to do it at all. It's a guess either way but not a valid point. I don't use it to teach you should still tithes. It's just to point out tithing isn't law only.

[GoodSteward]

I'm on the road and I'm not going too deep over a phone. I'll try to respond better later today.

[Jluke]

I am a faithful tither because I don't see the money as mine at all. As soon as I get a check 10% comes out. No ifs ands or buts, and to me I treat it as if that money doesn't exist. If God can't trust me to be faithful with the 90% he gives me now, why should he give me anymore?

If god really gave us our paychecks, then why don't we all earn the same?

If the government takes more than 10%, are they god-like too?

To each their own, I understand the need for people to do this, but I'm not wired that way.

[klarose]

If god really gave us our paychecks, then why don't we all earn the same?

If the government takes more than 10%, are they god-like too?

To each their own, I understand the need for people to do this, but I'm not wired that way.

I understand some people don't believe in God or tithing, but I don't judge or ask nonsense questions to poke fun at their beliefs. I'm not wired that way.



Back to the main question. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and personal conviction. I don't think you can say it's ethical or unethical for you to believe what you believe when it comes to tithing or charity. It's far too deep of a viewpoint to put a label on it.

[disneysteve]

Back to the main question. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and personal conviction. I don't think you can say it's ethical or unethical for you to believe what you believe when it comes to tithing. It's far too deep of a viewpoint to put a label on it.

So getting back to the original question (which doesn't specifically ask about tithing), do you think it's okay to donate to charity if you are not paying your bills?

[klarose]

So getting back to the original question (which doesn't specifically ask about tithing), do you think it's okay to donate to charity if you are not paying your bills?

I think people can do whatever the heck they want with their money. I have enough to do managing my own. lol.

But no, if it does not relate directly to their religious beliefs, I think it would be pretty foolish to donate to charity while not paying your bills.

That said a lot of people do it. It's really no different than a poor person paying for lunch for someone even though they could probably use that money themselves. My sister constantly skips out on utility bills, but will buy her kids and friends $1,000s worth of gifts for Christmas. I think that is pretty silly too.

It's not for me to be the judge if it is unethical or not though. I certainly don't condone not paying your bills. But look how many people don't pay their bills because they wasted their money on addictions or toys. I don't think giving to charity is any worse than that... not sure it's any better either.