How Much Money Can You Make Online? Tell the Truth...

[disneysteve]

Thanks for the detailed response Gailete. I used to be much more in tune with what was going on back when I sold on a regular basis. I even sold on ebay full time for a brief period back in 2000. I, too, was doing a couple thousand $ in sales per month. I was also selling in person at toy and collectible shows, selling online through my own website, and for a number of years had a mail order catalog that I advertised both online and in a few print publications.

I joined ebay in May 1997 so I've seen all of the changes over time personally.

I'm not at all surprised that ebay is planning a different way to be involved in the payment process. They did that first by buying Paypal which did have some advantages as it really integrated the payment system with the auction system. Now that Paypal is independent again, it makes sense that ebay is looking for another way to keep the payment end of things in house.

I'll have to take a look at Ecrater and see what sort of things sell there. I had never heard of it before.

[Gailete]

I've been at ecrater since 2008 when I left ebay. For the first few years sales were tremendous. Then Google started making changes to its search algorythm and then a year later more changes. My sales have never recovered, but it does point out one of the biggest problems with selling on line and that is how many things are dependent on businesses outside of our control. Google decided that instead of showing all search items in shopping, they wanted a piece of the online sales pie, so now the only way to find anything in Google shopping is understand that the sellers have paid a fee to be shown so that many of the same items aren't getting the exposure that they once did. It is why Amazon products are never found in Google shopping. They apparently refuse to pay a fee to have their items featured there. However they do show up in Google organic.

Most folks unless they are in the 'know' about this, might think that what they see in Google shopping is all that is available. Also many more venues than ebay use PP, so changes with PP can affect those sites as well.

One of the reasons that I like ecrater is that they give us a platform to sell on with very minimal fees and then expect you to run your business. I do a lot of promoting my store as much as possible and for the most part, I get good results. Other sellers there, refuse to use any kind of social media to advertise their products on. To sell something online requires a way to make sure someone knows about what you are selling and the easiest and cheapest way to do so is to use social media.

[disneysteve]

now the only way to find anything in Google shopping is understand that the sellers have paid a fee to be shown so that many of the same items aren't getting the exposure that they once did.

One of the reasons that I like ecrater is that they give us a platform to sell on with very minimal fees and then expect you to run your business. I do a lot of promoting my store as much as possible and for the most part, I get good results. Other sellers there, refuse to use any kind of social media to advertise their products on. To sell something online requires a way to make sure someone knows about what you are selling and the easiest and cheapest way to do so is to use social media.

The whole "pay for placement" system is definitely a problem. That's one thing I've always liked about ebay. All listings are treated equally.

As for ecrater, I checked it out briefly. It definitely doesn't seem like a worthwhile site for me. I searched for 10 items that I've either recently sold on ebay or have prepped to sell and not a single one is on there. I don't know what sorts of things are typically sold there but it doesn't seem to be the type of merchandise I deal with.

And the fact that you have to do your own promotion of your items there would be a big turn off for me. With ebay, I don't need to do a thing. I list it and sit back and wait for things to sell. Now if they go and change that, that will be a problem, but at least for now, selling on ebay is simple. It has it's problems but until something better comes along, it's really the best game in town.

[Gailete]

The whole "pay for placement" system is definitely a problem. That's one thing I've always liked about ebay. All listings are treated equally.

That is why so many ebay sellers are nervous now with this change in ebays search. They aren't going to be treated equally anymore, assuming that they have been for the last few years.

[disneysteve]

That is why so many ebay sellers are nervous now with this change in ebays search.

I wonder how that would actually work. With other sites, sponsored listings get top billing but you still see the others below that. What you said sounds like some listings wouldn't show up at all. Why would anyone list anything for sale if there would be no way for potential buyers to see it?

Hopefully whatever they do isn't quite as extreme as what you said.

[TexasHusker]

I've been at ecrater since 2008 when I left ebay. For the first few years sales were tremendous. Then Google started making changes to its search algorythm and then a year later more changes. My sales have never recovered, but it does point out one of the biggest problems with selling on line and that is how many things are dependent on businesses outside of our control. Google decided that instead of showing all search items in shopping, they wanted a piece of the online sales pie, so now the only way to find anything in Google shopping is understand that the sellers have paid a fee to be shown so that many of the same items aren't getting the exposure that they once did. It is why Amazon products are never found in Google shopping. They apparently refuse to pay a fee to have their items featured there. However they do show up in Google organic.

