Prenup Advice!

[Christian321]

Is everything joint after marriage?

What you accumulate during the marriage of course will be split right down the middle should the marriage end in divorce (assuming the two parties cannot come to a mutual aggreement). I had two consults with two seperate lawyers and they both told me the same thing: If one party is bringing significantly more assets into the marriage, then a pre-nup is a smart idea to protect oneself.

I am being told that it is best to assume yes, everything is joint after marriage. So, if you want to protect the assets you bring into a marriage, you should have legal documentation signed by both parties that state what each of you owned BEFORE marriage.

[Like2Plan]

Would you be able to accomplish your stated goals by putting your current assets into a trust? I don't know which would cost more--prenup or trust, but maybe you could consult with a lawyer and ask if a trust would work for what you want to do and how expensive it would be to draw it up compared to a prenup.

[Christian321]

Would you be able to accomplish your stated goals by putting your current assets into a trust? I don't know which would cost more--prenup or trust, but maybe you could consult with a lawyer and ask if a trust would work for what you want to do and how expensive it would be to draw it up compared to a prenup.

No sure, good point though. I am open to whatever works best

[LivingAlmostLarge]

So do you only withhold equivalent assets to your prospective partner? I mean in the sense that if you want to buy a house each of you put down $30k = $60k pre marriage and then after marriage you can save the bulk for a house down payment? Or a new car?

Does everything until the wedding be kept separate and so her $30k is left alone as well and you start saving from $0?

[Redraidernurse]

Come back and update us on how the conversation goes with your girlfriend.

[Christian321]

So do you only withhold equivalent assets to your prospective partner? I mean in the sense that if you want to buy a house each of you put down $30k = $60k pre marriage and then after marriage you can save the bulk for a house down payment? Or a new car?

Does everything until the wedding be kept separate and so her $30k is left alone as well and you start saving from $0?

I don't understand your first paragraph. If we each put down $30,000 to buy a house, should we divorce and forced to sell the home, assuming we could, we would each get back our $30,000 or one of us could buy the other hous (i.e - if she wants the house, she could pay me my half and I would remove my name from the deed.

Everything before the marriage should remain separate. Everything earned together after marriage will go in joint accounts and evenly distributed should a divorce happen.

To be clear, I DO not want to keep all money separate, just the money I enter the marriage with.

[Gailete]

My opinion is you already have a problem in that you have apparently been living with this gal for 2 years already I believe you said. You aren't asking for approval for that and that isn't the issue, but at this point you should already know and understand how she handles money. How are you two handling expenses now? If you are living on 20% of your income, what is her percentage of income that she is having to contribute and live off of in your joint enterprise at this point? Her amount of savings is terrific for her age! I can't imagine being able to live on 20% of our income. You either have a very good salary or you are an exteme frugal Frank and may be too much of a tighwad considering your income (at least in her way of looking at it). Personally as a woman I would be insulted and it would be a completely immediate deal breaker if my finance or soon to be finance expected and insisted on a pre-nup prior to marriage.

Marriage is and should be a trusting relationship. This is how much you trust this young lady, who has already proved to be a saver, in your protection of what you want to and forever want to consider as yours even after the marriage? I think that YOUR $450K is going to be a huge stresser in the marriage. It will mean that in the event of an emergency that is costly, she will not feel that she has a right to ask you for financial help -- thinking major health issues here -- especially after her funds are eaten up. When will this money be considered OUR money in the marriage? When she is off work having a baby or is fired or laid off and has no income coming in will you be sure she still has spending money and will cover her share of expenses or is she supposed to be reaching into her own savings during this point of no income? I don't think these things are talked about in a prenup. It just sounds to me that under any and all cases you want this to be YOUR money period. You sound very generous when saying of course what you BOTH earn afterwards will be ours, but you will always have this large amount to hold over her. Like I said what happens if she can no longer work for whatever reason, how are the finances to be taken care of?

Well this is a woman's view of a prenup. It is a no go. I would love to be a fly on the wall when you ask her about this, though. This is from someone who has lived a long time and has seen a lot of water go under the dridge and seen that unexpected things happen.

