what is your monthly income?

[Gruntina]

As for pick-ups, that's what I thought too. When work requires it, it would be a necessity, of course.

I just wonder whether this recession and the ever increasing oil prices will make the die-hard monster-car owners switch to smaller vehicles. To me, milage was one of the important criteria...

I work for HR for a worldwide high tech corporation and returning back to school one class at a time on my private time to work for my Masters in Occupational Therapist. I have my professional clothing’s on with heels and such and drive a "Monster" as you describes above.

When I am off work, I haul in firewood’s and do chopping, landscaping, and rebuilding a house. So why would I want a Pick-up truck for the wood hauling, a different car let's say a sedan with 4wheel drives (required as I live in the summit of the mountain and pay insurance, license and fees and maintenance on two vehicles?

I found the SUV to be a good compromise for me. The space in back can be hauling home improvements supplies and building materials and large loads of groceries (I live a good 45 minutes away from any groceries stores) and yes I do commute 50 miles a day into the city for work. We might have children in the near future so everything is set in one vehicle that meets all of my needs that would not work in a small car with 4 cylinders.

Yes gas prices are high, but having a beautiful home on large land was cheaper for us than most others simply because we are building by hand. So it evens out in different ways for me. Saving money also help shield from recession dangers so savings needs to be a priority.

I buy a vehicle to serve my needs not the other way around. If the gas is high, I just have to accept as there is no alternate choice I would rather want to do. So if you see a gal in heels and dress driving a SUV, perhaps there more to it than her obvious daily job for having the SUV which why you should not judge so quickly.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Syracusa, I would be interested in seeing the neighborhood that did not feel right for you. I'm curious as to how it would strike me. I also wonder about your husband saying that the sort of people that you are looking to live near have stretched themselves to live in an even more expensive area. Does he know that for certain, or could it be that he is deceiving himself because he would prefer to stretch to live in a more expensive area, perhaps more like the one he is familiar with, as you say his family does have more money than the two of you at this point? It is too bad that the downtown area that might interest you is too expensive. I have always told myself that if I would have to relocate quickly to an unfamiliar city, I would just find a place to live near a university. I feel like my chances of living near people who are open minded and accepting of many kinds of people go up if I live in a university neighborhood.

Nonetheless, I don't live in a university neighborhood now. The median household income in my neighborhood is only about $30,000, there are a lot of pick-ups, and lately I find someone's big screen TV blinking at me through their living room window when I sit on my front porch in the evening. On the other hand, the by far busiest branch of the public library is in my neighborhood, so I suppose someone is reading , eh, "to save their lives."

I find my neighborhood pleasant. I am not the best of friends with my neighbors, but we do have some meaningful friendships. I am able to have friendships and just kindly interactions with people pretty much without regard to things like whether they have even read a book recently. Oh, I wish that everyone would, but that doesn't stop me from liking and enjoying them. Come to think of it, I've had neighbors over who were quite surprised to see two 8 foot bookshelves in the living room and who asked, "Don't you have a TV?" I smile to myself and do not mention that these shelves contain the overflow from the shelves in the bedrooms.

Yes, there really are people who don't read books, newspapers, magazines, anything (except internet?), but we can still talk and visit. But then, there are other people who also "have books on their shelves," if I may use that metaphorically. There is a ballerina who dances internationally, a professor of painting, one of English, a director of archives for a history museum, a musician, a photographer for an alternative paper. A few others I know very little about including 2 police officers, a firefighter, a woman who cleans offices at night, a man with a concrete business, a tree trimmer, an apprentice plumber, several restaurateurs, a funeral home owner, a couple of low level landscapers and mowers, a woman who retired from the city water sanitation lab, a man who works in the field on the water system, someone who does high tech "clean room" maintenance, a couple who worked all their lives after 1945 in a light bulb factory. We bought our house from that couple. They moved just seven houses down the street, and yes, we did go to barbecues at their house. They've both died now, but they were anchors of the neighborhood.

I understand that you don't like characterizing people by what they do to earn their money, but for some of my neighbors, that is about all I know about them. I just want to show that there is a mix of people in my neighborhood and it is not one in which too many people are stretching very hard to live. Oh, doubtlessly, some are stretching, especially those whose income is well below the median, but those would be stretching to live pretty much anywhere. So maybe the key is to find a place to live where people are not scared of one another, where people are comfortable with a simple pleasant sufficiency, and where they live genuinely rather than in giddy fashionability that too easily becomes critical anxiety. That can even be found among people who drive trucks, have big TVs, watch ball games, and _gulp_ don't read.