Most folks unless they are in the 'know' about this, might think that what they see in Google shopping is all that is available. Also many more venues than ebay use PP, so changes with PP can affect those sites as well.

One of the reasons that I like ecrater is that they give us a platform to sell on with very minimal fees and then expect you to run your business. I do a lot of promoting my store as much as possible and for the most part, I get good results. Other sellers there, refuse to use any kind of social media to advertise their products on. To sell something online requires a way to make sure someone knows about what you are selling and the easiest and cheapest way to do so is to use social media.

Your post is a good one, and underscores the reality that online selling success - or failure - can be dependent upon “rule makers” such as google and eBay that you have zero control over. These rule makers offer the “highway” to your product or service. And when they decide to change the highway, things can get ugly overnight.

I own and manage a number of vacation rentals, and the rule maker in our industry is Homeaway. No one else even comes close - they’ve bought out most competitors.

Now that they have market dominance, their listing fees for homeowners have doubled, they charge guests a 7% service fee, all parties MUST now use their platform for the entire transaction, etc. Everyone now waits for the next shoe to drop.

When you are in business, the cheese is moving every day.

[disneysteve]

Your post is a good one, and underscores the reality that online selling success - or failure - can be dependent upon “rule makers” such as google and eBay that you have zero control over. These rule makers offer the “highway” to your product or service. And when they decide to change the highway, things can get ugly overnight.

I own and manage a number of vacation rentals, and the rule maker in our industry is Homeaway. No one else even comes close - they’ve bought out most competitors.

Now that they have market dominance, their listing fees for homeowners have doubled, they charge guests a 7% service fee, all parties MUST now use their platform for the entire transaction, etc. Everyone now waits for the next shoe to drop.

When you are in business, the cheese is moving every day.

This is so true. So much business moving online has been a mixed blessing, for sure. You get far broader and easier exposure but there are drawbacks to that too.

When I first started my collectibles business (1986) the internet wasn't a thing yet. I had a mail order list that grew into a 40+ page catalog. I advertised it with both free and paid ads in various print publications. Business was slow but steady. Then I started selling in person at toy and collectible shows from New York to Virginia.

Then in 1994, I got online and started advertising my catalog in various newsgroups. At some point I also built my own website.

Then in 1997 I joined ebay and my business skyrocketed. My sales increased 10-fold and became international almost overnight. It was the best thing ever. And my overhead for ebay sales was way lower than for my in-person sales.

You can figure out what happened next. Over the next few years, the in-person shows gradually died out. Today, there are very few that still exist and they're pretty sad affairs. We stopped doing them a long time ago. Virtually everything is online now. But ebay fees have gone up, you have to use Paypal and their fees have gone up, postage has gone up, ebay policies have changed to greatly favor the buyer, etc. Ebay is still the absolute best place to sell stuff, but it's not nearly as seller-friendly as it used to be. It doesn't need to be because it wiped out all of the competition.

[TexasHusker]

This is so true. So much business moving online has been a mixed blessing, for sure. You get far broader and easier exposure but there are drawbacks to that too.

When I first started my collectibles business (1986) the internet wasn't a thing yet. I had a mail order list that grew into a 40+ page catalog. I advertised it with both free and paid ads in various print publications. Business was slow but steady. Then I started selling in person at toy and collectible shows from New York to Virginia.

Then in 1994, I got online and started advertising my catalog in various newsgroups. At some point I also built my own website.

Then in 1997 I joined ebay and my business skyrocketed. My sales increased 10-fold and became international almost overnight. It was the best thing ever. And my overhead for ebay sales was way lower than for my in-person sales.

You can figure out what happened next. Over the next few years, the in-person shows gradually died out. Today, there are very few that still exist and they're pretty sad affairs. We stopped doing them a long time ago. Virtually everything is online now. But ebay fees have gone up, you have to use Paypal and their fees have gone up, postage has gone up, ebay policies have changed to greatly favor the buyer, etc. Ebay is still the absolute best place to sell stuff, but it's not nearly as seller-friendly as it used to be. It doesn't need to be because it wiped out all of the competition.

