How do I talk to my wife?

[disneysteve]

I think I can improve my personal finances without fear. Do you think fear is necessary?

Absolutely not. In fact, I think a big advantage of having a solid plan is eliminating fear. I don't have the "what if" worries because I know we have planned for them: life insurance, disability insurance, fully funded emergency fund, college savings, liquid savings, retirement savings. We're prepared for whatever life throws at us.

if I made double my salary, I may even be worse off.

That could be true, but you need to ask yourself why. If twice as much money wouldn't solve your financial problems, the problem isn't money.

Right now I need to worry more about how I'm managing our $130k/yr. and not worry about next year's income, whether it's $200k or $20k.

Wrong. This is where you are going off track. It is not just about managing what you have today. Planning for the future is the entire reason for creating a budget and sticking with it. You said earlier that you'd be thrilled to stick to a spending plan that had you spending 100% of your income. If you did that, I would consider it a total failure. A spending plan that includes no savings is not a plan worth following, even for one year. I guarantee you that something will happen in that year that wasn't accounted for in your spending plan and in the absence of savings, that will wreck the plan. Maybe a car repair, home repair, medical bill, family emergency, decrease in income or something else. The point is you need to prepare for the unexpected.

I would argue that you absolutely need to worry about next year's income. Why? If it goes up you won't have any issues but what if it goes down? If you are living on 100% of your current income, even a small drop in income will require you to redo your plan. On the other hand, if you were saving 20% of income, as we all recommend, a small drop in income could easily be absorbed by temporarily trimming the savings rate (although a better way to deal with it would be to trim spending).

You are trying to manage 130 k without the reality that you do not have 130k to manage (wife manages her own finances of approx 30k / year)

EVERYTHING needs to be expressed TOGETHER.

Seeker, you're entire post is excellent and spot-on advice. OP, read and re-read this post and take it to heart.

Households and families are "ours" -- stop thinking as an individual and 99.9999% of your problems will resolve themselves.

I agree, but only if his wife also stops thinking as an individual. Until they get on the same page and agree to work together, this will never work.

So what do I think you should be doing? I think you need to redo the spending plan you posted earlier to include savings. Since you have 6% of gross going to your 401k, add 14% of gross to your spending plan to total 20% going to savings. A total of 15% should go toward retirement, so 9% more than what you currently save. Open Roth accounts for you and your wife and fund them with $5,000 each for 2010. If that doesn't bring you up to the 15%, add more to the 401k. With the other 5% of the 20%, start building your emergency fund in a money market account. Then, look at the rest of your spending plan and make whatever cuts are necessary to accommodate that level of savings.

[Seeker]

So what do I think you should be doing? I think you need to redo the spending plan you posted earlier to include savings. Since you have 6% of gross going to your 401k, add 14% of gross to your spending plan to total 20% going to savings. A total of 15% should go toward retirement, so 9% more than what you currently save. Open Roth accounts for you and your wife and fund them with $5,000 each for 2010. If that doesn't bring you up to the 15%, add more to the 401k. With the other 5% of the 20%, start building your emergency fund in a money market account. Then, look at the rest of your spending plan and make whatever cuts are necessary to accommodate that level of savings.

I agree that nobody in a team, should be thinking as an individual; teams are all about the common goals and working together to share the enjoyment found when achieving that goal. This is so for all "teams"; whether it be marriage, sports, job, etc.

People alone can choose to resolve their own individual problem; but it takes more than one person to resolve a "team" issue. Without teamwork on a team issue, there will be no "resolution" ; no one person can change another, especially if that other does not understand what's going on.

I think, THEY need to sit together and redo the budget entirely. Not him alone; he has no idea of where a majority of "her" earnings has gone.

I think, she needs to exactly pinpoint the $ amount of her net earning over last month. He does not appear to have knowledge of this share.

I think he probably needs to do the same; she might not understand where all his earning go.

I think, THEY need to come up with a budget together; all expenses, not his nor hers as individual. I think they both need to track this and UNDERSTAND it; if something happens to either one of them, the other should be able to take over payments and know what to do either temporarily or permanently.

THEY need to work toward savings.

THEY need to work toward goals as well.

