How do I talk to my wife?

[snshijuptr]

If your finances are truly separate then you shouldn't be forcing her to "admit" how much she spends. So what if she makes more than you and spends more than you? If you don't share finances then it's none of your business. If you want to share finances then that is another matter. If you want to set a future savings goal then you should discuss that with her and she will find the money for it.

I agree that there is more here than money.

[disneysteve]

If your finances are truly separate then you shouldn't be forcing her to "admit" how much she spends. So what if she makes more than you and spends more than you? If you don't share finances then it's none of your business.

This really bothers me and I'm trying to articulate why. I consider marriage to be a partnership. If I wanted to keep everything separate, I wouldn't have gotten married. To me, marriage is about joining my life with another, not just shacking up together. We aren't roommates sharing a house with one paying rent to the other. We are life partners going through life together, making decisions jointly that we feel are in our best interests going forward.

That does not mean that married couples need to totally merge their finances. I have no problem with a couple keeping certain assets in their own names. Especially after a divorce or after receiving an inheritance, it may be a very good idea to do so. No matter what, though, there still must be communication between spouses and a unified financial plan for the household. If there isn't, then what is the point of being together? How can you ever prosper as a couple and as a family if the husband and wife aren't working together?

Why does it matter if she is making more and spending more? Because if she has way more free cash flow, then with proper planning and management they could be better able to reach their financial goals, pay off debt, save more for retirement, buy a house, take nicer vacations, replace an aging car or whatever is important to them. I just can't comprehend the mindset that her money is hers and hers alone and he has no right to be involved in how the household income is managed.

[Phenomenal Woman]

ETA Sorry! Edited version below post. I am not sure how that happened.

[Phenomenal Woman]

Hmm... First I suggest you tell your wife that you love her and that you have been thinking about finances lately. I wouldn’t say anything that would make her defensive because it seems like this finance issue was not an important issue for you in the beginning of the marriage so she might be thinking why different now?

Open communication is the key here and that seems to be the bigger issue than finances right now. Can you talk about finances without being sneaky? Did you ask her before you decided to calculate the tax returns? Focus on the reason why you think both of your finances needs to be analyized and then approach her. I would focus on the best interest for you both rather than for individually and how both of you can benefit of proposed changes.

[RayMetz100]

I discussed with my counselor and decided to wait a month or two before talking to my wife about it. Personal finance is one of many things I'd like to improve, but not the most important right now. One reason I'm delaying it is because the subject causes a lot of anxiety and I'm already having an anxious week because of my bi-polar mania. That may be why I looked into our money in the first place. Instead I called my wife at work today to tell her I love her.

If I can hold off for two months, she'll see my new example of depositing my whole paycheck into a joint account, taking $180 per week for my own pocket money and paying the rest to our joint bills. I wasn't doing that before, so I think the change I already made is enough from my end for now. Progress not perfection.

Ray

[disneysteve]

Did you ask her before you decided to calculate the tax returns?

If they are married and filed jointly, why would he need to ask her before looking at the tax return? Her income isn't a secret.

I would focus on the best interest for you both rather than for individually and how both of you can benefit of proposed changes.

I agree. Before sitting down with her to discuss this, you need to know what your motivation is. Are you guys in debt? Are you having trouble making ends meet? Does the house need repairs that you've been putting off for financial reasons? Have you been talking about taking a special trip but thought you couldn't afford it? Do you have a plan for retirement?

Whatever it is, you need to sit down with her and explain that you don't feel like the two of you have been working together adequately to reach your joint goals in life.

OP, you said this:

I do want her to admit she spends $500 a month more than me if that's the case. I'd also like to save money eventually, and I can trim my own $840 down to save more, but I'd like her help saving eventually too.

But you didn't say why you want her to admit she spends $500/month more than you. You'd like to save more. I get that and certainly appreciate that desire. What I think you need to present to her is WHY. Why do you think you guys need to be saving more? What are the goals for that savings that aren't currently being met?