I think businesses have always had this sort of worry, even the brick-and-mortar ones. In the town that I live in, Route 66 cut a path through the north side of the city for decades. It looked like a little Las Vegas strip at night from what the old timers say - thousands of motel rooms, drive-in restaurants, entertainment, shops, and car lots.

In the late 1960s, Interstate 40 was being constructed, and the planners for that basically cut a swath right through the center of town for it, buying of untold $ millions of right-of-way, tearing down houses, and constructing I-40. All was well on Route 66 while I-40 was being constructed - business was going "as usual" several miles away all while the bulldozers were moving dirt for the new highway. Things suddenly changed the day I-40 opened: On that day, it was apparently like a light switch, and Route 66 through the city was a ghost town. So were all of the businesses that were there.

Today, you can still see remnants of those old businesses. They are mostly condemned buildings now, or prostitute houses, or crack houses/meth labs/strip clubs.

In the world of business, things are constantly changing. It is impossible to plan for and account for every conceivable change, but staying on your toes certainly helps.

[disneysteve]

I think businesses have always had this sort of worry, even the brick-and-mortar ones. In the town that I live in, Route 66 cut a path through the north side of the city for decades. It looked like a little Las Vegas strip at night from what the old timers say - thousands of motel rooms, drive-in restaurants, entertainment, shops, and car lots.

Things suddenly changed the day I-40 opened: On that day, it was apparently like a light switch, and Route 66 through the city was a ghost town. So were all of the businesses that were there.

In the world of business, things are constantly changing. It is impossible to plan for and account for every conceivable change, but staying on your toes certainly helps.

You've just summarized the plot of Disney-Pixar CARS movie.

The only constant is change. You're certainly right about that. Us "old-timers" who remember how things were way back before the internet can certainly attest to that.

[TexasHusker]

You've just summarized the plot of Disney-Pixar CARS movie.

The only constant is change. You're certainly right about that. Us "old-timers" who remember how things were way back before the internet can certainly attest to that.

Interesting! I've never seen that movie.

[disneysteve]

Interesting! I've never seen that movie.

Plot summary from IMDB:
Lightning McQueen is a young, hotshot rookie race car in the last race of the season. At the end of the race, he finds out he is tied with Chick Hicks and The King. On the way to the tie-breaker race in Los Angeles, California, some hot punk cars get him lost in a little town called Radiator Springs on the old Route 66 road, which has been long forgotten many years ago.

[Gailete]

In Feb. 2010 I sold $2300 worth of goods through ecrater - the place no one has heard of. Then Google flicked a few switches, and I actively promote my ecrater store, but even so this past March I sold ~$70 worth of goods. One of the reasons that several years ago I had to start sellingon Amazon again. this past fall I even tip toed into eBay and got practically zilch for my efforts. We depend heavily on what I make with the pattern business, so I will keep continuing to try new things and list much more inventory, etc.

For sure when selling on the internet things are in a constant flux. At one point when sales had been terrific and Google flicked the first switch, I remeber some ecrater sellers saying that hadn't done any promoting before and saw no reason to start. Not sure if they are even around anymore. Then there are the ones that absolutely refuse to us social media of any kind but want ideas on how to promote their goods. I suspect that one of the reasons that Steve did so well and why I was is because he sold in a niche and I still do. Many that are floundering with no sales, are selling out of a catalog (drop shipping), or are selling anything that they can find so they have a hodge podge of inventory, which makes it very hard to promote to one type of buyer. Selling in a niche provides all sorts of benefits to the seller and it is much easier for the buyer to find them. Which would someone looking for a sewing pattern go to, a seller that has 50 patterns up for sale, or me with close to 8000 patterns up for sale?

