Private and Public School

[dawnwes]

I provided REAL data! 62% of college grads pretty much wasted their time and money. When you add a completion rate of only 56%, only 1/4 college attendees ended up not wasting their time. So then if we add that 73% of majors are NOT utilized..then that means there's a 1 in 10 chance that a freshman who picked a social science major can graduate within 6 years, get a job that requires a college degree AND it's also in the chosen major's field.

Yes. college grads make more...but these numbers are more likely boosted by majors that can yield good returns vs HS students(since HS has no diversity...no one HS grad is more valuable in the job market than any other). Also the returns you get from being a college grad is still worth it if you go to a community college/state university. I don't know how from a mathematically standpoint can a brand name private university plus years and years of private school can justify that small increase in returns.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/30/5-facts-about-todays-college-graduates/

I have one child.

And again, I am NOT talking about money being everything. That's another argument all in itself. If you can pay cash for this expensive education then go ahead! I am pointing out how dangerous a college education is today. It was pretty important to pick the right majors before, but it's down right mandatory nowadays.

You saving up so your child can have freedom in their education preferences without consequences is a gift you are providing for your child. I am just arguing that from an investment standpoint, you probably can seek better return elsewhere. From a gift standpoint..you can't give your child anything better.

Unfortunately not everyone can afford to provide their children with such gifts because resources are limited.

#4 and #5 still point to college being a good investment. And I still firmly believe it is.

I think some of what you and I are saying is really the same.....college is important for most people, and you shouldn't go into huge debt to achieve that goal.

Where I differ is that I am not going to tell my kids what to major in. I have already told my son that attending the local 4 year school and living at home is the best bang for his buck, particularly when he said he wanted to major in Communications. I told him that he would need Grad school and we should spend the $$ for grad school and not undergrad.

And he is doing the early college program in high school and getting free tuition for the next 2 years at the community college. When he took the exam to get in, he got almost a perfect math score and didn't do as well in English.

He is now looking at Math type majors as a possibility. Should he want something like Engineering, we will be looking at possibly more expensive schools, although I will say our goal 3 year school is making a name for itself in engineering too, so we will see.

But ultimately, if your child wants to major in Art or Basket Weaving and wants to attend Stanford and you have the resources to do so, really, who am I to care what you do with your money? We personally don't have the resources to fund that for our family.

[disneysteve]

Only 27% of grads get a job that's related to their major. This study excluded professional degree recipients such as lawyers, MDs, pharmacists, etc.

Also 62% of grads get a job that doesn't even require a college degree.

I just took a moment to read that article. A couple of thoughts:

1. As you mentioned, the data doesn't include people with graduate degrees. That's not a minor detail. I can tell you from personal experience that among the 210 people in my medical school class, there was a broad range of undergraduate degrees represented. Sure there were a lot of bio and chem majors but also English, history, psychology, business, etc. Pretty much any major you can think of can end up in med school as long as they get their required science courses. And many of them didn't do it straight from college. They worked in other fields for some time and then entered med school. The average age first year was 27 meaning at least 6 years out of college.

2. This survey was done in 2010 at the depth of the recession. There were millions of Americans unemployed and underemployed at that time regardless of their education background. I'd be curious to see if those numbers are different today or 5 years from now.

3. The lack of close match between degree and job is really irrelevant. As I said, what most jobs require is a degree, not a degree in a specific field. Even the author, a journalist for the Washington Post, mentions that his degree is in math.

62% of college grads pretty much wasted their time and money.

That's really not what the study says and I think it's a big leap to come to that conclusion. Just because during horrendous economic times and sky high unemployment a lot of people were working in jobs that they were probably overqualified for (whatever that term really means) doesn't mean college was a waste. Plus I'm sure a fair number of that 62% went to state schools, had scholarships, etc. I don't think getting a college degree is ever a waste of time. It might be a waste of money or money not well-spent but that doesn't make the experience any less valuable.