They both have older autos and do not budget for repairs? They do not budget for replacement? Do they ever take a vacation? Do they do anything TOGETHER?

---
Ray, your last sentence above disturbs me. It's like you plan for the here and now, with no regard to the future benefit or lack thereof. One day at a time.

It's like only today matters... to most people there's a tomorrow.

And the plan for tomorrow needs to happen as well.

You cannot expect your wife to follow you in a plan that does not worry about tomorrow.

[NJDebbie]

I was always found it strange when married people had separate finances, but as DS mentioned I've learned to remain partial in this matter. I do have a question; what would happen if one person in the marriage becomes ill and cannot work any longer and contribute to the household finances? The other person would have to pickup the slack, right? Do people with separate finances feel the same way? I'm just rather intrigued by the separate "pockets" mentality.

[disneysteve]

I think, THEY need to sit together and redo the budget entirely. Not him alone

Oh, I agree completely. That definitely needs to be the end result here. The point I was trying to make was that his first step can't be to try and stick to a plan with his portion of the money that spends every penny of it. Saving must be a part of the spending plan. I think it will be much easier to sit down with his wife and show her what he has come up with as a starting point if the plan includes savings and shows that he is concerned about and wanting to provide for their future needs as well as their present needs.

[disneysteve]

I was always found it strange when married people had separate finances, but as DS mentioned I've learned to remain partial in this matter. I do have a question; what would happen if one person in the marriage becomes ill and cannot work any longer and contribute to the household finances? The other person would have to pickup the slack, right? Do people with separate finances feel the same way? I'm just rather intrigued by the separate "pockets" mentality.

Debbie, I agree. It has always baffled me how couples make that work. It is just completely foreign to my idea (and my wife's) of how a couple should function. I don't say that to criticize. I just honestly don't understand how it works.

What happens if one partner hasn't saved enough for retirement? Will the other partner abandon them when they turn 65? What if they agree to take a vacation and when the time comes, one partner hasn't saved their share of the cost? Does the other person go alone?

[Seeker]

I was always found it strange when married people had separate finances, but as DS mentioned I've learned to remain partial in this matter. I do have a question; what would happen if one person in the marriage becomes ill and cannot work any longer and contribute to the household finances? The other person would have to pickup the slack, right? Do people with separate finances feel the same way? I'm just rather intrigued by the separate "pockets" mentality.

There's many reasons for "separate pockets."

1) Two very high-powered and controlling individuals may best enjoy their lives by controlling their own monies.

2) Either party having a previous marriage or separate interests (children, major assets -- home) that are apart from the current husband family/relationship and don't want to mix those finances.

3) Either one of the parties unable to reach agreement about how to spend or use monies for "common" goals.

4) Some people have hugely disparate incomes and maintain separate books because of owning their own business.... and depending on the business success or failure; the other marriage partner can be mixed into the problem if family assets (home) is tied into that business.

NJDebbie,

There's benefits to each way of doing things, or people would not do them. When we choose to marry, share 50/50 (or any other ratio), there should be understanding from both the people as to why.

Nobody should enter into any kind of relationship without knowing/understanding what their role is going to be financially, household chores, etc.

If anyone feels resentment or anger or that something is unfair and they feel that they cannot discuss this with their partner, then they very simply should not have married that person.

Communication and understanding are crucial to any future possibility of working together for the common good of both. The ability to communicate and talk everything through is crucial to a marriage. A marriage is a pairing of two unique individuals; a mergeing or sharing between those two people. Compromise and colaborate.

Individuals "needs" change over time.

A budget, any budget, whether 50/50 or not, needs to be adjusted over time as well.

Nothing in life is inflexible.

Human life is not meant to be inflexible.

The working together for the common good of the two married people tends to bind the two even more so. As a whole "love" grows as people struggle through the daily life issues in marraige. Even as one bends a little and compromises for the other, the other grows too.

It is hoped, that by the time that one person fails in a relationship, assuming that the other feels the same, assuming that the partnership has been good for both, then it is hoped that the other just automatically "picks up the slack" either temporarily or permanently.

But all of that is based on love.