Do you know what percentage of your household income currently goes to savings? What percentage goes to retirement? How large is your emergency fund? How much is being set aside each month for your next car purchases, vacation fund, home repair fund, etc? If you have kids, how much is going into the college savings each month? If you can't answer all of these questions, you need to sit down with her and work through all of this to get the answers and make sure that you (both of you) are on the right track to meet all of your needs and goals going forward together as a couple.

[disneysteve]

One reason I'm delaying it is because the subject causes a lot of anxiety

That's exactly why you shouldn't delay. You clearly have some strong feelings about how she is managing money. Intentional or not, conscious or subconscious, that is creating a wedge in your relationship. The time to deal with something like that is now, not next week, not two months from now. By putting this off for two more months, you will let your feelings fester and add more drama to the situation, not less.

I'm curious how long you have been married. I'm guessing it is not very long. My wife and I are coming up on our 18th anniversary in 3 weeks so I think it is fair to say that we have a successful relationship. One thing that makes it successful is that when one of us has an issue or problem or complaint, we talk about it when it occurs, not days or weeks later.

It is great that you are cleaning up your own personal financial habits but managing the household finances requires both of you to be involved and working together. There is no need for you to wait to sit down and say, "Here's what I've started doing myself and here's what I'd like to see us work on together."

[RayMetz100]

But you didn't say why you want her to admit she spends $500/month more than you.

I honestly thought I spent more than her. We've been married 17 years and I've been terrible with my money. I spend it all within about a week of payday, then I borrow from "savings" accounts like the kids accounts or whatever I can find to make the next payday, then I repeated.

Last December/January I was home recovering from a Bi-Polar mania hospital visit and she taught me how to go to an all cash system. I pulled out around $400 cash on payday and lived on that for two weeks. That fixed my borrowing problem and then I recently changed that to $180 each Friday because I noticed I usually spend $100 or more on the weekend and less Monday - Thursday. Last week I got tired of catching her "borrowing" from our joint account before her paydays. she had the same bad habits as me before. so I told her if she just paid the $600 groceries, her $200 gas, and $200 in other family bills, it would be about the same as before and the "joint" account would become mine, which stopped her borrowing from it for personal expenses each pay period. That all went great until I calculated her paycheck minus those bills and noticed the difference. She's apparently been out spending me for years and I didn't even notice. I was a little jealous at first but it's my own fault for not paying attention and I don't think she was either. So my plan now is to let our new system work for a couple months and then talk to her when I'm not surprised.

Do you know what percentage of your household income currently goes to savings?

not much. She has about $600 slack in her budget. Sometimes she pays extra on credit cards(balance is 20k), sometimes saves it for car service/etc.

What percentage goes to retirement?

9%, 6% into 401k and 3% match. We also pay $320/month on a couple negative cash flow rentals. Luckily both are above water, worth around $50k net.

How large is your emergency fund?

$0 We live paycheck to paycheck.

How much is being set aside each month for your next car purchases, vacation fund, home repair fund, etc?

$0. Home needs paint. Cars are 7 and 13 years old, both paid for.

If you have kids, how much is going into the college savings each month?

$0 for college. $20/month for each of three kids. they all have about $3000 in mutual fund accounts from this. I'm hoping it will fund their IRAs someday or I'll just will it to them and hope I die before them. Not for car/college/house though.

[cicy33]

I honestly thought I spent more than her. We've been married 17 years and I've been terrible with my money. I spend it all within about a week of payday, then I borrow from "savings" accounts like the kids accounts or whatever I can find to make the next payday, then I repeated.

Last December/January I was home recovering from a Bi-Polar mania hospital visit and she taught me how to go to an all cash system. I pulled out around $400 cash on payday and lived on that for two weeks. That fixed my borrowing problem and then I recently changed that to $180 each Friday because I noticed I usually spend $100 or more on the weekend and less Monday - Thursday. Last week I got tired of catching her "borrowing" from our joint account before her paydays. she had the same bad habits as me before. so I told her if she just paid the $600 groceries, her $200 gas, and $200 in other family bills, it would be about the same as before and the "joint" account would become mine, which stopped her borrowing from it for personal expenses each pay period. That all went great until I calculated her paycheck minus those bills and noticed the difference. She's apparently been out spending me for years and I didn't even notice. I was a little jealous at first but it's my own fault for not paying attention and I don't think she was either. So my plan now is to let our new system work for a couple months and then talk to her when I'm not surprised.


not much. She has about $600 slack in her budget. Sometimes she pays extra on credit cards(balance is 20k), sometimes saves it for car service/etc.