By the way, check out the first section of my blog entry of April 6 for a little encouragement about truck driving. The link is in the upper right hand corner of my post in this thread.

You know what? I don't follow any sports; I don't know much about any sport. Popular music is the same. But I think that is too bad. I see other people getting a lot of enjoyment out of sports and music. I see that I have missed out on a lot of pleasure and enjoyment of other people by never having taken up these two things. Well, I guess I just have other priorities, but I still see that sports and popular music and probably a number of other things I've never delved into do have value. I'm glad people enjoy them and participate in them, too.

[jIM_Ohio]

I drive a 1998 Toyota Camry, but many times I've felt quite out of place in a parking lot trying to find my car hidden in a sea of monstrous SUVs. Go into a school parking lot (elementary especially) and you are likely to see nothing but SUVs and minivans at pick-up time.

Of course, we also own a 2000 Toyota Sienna minivan, so I'm half guilty.

As for pick-up trucks, I don't think I know anyone who drives one who doesn't work in a job where such a vehicle is necessary. I know plenty of people with pick-ups but they all do construction, electrical work, plumbing, painting, landscaping, etc. I can't think of anyone I know with an office job who drives a pick-up.

I work in an office and drive a honda ridgeline.

It has 5 seatbelts and a bed I carry soccer equipment in, and take things on vacation with.

soccer equipment would fit in an SUV, but it smells up the interior.

[tripods68]

Hey Syracusa

I completely understand where you're coming from. In fact I would probably enjoy a conversation with you

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Syracusa I believe you are still reading my posts. And I believe you still respond. I never start the inflammatory posts, you do. If you look at every thread you start by posting how much you hate X, and X. But like the poster said, all you do is judge and complain. You never bother to get to know the person.

And Simpleyme, I love Harleys. My brother had a suzuki, yamaha and most recently a harley softail. I used to have a vespa.

[maat55]

After reading The Millionaire Next Door, I think al you high salary incomers are possible EOC's, but not likely UAW's.

[InDebtInDC]

I work in an office and drive a honda ridgeline.

It has 5 seatbelts and a bed I carry soccer equipment in, and take things on vacation with.

soccer equipment would fit in an SUV, but it smells up the interior.

I do as well, and I drive a Dodge Ram Quad Cab with an 8' bed. My main job doesn't require any transportation, but I do small side jobs and use the truck for mostly hobby purposes, moving, hauling stuff for people, etc.

Like yesterday I hauled an engine for my friend. I wouldn't have been able to do that in a smaller vehicle.

Next week I'm towing somebody's car 500 miles to help her move. Door to door vehicle delivery is about $800, so we save some money.


But the truth is I really enjoy driving a large vehicle simply because of other drivers who are reckless and endanger my life as well as other people's lives. I always do the speed limit in the right lane, and I always follows as many traffic laws as I can.

As big as I am, small vehicles still cut me off and weave around larger trucks, semi's, etc., like they're invincible. For example, last year my friend's brother and his friend was killed when a criminal ran a red light during a high speed police pursuit. Their small car was torn apart and they were pronounced dead on the scene through no fault of their own.

If somebody drives recklessly and hits me, short of a semi, they will probably get the worse of the impact.

Anybody in the auto insurance industry will tell you that it's not a matter of if, but when you will be involved in a collision. Statistically it's almost impossible to be incident-free if you drive at all. I have never caused an accident, but I've been involved in several accidents due to other people's fault. I was injured severely and my vehicles have been destroyed.

My most severe accident was caused by an unlicensed immigrant (I'm an immigrant myself so don't give me drama) driving a commercial dump truck. He then fled the country after putting me in the hospital for a long time and my car was sent to the junkyard. What am I supposed to do?

I'll give up my truck, and my gun, if somebody can guarantee me with 100% certainty that I won't be bullied by others. If you can do that, I'll gladly drive a smart car

Otherwise, please don't ask me to give up my personal protection and expose myself to more risk if you can't offer me any help.