And love is not based in numbers, nor in finances for most people. I know many people will come back at me and say marriages fail because of money; my response to that will always be that "No, money is used as an excuse for marriage failure because it is something that is measurable. The reality is that most marriages fail because one party changed some behavior.... and behaviors cannot be measured. Money is just the easy excuse."

[Seeker]

Debbie, I agree. It has always baffled me how couples make that work. It is just completely foreign to my idea (and my wife's) of how a couple should function. I don't say that to criticize. I just honestly don't understand how it works.

What happens if one partner hasn't saved enough for retirement? Will the other partner abandon them when they turn 65? What if they agree to take a vacation and when the time comes, one partner hasn't saved their share of the cost? Does the other person go alone?

A just married and starting out from scratch husband and wife have nothing to lose by going 50/50. Me and DH would have done that if we were both young and started out in love with no assets to either of our names.

But that did not happen. I had a 100% paid for condo before I even met the man that was to be my knight in shining armor. My knight had a bk and education debts. Would you not recommend keeping "his" and "hers" separate in this case?

He earns 50% of what I earn. 50% of my pay goes into our joint account. The rest of my pay goes into my account; but is used jointly. His allowance comes from my account. Vacations comes from my account and we do not do separate vacations. DH and I share so many interests, it's like we want to do the same things anyway.

Believe me DisneySteve, even though there's a measure of separateness, monies are mixed. They cannot help be be shared even while separate. He has and uses a CC for anything of an emergency nature. We discuss everything not of an emergency. He is named as the beneficiary of anything owned separately.... and POD on any of my accounts; he is my everything. I keep it separate for his protection too.

[disneysteve]

Seeker, I wasn't criticizing. This is just one of those things I'm always working to understand. Having never been in a relationship where money wasn't joint, I don't get the nuts and bolts of it, how it works on a day to day basis or on a long-term basis for that matter.

Our money is totally and completely joint. The only accounts in one name are our Roths and my wife's 401k because those things can't be jointly titled. Otherwise, it all goes into one pot regardless of who earned it or where it will be spent. And even the retirement accounts are joint in a way since my wife doesn't earn enough to fund a Roth from her earnings so we fund it as a spousal account with my earnings. We did that for 10 years when she was a SAHM and continue to do it now that she does work some. So basically, we don't have any money that isn't considered a joint asset and neither of us makes any significant purchase without consulting the other. We agree that what either one of us spends affects the other, regardless of where the money may have originated. So when I read about couples that don't share that mindset, I can't really grasp how they do things.

[RayMetz100]

Ray, your last sentence above disturbs me. It's like you plan for the here and now, with no regard to the future benefit or lack thereof. One day at a time.

You are right. That line of thinking has gotten me this far. I want more so I'll have to start thinking more about the future and not just if what's in my wallet will meet today’s need.

There's a "trust" issue on both your parts. Understandably. After 17 years of marriage, you may want a change, but you're also bi-polar. If wife is a realist, she will not be able to change under those circumstances.

She will not be able to change under those circumstances. How true. My circumstances have changed recently. The written budget (with no savings) is something new for me. Part of the reason I did it is to communicate to her there is no room and that she'll need the savings. I shouldn't have communicated so indirectly though. My goal shouldn't be to disclose "my" part and hope she picks up "her" part. My goal should be to gain her trust so that we can work on "our" finances together. The next time I communicate with her, I'll try to leave the short term goals or indirect messages out of it and aim for trust and togetherness. We're a long ways off from that.

Seeker, you're entire post is excellent and spot-on advice. OP, read and re-read this post and take it to heart.

Indeed. Thanks Seeker.

If the two of you really wish to "fix" this, then it is imperative that you both sit down together for a good length of time

I'm still not sure if she's going to put up with me for a good length of time. I don't blame her considering my past. For now I'm going to stick to short conversations with a focus on building trust rather than quick-fixes.

you do not understand your wife. She has "settled" for controlling her own income. She has met with your expectations for her income share. And she has issues communicating effectively with you as well. Frankly, if I were her, I would have taken control of everything "financial" in my household (if it were my household).