9%, 6% into 401k and 3% match. We also pay $320/month on a couple negative cash flow rentals. Luckily both are above water, worth around $50k net.


$0 We live paycheck to paycheck.


$0. Home needs paint. Cars are 7 and 13 years old, both paid for.


$0 for college. $20/month for each of three kids. they all have about $3000 in mutual fund accounts from this. I'm hoping it will fund their IRAs someday or I'll just will it to them and hope I die before them. Not for car/college/house though.

Okay here is the problem that you are experiencing with her. You stated you have been married for 17 years. and during this 17 years you have never questioned or shared who spends what and what they do with their "extra" money. Yet, after 17 years you now want her to just do what you want and that is not fair. You can't just change the rules one day and expect her to go, oh okay. apparently you guys never determined how to handle saving money together. I would approach this in a way that says you are aware that this is a new thing. I would let her know that you would like to discuss new alternatives to how you can start saving as a couple. Though after that many years she may not be very receptive at first.

[disneysteve]

We've been married 17 years

Not the answer I was expecting.

Last week I got tired of catching her "borrowing" from our joint account

She's apparently been out spending me for years and I didn't even notice. I was a little jealous at first but it's my own fault for not paying attention

Deception and denial is a two way street. You can't be deceived unless you allow yourself to be deceived. It sounds like you accept responsibility for that. Don't blame her if you weren't paying attention.

She has about $600 slack in her budget. Sometimes she pays extra on credit cards(balance is 20k)

If there is $600/month extra, why is there still 20K in debt? Where is the money going?

9%, 6% into 401k and 3% match.

This is not 9% to retirement. It is 6% to retirement. The matching funds, while yours, don't count toward the standard recommendation of saving 15% for retirement. That is 15% plus any company match.

We also pay $320/month on a couple negative cash flow rentals. Luckily both are above water

Why are you holding on to investments that are losing money month after month? That is just making a bad situation even worse. If you can't raise the rent enough to break even, you need to put these on the market and sell them. Thankfully, you aren't upside down so you should be able to walk away without losing money.

$0 We live paycheck to paycheck.

Based on everything you've posted, there is absolutely no reason for this to be the case.

The regulars here will be surprised to hear this coming from me, but I would suggest you guys get involved with Dave Ramsey's plan. Go to the library and pick up his book "The Total Money Makeover" and read it and get her to read it. Consider enrolling in one of his classes being taught in your area. I would assume that you can locate the classes via his website, daveramsey.com. You guys need a lot more help than just trimming your allowance by $20/week (that's a good start but isn't going to impact the big picture). You need help to formulate an overall plan to slash spending, pay off debt and start saving.

[RayMetz100]

The time to deal with something like that is now, not next week, not two months from now. By putting this off for two more months, you will let your feelings fester and add more drama to the situation, not less.

This morning I took the plunge and asked her to sit with me for 10 minutes. I wrote out that her paycheck is $2500 (not counting the other $500 a month she gets in weekend work). Out of the $2500 comes $600 groceries, $200 gas, $100 IRS, and $100 Athletic club. That leaves her $1500 of discretionary money. She has been using $500 of that for bills like extra credit card or IRS payments, so really it leaves her $1000/month pocket money. (+$500 that she makes from weekends).

I suggested we put her $2500 paycheck into a joint account, give her $1800 cash for the groceries, gas, and pocket money, and we jointly decide what to do with the rest. She didn't go for that at all and we went back and forth for a few minutes before I had to run out the door for work.