[disneysteve]

I just looked up the average student loan debt. Last year, it was $35,000. The standard rule of thumb is that you shouldn't borrow more than you expect to earn in your first full year of employment. With that in mind, $35,000 probably isn't all that terrible. According to a different site, the average starting salary for a college grad in 2014 was just over $45,000. So at least on average (and I know averages can be deceiving) students really aren't borrowing crazy amounts. Some are for sure, but as a whole, the numbers aren't really out of line.

[Singuy]

Steve, I think we are talking about two different things here. This thread was about private vs public school. I have been making a case against private school (grade school and university included). I would say most students end up in community colleges and state schools so 35k borrowed vs no college degree is not the main focus. Your child, if left without you bank rolling her, will end up with 150k worth of student loans after interest because she goes to a private university. 150k is no longer a small amount as an investment. Getting a return on 35k invested is not hard, but good luck having a social science degree and 150k worth of student loans.

From my first reply to this thread, I was arguing that spending a total of 600-700k over the lifetime of a child's education because of private school may not be worth it. The result you get on this money vs another child with similar character maybe the same...except one child had 700k invested and the other child had only 150k invested(assuming both ends up in professional school).

[disneysteve]

This thread was about private vs public school.

Yes, we did somehow get off topic onto the college conversation. Sorry OP.

As for college, if our daughter didn't have us backing her, she absolutely wouldn't be attending the school she's at because the money wouldn't be there to pay the bills. She'd be at community or a state school or somewhere where she could live at home and commute.

[dawnwes]

Yes, we did somehow get off topic onto the college conversation. Sorry OP.

As for college, if our daughter didn't have us backing her, she absolutely wouldn't be attending the school she's at because the money wouldn't be there to pay the bills. She'd be at community or a state school or somewhere where she could live at home and commute.

This thread was started 3 years ago, so I am quite sure the OP chose a school for her kids and may even be considering college by this point!

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Nope barely starting kindergarten.

But singuy, basically I think a lot of people have more a problem with telling their kids what they can major in.

I think steve and dawn and myself see college as a learning experience and potential to get a job. If the job is a teacher or newscaster, i'll suggest the cheapest possible route. I won't tell my kid NO don't go into communications or elementary education because it pays "Crappy" and you aren't returning on my investment.

I'll say hey if you have a plan for your degree and that is something you are passionate with great. Let's come up with a plan for how to accomplish your goals in a financially sensible manner. Maybe 2 years at CC and 2 years a university. and live at home. Or go where you get a free ride.

What if my kid wants to be an engineer and got into great schools but the local public university offers a free ride? I'll suggest even with an engineering degree maybe they consider free money.

I think it's not in many people's natures to dictate what your kid will study. But it's much easier to dictate I will pay $x for 4 years and I hope you are considering what you will do with the money.

[disneysteve]

I think steve and dawn and myself see college as a learning experience and potential to get a job.

it's much easier to dictate I will pay $x for 4 years and I hope you are considering what you will do with the money.

Exactly. I would never tell my daughter what she should or shouldn't study in school. That's not my decision to make.

It was my decision how much to save for college and how much beyond that to contribute. Our savings will run out next year. It won't carry her through all 4 years (unless my income changes which is possible). The rest will be largely on her.

[Singuy]

Maybe I came off as "you go study this or ELSE death!" but we all know that's not very realistic.

Just like teaching or influencing our children with good financial sensibility, I believe it is also our duty to educate our children about career goals, cost of education, and different paths everything leads.

You see this quite often..parents hoping that their children can one day become a doctor and kind of indoctrinate the idea into their children from early age.

I often see too many parents could care less...let their child step into an university of their choice(no matter the price) and just let them roam free..so they can soul search and find their ways. How is this any different from not giving your child a clue about finances and expect them to be responsible with money in the real world?