I think we've both settled from incompetence on both our parts. Luckily this wonderful country's economy has supported us anyway. It's amazing how plants flourish in cracks of dust in the strangest places. There are more stable ways to grow with some planning, but this wonderful world allows basic life for little to no planning. I've just recently decided I'm willing to put in planning and trust building time for more than an basic financial existence. The odds are if I do, it will grow.

stop thinking as an individual and 99.9999% of your problems will resolve themselves

I have been selfish. I have a very carefree attitude and believe I can support myself or I will be supported under any circumstance. Even if true, that attitude doesn't fly as well when I'm paired with my wife. My individual thinking has caused her to protect herself and grasp whatever she can. If she thinks as a team and shares, then my individual mindset just has more room to be greedy. I feel the same about her and we compete over our resources. More resources aren’t the answer. One party spending less doesn't help much either. Hopefully I'm starting to get it. This knowledge you've shared still needs action though.

Wrong. This is where you are going off track. It is not just about managing what you have today. Planning for the future is the entire reason for creating a budget and sticking with it.

Just managing what you have today isn't making progress in saving. I agree with that. I still think that if someone had the skill of being on budget, spending 100% of his income, it would be easier to turn that person into a saver. If someone can't or won't save, I still think they are benefited by making and following a budget. Once they see it in black and white and practice following it, they learn to trust themselves and believe that a small adjustment to the budget will result in savings. Ideally, the first time someone does a budget; it will have savings from the start. But I don't think the whole exercise is pointless if there is no savings. Even retirees spending their savings or college kids spending their parents money can benefit from a budget. I believe I can too. Savings or not. I believe it will result in savings once I get more practice with it and work on trusting and gaining trust with my wife.

Until they get on the same page and agree to work together, this will never work.

Define work. With my definition I think it's working already. I'm aiming for progress, not perfection and I feel I made progress this week. To me work is the journey, not the goal. I could win the lottery and save half of it next week and not have made as much progress as I did this week.

I think you need to redo the spending plan you posted earlier to include savings.

My plan had $50 savings but I found my gas costs more than $300 a month. I called my cell phone company and think I reduced that by $50. I'm getting my mom off my plan in a few weeks which should drop it another $70. If I redo it as an individual I don't have much room. I can give the cable or other bills to my wife, but that's not the direction I want to go. If I can get enough trust with her, we will redo our budget toegther and there will be more savings. For now I'm going to work on my individual budget with the goal of gaining her trust and there will be little savings. I'll re-post it in a few weeks, either mine alone again or hopefully hers and mine together.

I think, THEY need to sit together and redo the budget entirely.

Working on it. That would take two. Last I checked she's not willing to share her income amount. I have to calculate it from finding a paystub or last year's taxes. I think with a little time I can have a better story here.

I think, she needs to exactly pinpoint the $ amount of her net earnings over last month. He does not appear to have knowledge of this share.

From her point of view she doesn't need to, doesn't want to, and shouldn't. I must have been doing something this past 17 years to create the mistrust and protectiveness in her. I need no "want" to fix that. Give me some trust building tips maybe. I think maintaining, sticking to, and sharing my non-savings budget is a good start. It's going to take more than flowers.

[Seeker]

Ray,

Think about these:

1) The times you've been in the hospital, she's had to do it all alone.

You wrote that she taught you a bit about handling cash and you took it in, heard and modified your cash consumption somewhat to better match your real-life habit or need through each week. Does she recognize this? Do you know whether or not she's noticed that you have incorporated one of her suggestions into your reality?

2) A good part of the way a woman thinks (especially if she has children), is about the future.

Have you ever sat down with her and planned some future event? Any budget plan without mention of savings or goals that are being worked toward for the future, are completely unimaginable to a woman.

She cannot and will not share her work earnings without understanding how it better helps the whole current reality or the whole future reality or both herself and the ones she loves.

Even a surprise "Hun, let's go for a walk" with a smile on your face and a drive to a park with couple of Subway sandwichs in hand, and a bottle of water on your belt might help. Do this just to be with her, not necessarily to talk, just to smile and enjoy each other for a bit of quiet time outside the home, outside the work (recognize that her home life, is "work" as well, and recognize that we all need escapes), will help both you and her learn to be with each other again.