She then called me later this morning and brought up how in our first 5 years of marriage she wasn't working and I gave her only $35 per week pocket money and she doesn't want me controlling anything. She feels like if she put her own paycheck into a joint account, she would be controlled by me again. She also brought up the issue that I don't trust her. Why do I need to calculate everything to the penny? Why can't I just trust her that she's handling her money appropriately and not think she's stealing from me or being reckless.

She also mentioned her gas is $400 not $200. I just listened, but internally have a hard time trusting that.

I told her we made enough progress for the morning and that I would think over the trust issue and try to answer that rather than work only numbers.

I would suggest you guys get involved with Dave Ramsey's plan

His radio show is what prompted me to plan each of my paychecks. Now that I have mine done, I'm trying to plan hers, hence the fireworks. I hope that one day her and I can go to FPU together, but for now I haven't mentioned Dave Ramsey or the radio show to her. I just make vague references like "wouldn't it be nice to have $1000 saved for a rainy day so we wouldn't have to use credit cards when something important comes up?" I'd rather say that than "Dave Ramsey says we should save $1000."

My paycheck plan is:
1st
Ray Paycheck $2,947.42
Chris Insurance $40.00
Tithe -$200.00
House, 1st -$2,056.78
Gas, Ray -$150.00
Taunya Parents -$195.00
Ray Pocket Money -$360.00
Balance $25.64

15th
Ray Paycheck $2,947.42
Tithe -$200.00
Utility, Electricity, PUD -$77.00
Utility, Water + Sewer -$60.00
Utility, Gas, PSE -$52.00
Utility, Garbage -$42.00
House 2nd -$354.75
Gas, Ray -$150.00
Auto Insurance, MetLife -$256.33
Rental, Sedro Woolley -$180.00
Rental, Darrington -$140.00
Credit Card, American Express -$139.00
Credit Card, Citibank #1 -$134.00
Credit Card, Citibank #2 -$53.00
Ray Pocket Money -$480.00
ATT Wireless -$389.00
Savings, Kids, Chris+Kayla -$40.00
Savings, Kids, Shaun -$20.00
TV + Internet, Comcast -$143.87
Entertainment, Netflix -$9.82
Balance $26.65

[disneysteve]

This morning I took the plunge and asked her to sit with me for 10 minutes.

She also mentioned her gas is $400 not $200.

Congrats on taking the first step and starting the conversation.
This will not be a quick fix or an overnight solution. It will involve a series of conversations and more open communication going forward. She is understandably resistant, as we figured she would be, but at least she knows now that you are paying attention and that you are cleaning up your own act and want to work with her to clean up your joint issues.

I have a lot more to say about your post but don't have time right now. I will just comment on the gas issue. Sorry to say this but she is lying. There is no way that she is spending $400/month on gas. Even at $3/gallon and 20mpg that works out to 32,000 miles/year. Around here, gas is $2.50 and most cars get more like 25mpg so that would pay for 48,000 miles/year. Surely, she isn't driving that much.

As I said in my first post to this thread, you have much deeper issues to deal with here.

[snshijuptr]

It seems like your relationship has a history of using money to control and spite each other. The ideal for separating money in a relationship is for different wants and incomes. She likes to buy shoes like crazy while he likes video games. They each have their own spending money to do that. You situation sounds like you both like to spend money and you "steal" it from each other and your children to fuel your spending habits. This sounds more like an addiction on both your parts.

You need to be careful that you respect her financial freedom as you begin budgeting. I would recommend that you stop calculating numbers without her present. Set aside an evening to discuss your future goals and do say that you think you both would benefit from a commercial financial plan such as Dave Ramsey (you could also look into others).

You need to understand that your initial post sounded greedy and jealous whether that was your motivation or not. You need to reassess the money boundaries in your relationship. Talk goals and what is a part of your partnership and what is not before you talk specific numbers.