My plan for my daughter is a full ride plus a free house (after obtaining a job)if she majors in A,B, C, or D...or she can pay for her music art history degree all by herself after the initial instate college fund is used up. (this is under the assumption that this 18 year old kid actually understands the gravity of financial freedom vs debt). If my child is mature and decides that 500k worth of incentives is not good enough to give up music art history..then perhaps she really has a strong passion and can make something out of herself with that subject.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

But Singuy you just said "A, B, C, or D" majors or your DK gets nothing pretty much.

You still are dictating. I know the others feel the same it doesn't matter what they pick and I think Steve and Dawn are guiding their children financially as we talk about here. They just aren't forcing their kids to go into "High earning" careers. I feel they are educating their kids on different career options and paths, I just think that you can't accept that parents can guide and help their kids without forcing career major's a, b, c, or d.

You basically can't understand why anyone would pay for anything other than a, b, c, or d. And if we do pay for anything else why? We should just invest the college savings for another purpose.

I don't see it that way. I see it as helping my kids find who they are and giving guidance but not forcing them to do something they don't want. Doesn't work.

But also what will you do if your kid says I want to be an accountant? Will you say that's not high paying enough? Or is it on the A, B, C, D major? What if your kid says I want to be a vet? Or I want to be a geologist? Or I want to be astronaut or astronomer? Or worse yet, what if they say I want to teach? I love french and want to be a high school french teacher? Or music teacher?

Or I love english and want to be an english teacher for high school? One of my best friends was a high school english teacher and my aunt. They picked it. Wanted to do it. My aunt did it cheap, my friend not so much.

But her parents paid so she did walk out debt free. She taught for 20 years before staying home with kids and loved it. Wants to go back after kids are older and no childcare.

So are they forgiven for not picking high salary careers? Or my newscaster relative? Would you pay for communications if your kid told you I want to be a newscaster? Like my relative? And she got a job being a gofer at the station then moved up? I heard from my aunt it paid something like $12/hr starting in oregon but then she got promoted. But even now 10 years later I think she makes $50k? Or something like that doing the news (her dream).

Would you consider her worthy if she was your kid of having the free house? Or is it not worthy because she did what she wanted and got a job and supporting herself but it's not high paying.

[Singuy]

But Singuy you just said "A, B, C, or D" majors or your DK gets nothing pretty much.

You still are dictating. I know the others feel the same it doesn't matter what they pick and I think Steve and Dawn are guiding their children financially as we talk about here. They just aren't forcing their kids to go into "High earning" careers. I feel they are educating their kids on different career options and paths, I just think that you can't accept that parents can guide and help their kids without forcing career major's a, b, c, or d.

You basically can't understand why anyone would pay for anything other than a, b, c, or d. And if we do pay for anything else why? We should just invest the college savings for another purpose.

I don't see it that way. I see it as helping my kids find who they are and giving guidance but not forcing them to do something they don't want. Doesn't work.

But also what will you do if your kid says I want to be an accountant? Will you say that's not high paying enough? Or is it on the A, B, C, D major? What if your kid says I want to be a vet? Or I want to be a geologist? Or I want to be astronaut or astronomer? Or worse yet, what if they say I want to teach? I love french and want to be a high school french teacher? Or music teacher?

Or I love english and want to be an english teacher for high school? One of my best friends was a high school english teacher and my aunt. They picked it. Wanted to do it. My aunt did it cheap, my friend not so much.

But her parents paid so she did walk out debt free. She taught for 20 years before staying home with kids and loved it. Wants to go back after kids are older and no childcare.

So are they forgiven for not picking high salary careers? Or my newscaster relative? Would you pay for communications if your kid told you I want to be a newscaster? Like my relative? And she got a job being a gofer at the station then moved up? I heard from my aunt it paid something like $12/hr starting in oregon but then she got promoted. But even now 10 years later I think she makes $50k? Or something like that doing the news (her dream).