3) The "circumstance" that I refer to is the fact that you and she have shared 17 years of your lives together. 17 years of no direction for the future. No plan.

IMO she had to split off her earnings for her own peace of mind. To have a bit of dollars to fall back on if you failed them (wife and children) completely. I would have saved as many dollars in this situation that I could; but she may not have.

To live with a known bi-polar person, means to live with an instability; it would be a sort of roller-coaster ride of emotion. I do not know that I could have married such a person; I respect the woman that you call "wife" in a great many ways just knowing that she's stayed with you through it all. Think about that.

4) BOTH of you have been selfish and child-like in some respects though. If both of you recognize that and work together toward fixing these issues, yes, everything will get better.

But you both have to recognize that the past is unchangeable. Proceeding forward alone, without talking with her, and really listening, hearing and understanding her view, is unimagineable to me as well.

You can only move forward; and if you and she still "love" each other, the the moving forward has to be defined as a team.

Figure out what she envisions for the future. And try to plan it for both of you.

If you and she cannot approach a collaborated definition of income and expenses, skip that for now (just do the best you can to modify and change your side of earnings and expenses).

Instead you and she need to come up with a collaborated defintion of goals for the two of you as a team... or a vacation for the two of you to just simply be with each other for a week or so.

The goal here is to learn to be with and talk and trust one another again.

5) "Work" as DisneySteve wrote, means: to do something, to take an action. He is right in that it cannot be journeyed toward alone. She must also want to take that journey. The journey is toward a goal; there's no real distinction between the two physical words. Goals change, so no one really attains a goal such that it stops; the journey is ongoing, so is the goal.

You can indeed aim and work for progress (this is all anyone can do), but it does take two people to work for progress toward the goal of being a family.

Understand that you are a member of a team; you are not the controller, you are a member. Same for her.

You can have a manager of finances, usually the one better suited toward handling finances does that job.

You can have a manager of children, usually the one better suited helps in those tasks.

You can have domains; or realms of expectations; garages, kitchens, yardwork, housework and who does what in these areas that are collaborated.

Expectations define roles. Collaboration, agreement or compromise defines teamwork. Understanding the world around you means communication.

Understand that in marriage, the only "controller" is the team. If you have either party controlling the other, then you do not have a collaboration or a team.

In reality, there is no "controller" in a marriage; the "collaboration or goal" is the driver or controller, and the members of the team "share" in whatever tasks (expectations) are needed to be done to reach that goal.

----

You may not have done anything outwardly to alieniate her. Mistrust is borne of action or inaction. I suspect that you each have been living your own separate lives, not really understanding each other or sort of tied up in each of your separate selves. Each of you probably have been doign the best that you could under yours and hers perceptions.

Understand that "trust" does not come from words, it only comes from actions. Humans are very fallible, it is very easy to say one thing and do another. It is very easy to misinterpret or say the wrong thing. Actions speak reality. Words are highly inefficient.

She must see you change for the better. She must see that you are consistent in wanting to change things for the better.

She must see that you are seeing her once again, and the way to accomplish this is really very simple:

You have to comment on things that make her realize that you are seeing her once again.

The twinkle in her eye, the smile she smiles, the touch she uses, some interaction between her and one of the children... your noticing and commenting on her actions, yes even her subconcious acts of kindness, will make her realize that you've "woken up" so to speak. Actions are everything. You need to "learn her" all over again and verbalize that recognition of her actions that you love.

This is not financial in nature -- sorry to have gotten so far off-topic.

But the question was asked, and I hope that I helped provide some direction.

[maddog21]

Wow! This is an interesting situation. The truth is you guys are a team and there is really no reason why you shouldn't feel comfortable telling each other about your finances. I think you should read some team building books that help you get on the same page and work toward the same goals. I read the book ABC's of Building Business Teams that Win and surprisingly there were some great insights into marriage teams as well. My feeling is that the first thing you should do is get on the same page and figure out where you both want to be in the future.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Where are the children in this budget, other than the $20 each per month for saving? Are they provided for through the mysterious, unaccounted for part of your wife's money life? Through the credit cards?

