You really should be driving an electric car

[disneysteve]

I priced a dedicated 220V install and that was $1500.

Yeah, people are just going to rush out and do that I'm sure.

I have no fundamental objection to EVs. I just don't think the infrastructure to support widespread use of them exists yet. I have no doubt that it's better than it was 5 years ago and will be far better 5 years from now. But today, right now, I don't think it's sufficient to encourage broad adoption. Every new technology has early adopters who are willing to put up with some inconveniences in order to have the latest greatest thing. I think that's the stage we are in with EVs.

[corn18]

Yeah, people are just going to rush out and do that I'm sure.

I have no fundamental objection to EVs. I just don't think the infrastructure to support widespread use of them exists yet. I have no doubt that it's better than it was 5 years ago and will be far better 5 years from now. But today, right now, I don't think it's sufficient to encourage broad adoption. Every new technology has early adopters who are willing to put up with some inconveniences in order to have the latest greatest thing. I think that's the stage we are in with EVs.

I think that's why our EV will be a 3rd car. That way we can see what it's all about and if it fits our lifestyle. Not a solution for the masses, though.

I can remember when the US government phased out leaded gas. You should have heard my dad blowing a gasket. And the unleaded cars in that day were horrible because the engines could not produce horsepower without pinging (compression ratios needed to produce any hp with a carburetor were way too high for unleaded gas). Oh lord, everyone in my town bitched to high heaven. Now we can make 400 hp unleaded gas engines that get 30 mpg.

I think regulating ICE vehicles out of existence is silly. Regulate emissions and mpg and eventually something will have to pop out. Maybe it's something we haven't thought of yet. Deciding now that it is an EV is contrary to how innovation works.

[Singuy]

I don't believe that Govt can regulate a solution. Sorry. Guess I am in the minority. The market is far better at efficiency than govt ever will be. One one hand, the govt wants lighter cars to increase efficiency. Which as we know also results in more car deaths. And, then we have more and more standards for placing kids in car seats for years and then parents dont' have enough room so that often pushed them to buy big SUVs when you used to easily carry 5 people in a standard sedan. There is a push one way but that always seems to come with competing new regulations as well.

I live in a cold climate. It's not unusual to have some -20 degrees. A lot of people do NOT have garages, their cars are parked in the driveways outside. And, the notion that most Americans drive less than 40 miles a day, that is completely false in my area. Many people drive an hour just one way to work which would be 40-50 miles one way. And there is a huge environmental impact to mine what is necessary for these batteries in addition to the waste of dead batteries and what to do with those as well. And, we do not know what the environmental impact is to use electric cars on such a mass scale. So, personally I do not favor them.

Nearly 100% of the materials used to manufacture the battery can be recycled. Infact the largest raw material for lithium ion batteries is projected to be from dead batteries and not through mining in the future.

https://youtu.be/xLr0GStrnwQ

[Fishindude77]

Nearly 100% of the materials used to manufacture the battery can be recycled. Infact the largest raw material for lithium ion batteries is projected to be from dead batteries and not through mining in the future.

https://youtu.be/xLr0GStrnwQ

Yea, kinda .......
The plastic cases and components will be landfill waste just like the majority of plastic items are today. It's way more costly to salvage, clean, sort and recycle that material into new product than it is to simply use virgin material.
Has to be a viable market for recycling to work. I own properties in two different states that have so called "recycling programs". They set recycle bins in the communities at strategic locations for concerned citizens to put; glass, paper, cardboard, metal, plastic, etc. in under the guise of "mixed recycling". What the good citizens don't see is that those containers go straight to the landfill and dumped. Meanwhile the county remains eligible for grants, etc. because they can claim they have a recycling program.

[Singuy]

Yea, kinda .......
The plastic cases and components will be landfill waste just like the majority of plastic items are today. It's way more costly to salvage, clean, sort and recycle that material into new product than it is to simply use virgin material.
Has to be a viable market for recycling to work. I own properties in two different states that have so called "recycling programs". They set recycle bins in the communities at strategic locations for concerned citizens to put; glass, paper, cardboard, metal, plastic, etc. in under the guise of "mixed recycling". What the good citizens don't see is that those containers go straight to the landfill and dumped. Meanwhile the county remains eligible for grants, etc. because they can claim they have a recycling program.

Okay I feel like this is a strawman argument, about as same as saying ev batteries will die after 2 years because just look at my Dell laptop.

However there are many challenges to recycling and must be done in an economical and environmentally viable way which is being innovated right now.

[james.hendrickson]

I guess one solution might be to make longer extension cords.

Texas - I wanted to take a moment to respond back to you on this.

It seems like you don't like the idea of electric cars in general, but think about the issue from a broader conservative perspective. If you like and value free markets, why not let the free market respond to consumer needs for environmentally friendly vehicles? This way you preserve freedom of choice, you prevent inefficient federal and state government solutions and you harness the productive wealth building capabilities of capitalism.

So, if you're conservative capitalist...what's not to like here?

[corn18]

It's just as easy to hack the power grid as it is to hack a pipeline. That'll wipe the smug look off the EV pundit's faces.

[TexasHusker]

Texas - I wanted to take a moment to respond back to you on this.

It seems like you don't like the idea of electric cars in general, but think about the issue from a broader conservative perspective. If you like and value free markets, why not let the free market respond to consumer needs for environmentally friendly vehicles? This way you preserve freedom of choice, you prevent inefficient federal and state government solutions and you harness the productive wealth building capabilities of capitalism.

So, if you're conservative capitalist...what's not to like here?

I'm not sure how anyone got the idea I don't like EVs. I actually owned a Chevy Volt for 3 years and it's probably the best car I've ever owned. And I'ved owned a BUNCH of cars.