Edited to add: Please note my observations are coming from a woman who never took a red cent from my ex-husband, yet he wouldn't even allow me to take his check to the bank to cash it and had his mother do it for him. He verbally told me that he didn't think I would bring all HIS money home. Trust is trust whether you have 10 cents or 10 million. Does your friend even know about this large chunk of money? If not then there are much bigger issues than a prenup, like why don't you trust her enough to tell her? If she does know, what has been her attitude about it?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I guess so you each bring $30k to the table, but do you start saving again the Joint EF? Joint House Down Payment? Wedding? Honeymoon? Car? What do you do with the $60k? Or does she keep that separate too, and you start completely from scratch $0 saved on the day of the marriage?

As a question of pure curiosity how much is 20% of your income?

[DebtFree&Broke]

Everything before the marriage should remain separate. Everything earned together after marriage will go in joint accounts and evenly distributed should a divorce happen.

To be clear, I DO not want to keep all money separate, just the money I enter the marriage with.

Marriage is and should be a trusting relationship. This is how much you trust this young lady, who has already proved to be a saver, in your protection of what you want to and forever want to consider as yours even after the marriage? I think that YOUR $450K is going to be a huge stresser in the marriage. It will mean that in the event of an emergency that is costly, she will not feel that she has a right to ask you for financial help -- thinking major health issues here -- especially after her funds are eaten up. When will this money be considered OUR money in the marriage? When she is off work having a baby or is fired or laid off and has no income coming in will you be sure she still has spending money and will cover her share of expenses or is she supposed to be reaching into her own savings during this point of no income? I don't think these things are talked about in a prenup. It just sounds to me that under any and all cases you want this to be YOUR money period. You sound very generous when saying of course what you BOTH earn afterwards will be ours, but you will always have this large amount to hold over her.

I agree with Gailete. Having a pre-nup isn't the problem. Telling her that this money is yours and you don't trust her with your $450K is the problem. By not trusting her enough to combine your finances you are setting yourself up for a divorce. You will always have that drift in your relationship, because you are telling her that you love your money more than her. Get the pre-nup, then put it away and never talk about it again for as long as you are married. Combine all of your finances and your marriage will be stronger.

[sandrark]

My DH and I have been together since we were teenagers. Bought a house together. Got married after 16 years together, and 5 years of home ownership.

We have always split things 50/50. We have his, mine, and our accounts.

We've always been pretty pleased with the arrangement - I'm a saver, and I've invested significant amounts of my earning into retirement. He has not.

As we are now entering our prime earning years, I'm wanting to re-think things. He does not.

He received a decent-sized inheritance 3 years ago; I insisted he keep it separate. He has dipped into it to offset cash flow issues with our business (he runs it, and takes a modest salary). The inheritance allowed us to "move up" in our house last year, which made us both very happy (we didn't use it, other than for cash flow and savings purposes with the mortgage company).

Now, I see that there are some big issues that are harder to resolve, as we begin to look our 50's in the eye.

- A significant retirement and pension balance. It's 90% my savings.

- A business that we want to sell. It's worth mid-six figures. We own it 50/50, but will likely have to reinvest any sale price in a new business for DH, so he has an ongoing income. There will be tax issues.

- DH has dribbled away a fair portion of his inheritance. My "fairness" meant that he has not used it to catch up with retirement.

- Future inheritances - if DH squanders his inheritance from his parents, we will rely entirely on my pension and savings for retirement. And that's beginning to annoy me.

If you do the prenup, keep in mind that some of these issues will only get bigger for you. How will you handle the accounting when you want to buy a house? A business? If she wants to be a SAHM? Retiring at 45 sounds great for you, but if she doesn't have sufficient SS credits and savings, will you "make" her continue to earn an income?

I really think you need to go through a financial planning process as a team before you ever get married, so you can arrive at a plan TOGETHER. DH is not religious at all, so Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University is of no interest to him. But it might be something that starts a deeper conversation for the two of you.

For me, it wouldn't matter if you put the $450K aside in your name alone. But the idea that YOUR ideas of OUR future are the only ones that get air time would be a deal breaker for me. What are HER dreams? With her smaller income, can she keep up, or will you be leaving her behind? How can you approach your future as a team?

Sandi

[Christian321]

I guess so you each bring $30k to the table, but do you start saving again the Joint EF? Joint House Down Payment? Wedding? Honeymoon? Car? What do you do with the $60k? Or does she keep that separate too, and you start completely from scratch $0 saved on the day of the marriage?

As a question of pure curiosity how much is 20% of your income?