Interesting mention of Route 66. When I was young I lived in S. Cal, and the last place we lived we had a 'main' road up maybe 1/2 to a mile away. I never knew the name of the road. A few months ago, Hubby brought up my old stomping grounds on Google maps. Frankly couldn't believe the construction that had gone on in the last almost 50 years. But that road that was so close to my house that I had never known the name of? Old Route 66! It has been renamed at this point. I didn't know anything about Route 66 until I got older, but time has a way of changing things, that is for sure! Whether the town you grew up in or the internet, there will always be change.

[disneysteve]

I suspect that one of the reasons that Steve did so well and why I was is because he sold in a niche and I still do. Many that are floundering with no sales, are selling out of a catalog (drop shipping)

I looked into drop shipping in the past and I just couldn't see any possible way it would be profitable. When I did searches, there were hundreds of people selling the identical products and all for the same price. Where's the money in that?

At one point, I did connect with a surplus distributor who was selling all manner of items, anything from jewelry to hardware, but it was all limited supply, unlike the drop shipping places. They might have a few boxes of something, or a pallet-full, or a truck-full, but that was it. The problem for me was that sometimes they were selling in bulk quantities that were outside of my ability to resell. It was more aimed at someone with a store. But there were times when they sold small lots, like a dozen necklaces, and I bought those deals. The prices were usually low enough that I only had to resell a few to break even so it was realistic for me to profit on the order.

[Gailete]

@DisneySteve. You have a huge head start advantage for your selling on line that many folks do not have. You are intelligent, educated, and have a lot of common sense and know how to pinch pennies. I've run into so many newbie sellers that can't write a coherent sentence (and not because they have dyslexia or any other problem they just didn't care and didn't pay attention in school). They can't write a description of their items that they want to sell. They can't take decent photos. They are told to use free shipping and so they do, but they forget that to do so you must price your goods to cover the cost of the shipping.

Although we did run into one guy that kept telling all of us to use free shipping, and his prices just didn't reflect how he was accommodating the free shipping. Turns out his dad worked at the PO and he would just drop off the pile of goods that he sold and dear old dad would ship them. Whether or not he put shipping on them or snuck them into the mail flow this guy had no ideas. So, he really did get free shipping and I hope dad was paying for the postage himself as I have never heard that PO employees get free shipping.

Then there are the folks that say they have been selling for years and so don't need any advice even though their listings are abysmal. We had one seller that was trying to sell her photographs and so named the title of each photo, rose 1, rose 2, rose 3, out of the possible 100 characters she was allowed for the title, she used 6 characters and just didn't understand when we tried to explain to her. Many will use their title as their description of items and that is all. Will try to sell clothing with no sizes! You look at their listings and can never figure out what they are selling.

I'm not saying people can't learn the skills that they need, but those that refuse to, such as the ones that use all caps when typing, or those that use all small letters and no punctuation other than dashes between some of the phrases. If you call them on it, they will say’ that is how I do things’. They aren't interested in looking professional whatsoever. After a while you catch on to those that want help and those that get off saying they have an on-line store, even if they never sell anything! Or the lady that claimed that she specialized in selling shoes and then in the next sentence said she hadn't sold any in 18 months, what should she do! Well number one stop thinking you specialize in shoes and just admit that you like shoe shopping - but when all your shoe purchases are the rock bottom discounted prices, think that maybe no one LIKED those shoes which is why they remained unsold.

Those that want to make money on line can do it and do it in many ways, but they must be willing to learn. They need to learn how to be professional in their approach to things. They need to listen to advice and not expect riches to flow into their coffers overnight. It doesn’t have to be via selling, but they do have to do whatever makes them enough money without a huge waste of time. I would have to be desperate to spend an hour taking a survey that earns me 15 cents. I could take that hour and put it into something that will bring in more return than that.

[disneysteve]

@DisneySteve. You have a huge head start advantage for your selling on line that many folks do not have. You are intelligent, educated, and have a lot of common sense and know how to pinch pennies.

Thank you for that.

Those that want to make money on line can do it and do it in many ways, but they must be willing to learn. They need to learn how to be professional in their approach to things. They need to listen to advice and not expect riches to flow into their coffers overnight. It doesn’t have to be via selling, but they do have to do whatever makes them enough money without a huge waste of time.

This is pretty much true of anything, online or offline. You need to be open to learning. You need to be willing to open to advice from others who are succeeding in your desired field.