As I mentioned earlier, I still think the Volt design - EV first with gas generator back-up - gets us to where we want to go in terms of carbon emissions. Unfortunately the trend seems to be "100 percent EV or bust" and I think there's a lot of shortcomings in that philosophy for reasons already discussed in this thread. Our Volt got around 39 miles between charges. We filled it up I think 3 times in 3 years. It was an electric car 95+ percent of the time.

Now, one thing I do not subscribe to is the thought that human behavior can somehow alter the course of global warming (or cooling) in any meaningful way. So the whole carbon emissions deal doesn't mean near as much to me as it might to all of the climate change activists. And I'm not pointing fingers at them - they have a right to their opinion as I do mine. I just think we humans are not quite so powerful and influential on this great planet, solar system, and universe as we might think. We think a lot of ourselves. Yet after all of human history and all of the scientific and medical advancements, apparently we still don't know one day to the next whether a face diaper prevents the spread of viruses. But by golly, we know we can cool the planet by switching to EVs!

Oh, the best laid plans of mice and men. And those mice are always up to something new.

[Singuy]

I'm not sure how anyone got the idea I don't like EVs. I actually owned a Chevy Volt for 3 years and it's probably the best car I've ever owned. And I'ved owned a BUNCH of cars.

As I mentioned earlier, I still think the Volt design - EV first with gas generator back-up - gets us to where we want to go in terms of carbon emissions. Unfortunately the trend seems to be "100 percent EV or bust" and I think there's a lot of shortcomings in that philosophy for reasons already discussed in this thread. Our Volt got around 39 miles between charges. We filled it up I think 3 times in 3 years. It was an electric car 95+ percent of the time.

Now, one thing I do not subscribe to is the thought that human behavior can somehow alter the course of global warming (or cooling) in any meaningful way. So the whole carbon emissions deal doesn't mean near as much to me as it might to all of the climate change activists. And I'm not pointing fingers at them - they have a right to their opinion as I do mine. I just think we humans are not quite so powerful and influential on this great planet, solar system, and universe as we might think. We think a lot of ourselves. Yet after all of human history and all of the scientific and medical advancements, apparently we still don't know one day to the next whether a face diaper prevents the spread of viruses. But by golly, we know we can cool the planet by switching to EVs!

Oh, the best laid plans of mice and men. And those mice are always up to something new.

The reason why EV or bust is because of what you said. You used the car in EV mode 95% of the time, carrying hundreds of lbs of dead weight engine that requires maintenance, oil changes, gas recirculation, added complexity for close to being about zero usefulness to you. And if you were to extend that EV 39 mile range to 390 miles, that 5% becomes almost 0%. Also it's pretty well known that engines are a hazard to safety during a frontal crash.

Also it's pretty clear us Humans are capable of mass extinction on this planet. Hell we can change the weather tomorrow if every nuke is set off.

[TexasHusker]

Nukes and man-made climate change aren’t exactly the same thing. Just because we’ve invented things to destroy ourselves doesn’t mean we know that much. Pretty low bar.

[james.hendrickson]

Also it's pretty clear us Humans are capable of mass extinction on this planet. Hell we can change the weather tomorrow if every nuke is set off.

Singuy, I'm with Texas on that particular point. Atomic warfare and climate change have little to do with each other.

Also, the broader point here => "I just think we humans are not quite so powerful and influential on this great planet, solar system, and universe as we might think.", is entirely correct from a religious standpoint.

[disneysteve]

Our Volt got around 39 miles between charges.

My gut reaction to this was that such a small range would make it little more than a novelty and you'd be running on gas most of the time. But the more I thought about it, I realized that 39 miles/day, 5 days/week would be 10,000 miles/year which actually isn't bad at all. We'd end up on the gas engine frequently but at least the first 39 miles would be on electricity.

How is the range on the common hybrids today?

[Fishindude77]

Now, one thing I do not subscribe to is the thought that human behavior can somehow alter the course of global warming (or cooling) in any meaningful way. So the whole carbon emissions deal doesn't mean near as much to me as it might to all of the climate change activists. And I'm not pointing fingers at them - they have a right to their opinion as I do mine. I just think we humans are not quite so powerful and influential on this great planet, solar system, and universe as we might think. We think a lot of ourselves.

My thoughts also.
We think we have such a huge impact, then something like a major weather event, earthquake or volcanic eruption comes along and we get to see who's really running the show.
Want to do something good for the planet with immediate impact? Plant a tree or clean up some trash.

[TexasHusker]

My gut reaction to this was that such a small range would make it little more than a novelty and you'd be running on gas most of the time. But the more I thought about it, I realized that 39 miles/day, 5 days/week would be 10,000 miles/year which actually isn't bad at all. We'd end up on the gas engine frequently but at least the first 39 miles would be on electricity.

How is the range on the common hybrids today?

I don’t think hybrids today are a valid comparison, as they aren’t “electric first”. Rather, batteries will run the accessories at stoplights, and might propel the car a mile or two.

The Volt was almost purely an electric car, with a generator to keep the batteries charged if range ran low. So the generator didn’t propel the car, but rather acted as a portable power company in a pinch. We rarely put fuel in our Volt. I think the car makers should have stuck with this concept and kept improving it.

The “100% or bust” mentality is going to slow down full adoption of EVs by a decade or two.

[TexasHusker]

Singuy, I'm with Texas on that particular point. Atomic warfare and climate change have little to do with each other.

Also, the broader point here => "I just think we humans are not quite so powerful and influential on this great planet, solar system, and universe as we might think.", is entirely correct from a religious standpoint.

Just as a disclaimer, I didn’t mean my post to be a religious one, but more a pragmatic one.