Joint House down payment: yes
wedding: her parents/my parents and I will pay.
Honeymoon: I will pay
Car: We are good with cars. If little timmy comes along and we need a bigger one, we can sell one and buy her a different car. I would pay for this.
Saving accounts: if she works, we both contribute (obviously I will be contributing more).

I think most everyone here is missing the point. My intention here is not to be a cheap a$$HOLE when I am married. Believe me, I know I bring home significantly more than my gf and therefore have no issues shelling out most or all of the expenses when we are married. I make much more and am totally ok with paying more. In fact, I would prefer she be a stay at home mom one day, but that will be uo to her.

What I am not ok with is (in the event of a divorce) lossing the savings I came into my marriage with. I think I am being reasonable.

I will not get into how much I make. I will say I am a simple person who like simple things. My gf is the same way. I save my money because I have goals that I want to meet. I have little use for IPOD/IPADS/iphones w/ $100+ data plans, or any of the latest gadgets out there. Nor do I buy more house than I need or new cars every 5 years. I find that too many people are massive consumers of worthless items that keep them poor and working forever. I'll say this: I do not make a million dollar income but I work hard, am sensible, and don't waste money.

To end this thread, I'll say that I will delay my proposal and discuss finances with my gf a while longer before deciding if our spending habits clash. I've lived with her two years now, so far we have not had a single issue.


Thanks to everyone who has commented. I appreciate the advice.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Nope, I asked because of curiosity how does a prenup work after marriage? Do you just say you each keep it separate then joint afterwards? Do you agree to bring in the same amount? I find it fascinating.

20% could be $50k or $250k annual income and that is a lot. It could be $20k and a $100k income. Now if the income is $50k and 20% is $10k/year to live off of, that's the most impressive. But also I'd want to know how it's done.

You are making the assumption most people here have smartphones, cars every 5 years, and massive consumption. It's entirely possible many are families living on less than your 20% but you think 20% is good because it's 20% of a large income rather than actual number. Like I said $10k/year = 20% is very impressive to me. Higher than that, well it's good but not that great considering I assume stuff is split with GF so the actual living expenses are double what you spend.

Let's be honest here, a family of 4 on $50k/year is living relatively frugally, especially when you consider where they live. I know a family of 3 where I live HCOLA on $36k/year. It's tight.

[NuggetBrain]

Shouldn't you know already if your spending habits clash after two years together? You might not be obsessed with things or shopping or cars but to be honest you sound a little obsessed with this idea of MY MONEY. And a little obsessed with money, period, as in squirrling away as much of it as possible regardless of the sense of it.

[Christian321]

Shouldn't you know already if your spending habits clash after two years together? You might not be obsessed with things or shopping or cars but to be honest you sound a little obsessed with this idea of MY MONEY. And a little obsessed with money, period, as in squirrling away as much of it as possible regardless of the sense of it.

"...squirrling away as much as possible regardless of the sense of it".....

really? Did you read my post? I save not becasue I have an uncontrolable need to do so, but because I have goals in life that I would like to achieve. Like I said in a previous post, I'd like to retire early one day. I feel life is too short to be working into my 60's and
70's.

You can call it "squirrling" if you want to, but I'll call it saving for my future aspirations and goals.

[Gailete]

>>I'll call it saving for my future aspirations and goals<<

I think that is where some of us are a little puzzled. You seem to want this money to be yours alone in the case of divorce, but how will this money be used in the event you do retire early? Will she also get to retire early and you support both of you and any munchkins you may have or is she going to have to work to support herself until she can retire? When you get around to spending your savings do you plan on including her in the spending? I've been married to a guy for 10 years and our money is mixed and I handle it and as much as possible I'm saving for retirement especially for him as in essence I'm basically retired since I'm disabled. I would really hate to think that he had a good chunk of money squirreled away but it wasn't for us, that it was for him alone.

Please understand that we aren't trying to discourage you from saving or being disrespectful of your goals, but some of us are older (much) and have seen how life works and it isn't always easy or doesn't always go how you would hope. When we got married my hubby and I figured between what he earned in his own business and what I made as a nurse we should have a comfortable lifestyle for our needs. Three weeks after the wedding, I came down sick and never could return to work again, other than some selling on line that I do. Let's just say that the illness made a big difference to our finances and will continue to until I die. Life happens when you don't expect it and no amount of planning can take in every circumstance.