[disneysteve]

her paycheck is $2500 (not counting the other $500 a month she gets in weekend work). Out of the $2500 comes $600 groceries, $200 gas, $100 IRS, and $100 Athletic club. That leaves her $1500 of discretionary money. She has been using $500 of that for bills like extra credit card or IRS payments, so really it leaves her $1000/month pocket money. (+$500 that she makes from weekends).

I suggested we put her $2500 paycheck into a joint account, give her $1800 cash for the groceries, gas, and pocket money, and we jointly decide what to do with the rest.

She also brought up the issue that I don't trust her. Why do I need to calculate everything to the penny? Why can't I just trust her that she's handling her money appropriately and not think she's stealing from me or being reckless.

She also mentioned her gas is $400 not $200. I just listened, but internally have a hard time trusting that.

I'll comment on some of this stuff and make another post to comment on your budget.

Basically, your household income is $9,000/month. You earn $6,000. She earns $3,000. So 2/3 from you and 1/3 from her. It is kind of hard to tell from what you've posted but it doesn't sound like she is paying 1/3 of expenses.

I think your suggestion to put some of her pay into a joint account is good but I wouldn't include her pocket money. She should have an account of her own for that so that she doesn't feel that you are micromanaging or monitoring all of her personal spending.

Why don't you trust her? Because it doesn't appear that she has done anything to earn that trust. How can you trust someone who refuses to share the most basic information, like how much she earns? Why don't you trust her? Because you've repeatedly caught her dipping into the joint account when she shouldn't have. Why don't you trust her? Because she is claiming to spend a ridiculous amount on gas that can't possibly be true unless she drives a ton of miles in a high performance sports car or a monster truck or some other big gas guzzler.

[disneysteve]

My paycheck plan is:
1st
Ray Paycheck $2,947.42
Chris Insurance $40.00
Tithe -$200.00
House, 1st -$2,056.78
Gas, Ray -$150.00
Taunya Parents -$195.00 What is this?
Ray Pocket Money -$360.00
Balance $25.64

15th
Ray Paycheck $2,947.42
Tithe -$200.00
Utility, Electricity, PUD -$77.00
Utility, Water + Sewer -$60.00
Utility, Gas, PSE -$52.00
Utility, Garbage -$42.00
House 2nd -$354.75
Gas, Ray -$150.00
Auto Insurance, MetLife -$256.33
Rental, Sedro Woolley -$180.00 What is this?
Rental, Darrington -$140.00 What is this?
Credit Card, American Express -$139.00
Credit Card, Citibank #1 -$134.00
Credit Card, Citibank #2 -$53.00
Ray Pocket Money -$480.00
ATT Wireless -$389.00 What is this?
Savings, Kids, Chris+Kayla -$40.00
Savings, Kids, Shaun -$20.00
TV + Internet, Comcast -$143.87
Entertainment, Netflix -$9.82
Balance $26.65

I'm guessing "Taunya Parents" might be money being repaid that was borrowed from her parents. Just wanted to be sure.
What are the 2 rental items? What are the terms there? How soon can you get out of those contracts?
If ATT WIreless is cell phone service, what the heck kind of service do you have that is nearly $400/month? We have AT&T cell phones. There are 5 of us including 2 iPhones and our monthly bill is only about $200.
We pay about $50 for cable and internet. You pay almost 3 times that much.
Tell us again what "Pocket Money" includes? $840/month is a lot of money.

What's the deal with the credit cards? You list them in your budget but also mention her paying them. And you mentioned something about IRS payments. Are you guys behind on taxes?

It is great that you've listened to Dave Ramsey but it is also quite clear that you aren't following his plan at all. You've got a bunch of debt, little to no savings, but have surrounded yourselves with luxuries. You have a written budget, but it only accounts for about 2/3 of your income. There is a great big chunk missing from the budget.

I can't say that I have any sage advice for you and perhaps I'm just pointing out the obvious, but your whole financial picture is a mess, especially your money relationship with your wife. Again, I think it is great that you have started the conversation and taken that first step to opening the lines of communication but you have a ton of work ahead of you to clean this up and get the two of you on the same page working together to fix the mess you've gotten yourselves into. Keep us posted on your progress.