Would you consider her worthy if she was your kid of having the free house? Or is it not worthy because she did what she wanted and got a job and supporting herself but it's not high paying.

Sorry I think you missed where I wrote "after the instate tuition funds are used up". My daughter's college is already prepaid. Tuition is paid for if she goes to a state university no matter what she studies.

I just will not pay for her room/board/field trips/graduate school/private university tuition, out of state tuition, or that free house (well instate prepaid will pay for some of out of state tuition and private school tuition). She still gets a free house if she actually find a career and proves me wrong btw (but she wouldn't know this). I will also eliminate her student loans if it's reasonable.

Btw, any major that can yield a career(like accountant) is FINE! She doesn't need to make 6 figures! She just needs to NOT work at a MCD with a college degree is all I am asking for. My wife's cousins all ended up with a psychology degree. One decided to become a cop (for 3 months and then quit..went back to school for IT and now makes 6 figures) and the other sits at home and twiddle her thumb. My other friend with an accounting degree got a job instantly!

In fact her choice includes the top 50 occupations in the USnews ranking. She can do any of that. It is the parent's responsibility to make sure their children is out there LEARNING how to catch a fish..and not there to "have a college experience"...unless that's your main purpose.

[TexasHusker]

I can't help but wonder is private school worth it? I am in an affluent area and parents here spend a lot of money on their kids. I am not in the majority nor did I ever think this possible. But I have to know does anyone on this board send their kid to private school k-12? If so how much did it cost? Yes. About $600 per month per child.

Currently the average preschool where I live is $30k for motessori and other "prep" preschools. Then $30k for k-5 and $40k 6-8 and $45k 9-12. That's pretty steep OK...

Then I find out that on top of this these private school parents are paying for private tutors all summer at $120/hr (I looked at tutoring), tons of coaching, etc. Somethings' wrong with that picture...summer is for camps and swimming pools...

How do people afford this? They must make stupid money.How much money do you have to be making to afford this? $250k? Is that enough? More like $500k?I wouldn't pay that kind of jack if I made a $ million a year. Go find a neighborhood or suburb with good public schools - they are out there.

Hope that helps!

[dawnwes]

Sorry I think you missed where I wrote "after the instate tuition funds are used up". My daughter's college is already prepaid. Tuition is paid for if she goes to a state university no matter what she studies.

I just will not pay for her room/board/field trips/graduate school/private university tuition, out of state tuition, or that free house (well instate prepaid will pay for some of out of state tuition and private school tuition). She still gets a free house if she actually find a career and proves me wrong btw (but she wouldn't know this). I will also eliminate her student loans if it's reasonable.

Btw, any major that can yield a career(like accountant) is FINE! She doesn't need to make 6 figures! She just needs to NOT work at a MCD with a college degree is all I am asking for. My wife's cousins all ended up with a psychology degree. One decided to become a cop (for 3 months and then quit..went back to school for IT and now makes 6 figures) and the other sits at home and twiddle her thumb. My other friend with an accounting degree got a job instantly!

In fact her choice includes the top 50 occupations in the USnews ranking. She can do any of that. It is the parent's responsibility to make sure their children is out there LEARNING how to catch a fish..and not there to "have a college experience"...unless that's your main purpose.

And if she wants to become a counselor or therapist, is she allowed to get a degree in psychology then?

[Nutria]

And if she wants to become a counselor or therapist, is she allowed to get a degree in psychology then?

If it's in a 529 or UGMA, there's nothing to stop the girl.

Anyway... if her parents aren't divorced, alcoholics, abusive, etc she most likely won't want to.

Also, you just don't get "a degree in psychology" to become a therapist. You get at minimum a Masters, and preferably a Doctorate. And even then you earn peanuts unless you luck out into therapizing rich fools in NYC or LA.

[Butterscotch]

Anyway... if her parents aren't divorced, alcoholics, abusive, etc she most likely won't want to.
.

WTf? That's a pretty ignorant observation.