[disneysteve]

whats all this talk about trucks LOL
if you want people to think you are trash do what I do pull in on a Harley LOL

I know a few people who spent more on their Harleys than I spent for my car. Those things can be quite expensive.

[InDebtInDC]

I know a few people who spent more on their Harleys than I spent for my car. Those things can be quite expensive.

You know that stock Harleys start at $15-20k easily. Add on more for custom stuff and you can have $50k invested easily.

[simpleyme]

yes motorcycles can be expensive but people still think you are trash when you pull up on one LOL

[LivingAlmostLarge]

It's very fun! And fuel economical. I used to ride my scooter year round in So. Ca. Now if only my DH would let me have a real bike!

[syracusa]

Hey Syracusa

I completely understand where you're coming from. In fact I would probably enjoy a conversation with you

Thank you for "getting me" though I normally would not expect this kind of solidarity. I am aware that some of my views are not in sync with today's mainstream American culture, not even the mainstream of other contemporary cultures. I admit to having some strong views about certain things that may not be all that popular today or may be perceived as old-fahion, dated or no longer "in"; but at the same time I resent having to always "shut up" and keep low profile just because my views are not some of the most democratic, fashionable, or "in" to date.

However, I have always made a point of avoiding ad hominem attacks, of pointing fingers at specific people and using insulting, in your face expressions. I certainly would never tell a forum member "I don't like you! " simply because what they said is not along the lines of my own values or beliefs.
I would probably debate the issue with the arguments I have at hand but would never just tell someone "I don't like you, you're arrogant, you're rude" based on their views only. My point here boilt down to "I am just not compatible with certain types of people and it would be nice if I could live in a neighborhood with people I could relate to and click with". That was all.

Those who felt they could strongly indentify with the prototype I have
described jumped out of their chairs with a declaration of war. But then again, I am not surprised. I just find it funny how the biggest champions of "diversity", "niceness", "everybody is great just the way they are!", "I've never met a person I did not like" theories become the most agressive, out of control individuals when they hear views lying outside of their popular doctrines.

In the end, I've always wished everyone well, including to those people I do not see myself compatible with vor a variety of reasons. Live and let live is one thing. Being a hypocrite or wasting your time (and theirs!) with people with whom you cannot connect on a meaningful level is another.

[disneysteve]

My point here boilt down to "I am just not compatible with certain types of people and it would be nice if I could live in a neighborhood with people I could relate to and click with". That was all.

I understand that. That is exactly why my wife and I chose NOT to live in a neighborhood populated with doctors, lawyers and other professionals, even though I myself am a physician. We wouldn't fit in, plain and simple, because we choose to not live the "doctor" lifestyle. We don't want the big house, luxury car, finely landscaped property, designer clothing, etc., and that is how most of my peers live. We don't belong to the country club or send our kids to private school or have custom paving stones leading to our door.

Instead, we bought a modest older home in a more working-class neighborhood. One neighbor works for the utility company. Another works at an auto dealership. A couple of others are teachers. I know of two who are firemen. There are quite a few stay-at-home moms and several retirees. I consider our neighborhood much more down to earth than the neighborhoods where most of my peers live in our area.

[syracusa]

I also wonder about your husband saying that the sort of people that you are looking to live near have stretched themselves to live in an even more expensive area.

I wondered about that too. I don't know for sure whether he is right or wrong. I just recounted what he said. I questioned him about it, thinking that it is impossible that so many people in this country would choose to live their lives in such "large", irresponsible ways. He basically said that MOST people in this country do exactly THAT because they do not see the need to save the percentage of income that I aim to save ( I shoot for 20%-30% of gross income). Whether we are talking about the more blue-collar/working class, the "professional" class or other groups of people, pretty much everyone - he says - goes for higher mortgage at given income than I am willing to go to.

I told him then that I consider all these "everyone" to be plain irresponsible and that I do not want to make the choices they make even if this represents a good part of America.