[ktmarvels]

I think you can have the conversations about budgeting and the like without knowing her exact income. How I'd approach it is to get together and write down all the places your money goes. All bills, all debt payments, savings, anything. Then divide it up, each of you selecting which bills you are going to pay. You pay your gas, she pays hers. If you don't want to pay for cable, and it's important to her, let her take that bill. For things you both use, like mortgage, divide it up 50/50 (If you knew how much she earned, this could be adjusted to reflect the actual earning percentages).

When doing this be sure not to take on more than you can handle. Doing this can get you both on the same page regarding household money. It may be that she doesn't know how much you are actually spending...and maybe you don't either. Maybe her being faced with actual numbers will help her see things differently and want to change too.

[disneysteve]

Just managing what you have today isn't making progress in saving. I agree with that. I still think that if someone had the skill of being on budget, spending 100% of his income, it would be easier to turn that person into a saver. If someone can't or won't save, I still think they are benefited by making and following a budget. Once they see it in black and white and practice following it, they learn to trust themselves and believe that a small adjustment to the budget will result in savings. Ideally, the first time someone does a budget; it will have savings from the start. But I don't think the whole exercise is pointless if there is no savings.

My plan had $50 savings but I found my gas costs more than $300 a month. I called my cell phone company and think I reduced that by $50. I'm getting my mom off my plan in a few weeks which should drop it another $70.

I see your point but I still maintain that the plan you listed contains so much fat and frivolous spending that tweaking it just a little to include some savings really needs to be a part of it. You aren't living paycheck to paycheck because you are earning minimum wage and struggling to get by. You are living that way entirely by choice. You just identified $120 in savings by reducing the cell phone bill and getting your mom off the plan. Why not designate that $120 for savings? That will give you a decent starter emergency fund of $1,440 a year from now.

I have a question about gas usage. You say you spend over $300 and your wife claims to spend $400. What the heck do you guys do? And what are you driving? Around here, gas is currently $2.50/gallon. Let's say it is $2.75 where you live. Average US gas mileage is 20mpg (though that includes all vehicles so your car is probably higher than that). So $700/month at $2.75/gallon is 255 gallons/month times 20mpg is 5,090 miles/month or over 61,000 miles/year. That is some serious driving. Do you both have really long commutes?

[Seeker]

I see your point but I still maintain that the plan you listed contains so much fat and frivolous spending that tweaking it just a little to include some savings really needs to be a part of it. You aren't living paycheck to paycheck because you are earning minimum wage and struggling to get by. You are living that way entirely by choice. You just identified $120 in savings by reducing the cell phone bill and getting your mom off the plan. Why not designate that $120 for savings? That will give you a decent starter emergency fund of $1,440 a year from now.

I have a question about gas usage. You say you spend over $300 and your wife claims to spend $400. What the heck do you guys do? And what are you driving? Around here, gas is currently $2.50/gallon. Let's say it is $2.75 where you live. Average US gas mileage is 20mpg (though that includes all vehicles so your car is probably higher than that). So $700/month at $2.75/gallon is 255 gallons/month times 20mpg is 5,090 miles/month or over 61,000 miles/year. That is some serious driving. Do you both have really long commutes?

DS, I believe the initials in his utility bills points to Washington state. Gasoline there is pretty much 2.75/gallon... so you've hit it on the head. I don't know why, but I beleieve that somewhere along the line he said that she drives a Lexus and he drives a truck (Ford F150 maybe?).

He's already implied that she helps with paying toward their CC bill, and she pays for the repair of her car, and I rather think that neither of them have tracked groceries, nor gasoline.... because I find it difficult to believe that they spend $600 per month on groceries, and their gasoline is not right either... at least not without a whole lot more dining outside the home and a whole lot more dring per week than is reasonable in their area.

There's a lot of fat everywhere in the numbers presented here, but I don't have a sense of the truth of it. I believe he's trying to get a handle on it, but without her input and the reality, I don't have a sense of what is really happening. I get a partial sense that she does pay the bills, and he while writing about all of this is frustrated because he does not have that sense of what her earnings are and where she helps or does not help.

They both want to control, and they both are in competition. 17 years of this could not be easy. She is defensive and protective.