He then said...well, then this is the kind of neighborhood we will be able to afford at this mortgage level. I said "be it" - even though, like I said before and I will say it again - I did not feel I could relate to the kind of people living in that neighborhood. That was primarily based on countenance, eyes, gaze, demeanour, appearance and yes, even based on choice of cars or decorations. I know the latter are much more superficial criteria for drawing completely accurate conclusions but they still worked for me, historically. However, that "sparkle" (or lack thereof) in the eyes and the gaze...they never lied to me. NEVER.
And do not get me wrong: those houses did not look bad at all, many quite nice, and many of those gas-guzzling cars were anything but inexpensive. So I certainly did not get the feeling of "sweet, cozy, street-smart, Down-to-Earth working/middle class people" that some seem to idealize.

Does he know that for certain, or could it be that he is deceiving himself because he would prefer to stretch to live in a more expensive area, perhaps more like the one he is familiar with, as you say his family does have more money than the two of you at this point?

I think he used to be much more open to debt than he is today because well...he always saw that everyone lives like this here: car loans, student loans, mortgage (and not small mortgages, obviously). He does not have these views anymore. We are very much on the same page financially maybe because I have been "beating my views into his head" for a while now. He was able to see how we just slowly got rid of unnecessary debt if we just "keep it together" and live with dignity, below our means, which meant giving up some culturally-dictated notions of "large enough space", "good enough car"/ "safe enough car", etc. Now we only have the mortgage but I still resent even this one, particularly because low - it is not, as we are still in the city. It is hard to be psychologically OK with living in a bank's house basically, when most people in my homecountry think that we must be insane to get into such debt when for them it is perfectly preferable to live with mama-in-law and daddy-in-law FOR FREE AND with FREE childcare handy, at all times.

Yes, his family and most of our friends have more money than we do and I think there's a part of my husband, somewhere deep down in his American soul , that would still fancy living in a big, showy house, driving a respectable, "succesful" type car (which I loathe) and so on. I can't entirely blame him since most people's self-esteem in this culture is organically tied to "how much they make" and what their "material lifestyles/achievements" say about them.

Books like "The Millionaire Next Door" aside - there is an undebatable tendency in this culture to weigh someone's value based on their financial potential, doings, achievements only...and people can only know that about you when you more or less ..."SHOW IT, baby". That's why most people behave the way they behave. I would be willing to bet that those "modest millionaires next door" are few and far between.

It is too bad that the downtown area that might interest you is too expensive.

Yes, it is - not only expensive but also far away from my future workplace. We could never justify it. I do, however, have a former colleague (professor) who went to He** and back to buy some delapidated, horrible, bug infested house in that historic neighborhood (that he could barely afford) - just TO BE THERE and not somewhere else...for schools, for this, for that. He wanted to be in that "professorial/intellectual" area at any cost and THERE he ended up. I would not (and could not) go that far even though I would certainly like to have intellectually-inclined or just plain interesting neighbors.

But no, you can't have everything just right - so it will be the ..."not-so-interesting" neighborhood for us.

[syracusa]

I understand that. That is exactly why my wife and I chose NOT to live in a neighborhood populated with doctors, lawyers and other professionals, even though I myself am a physician. We wouldn't fit in, plain and simple, because we choose to not live the "doctor" lifestyle. We don't want the big house, luxury car, finely landscaped property, designer clothing, etc., and that is how most of my peers live. We don't belong to the country club or send our kids to private school or have custom paving stones leading to our door.

Instead, we bought a modest older home in a more working-class neighborhood. One neighbor works for the utility company. Another works at an auto dealership. A couple of others are teachers. I know of two who are firemen. There are quite a few stay-at-home moms and several retirees. I consider our neighborhood much more down to earth than the neighborhoods where most of my peers live in our area.

DisneySteve,

That is so interesting. You obviously have the best insight into the world of your peers - doctors/lawyers (I am not going to include professors here because these are usually on the high education/lower income ratio). But it just makes you think about the motives of most of these professionals when they decide on medical/legal careers. I have always wondered how much of it is true love of profession and how much is love of the flashy lifestyle, social status, awe/respect drawn from the public.

Based on how most doctors expedite my appointments with them, I suspect a lot of the latter. My GP is the only exception I have seen so far (I am sure there are many others): a wonderful man originally from a developing country, who seems to be living your lifestyle. His pace is much slower during appointments, his communication with me as a patient, infinitely more satisfying...and it's just nice to see these exceptions to the dreaded rule.

Perhaps I could hope to find some "DisneySteve-types", who made a responsible financial choice, in that mixed / middle-working class neighborhood? Very possible...and this is what I am counting on.