Make a big life decision for me, please!

[syracusa]

Sorry if this is offensive, but to me, this paragraph you typed just reeks of jealousy of these moms. It sounds like these moms are probably very happy doing all of the above mentioned things. Who cares if the families don't have high-demand jobs, lots of savings, or huge incomes? There are far more important things in this life. If the wife is joyful with her position in the family home, then that joy spreads forth unto her husband and children. Whereas if the wife is working her butt off and taking care of the children's schooling, housecleaning, and cooking from scratch to the point she is unhappy, then those feelings also spread forth unto her husband and children. Let's be real now - wouldn't you love to be in their position and be able to spend more time with your family, doing activities you enjoy, joining clubs or teams you fancy, volunteering your free time, etc? Criticizing them for enjoying scrap-booking (oh the horror), volunteering at their child's school, or exercising makes you come across as envious and resentful of their free time.

No, I wouldn't feel like I have the right to do all this super-relaxed lifestyle if I knew we spend everything we make, if I knew I would have to start my kids in life with mountains of debt because I wasn't able to pay for their college...and if I knew we have to pack up and move as soon as husband loses job. The families I am talking about are nowhere close to "independently wealthy", they are just largely irresponsible.
One of them recently told us they spend 10,000 dollars a month, nothing for savings - basically what he makes. He makes quite a bit and they spend EVERYTHING. The wife stays at home.

So do I take it from you that the SAH female's contribution to the family nowadays boils down largely to "not having bad feelings spill over onto the husband and the kids"? Seriously? Should the man have the right to say that he has "bad feelings spill over onto the wife and the kids" for being forced to be the sole provider and for having the entire "provider" burden onto his shoulders, all while she walks the dog and glues butterflies?

No wonder, all of these young men on the dating market nowadays run screaming in the night if they don't sense the potential partner is 100% independent and with serious job prospects. I know this from my sister who is on such "market" right now; the male mentality when it comes to expectations from partner has changed dramatically because of economic conditions.
Unfortunately, women didn't understand they must change too, as we all have been enslaved, not just the males. When you live hand to mouth, you can't afford to walk dogs at home all day long, glue butterflies on walls at school and just spill sparkly vibes of happiness onto husband and children. Oh, yeah, don't forget to put that ribbon in your hair too! They really can't afford these "vibes", yet they feel like it is their God given right to have them.

Then again, who cares if children are constantly uprooted, dragged all over the country in search of the next job, and never allowed to learn what it is like to stay put and form any significant friendship or relationship? As long as SHE is relaxed and happy!

While the rich did a fantastic job enslaving the population at large, feminists did an even better job enslaving the men. Only the NEW MAN seems to be waking up now. Many learned that under the circumstances, it is better NOT TO marry than marry. And if you marry, you'd better make sure she will pull her weight in the market.
Gone are the butterfly days...and many young women with "volunteerista" dreams are in for a rude awakening.

[syracusa]

I know you have been living in the US for a long time, but it sounds like there is still a bit of culture clash going on. I am on the other side of the pond, going on over a decade in Europe, and there are still things here that annoy the crap out of me, but I need to accept that things are done differently here -- and either live with it or make myself miserable.

That said, many of the reasons we chose to remain in Europe are what you have written about -- we want to have a comfortable life/work balance and enjoy the best of both worlds -- jobs we find challenging, while still having time to enjoy family life and not just rush home to get the kids fed and in bed. But lets be honest here, it isn't just about work it is about attitude, the attitude here is that home life should be relaxed and enjoyed. My husband's boss has walked out of huge conferences he organized because he has to go pick up his sick kids from school, setting a precedent that this kind of thing is totally OK. And it is. Where we would relocate to the US, I think we would really struggle to find the situation we have today.

Also, having grown up in an American suburb that sounds a lot like where you are living, you have to understand that a lot of it is about facade. You want people to think you are leading this lifestyle, whether or not you actually are or are enjoying it. There are always going to be those who go above and beyond. But, that doesn't mean you have to. Just like one of the previous posters said, your kids are either going to be the ones that thrive academically or they thrive at something else. And all the support in the world cannot change that. I am not a big fan of this new role of parenting to do absolutely everything for your kids to make them a success--- that means many kids are not learning any personal responsibility, a key factor for success, in my book.

Again, you seem to be really caught up in everything you need to do for everyone else and what everyone else is doing. If I were you, (and I am not) I would take a step back and try to figure out what it is exactly I want and what would make me happy --- because it seems in all your posts this is what you are searching for. Then cross off everything else on the list and focus on those things as much as I can. Is it money that makes you happy? Security? Time with family? Sure it would be nice if you could have it all, but most of us find that something needs to be sacrificed at some point. You need to find what you are willing to let go of.

Thanks. Agree with everything you said. If we could find jobs in Europe, I would have this house packed in about 12 hours top and the next day my rear end would be flying over that darn Pond like no tomorrow. I have been meaning to cross back for over a decade. Unfortunately, all of our efforts to find something there have failed. Europe is a place of connections, local relations, and "who you know" - and to try to get a job from across the Ocean when they have so few jobs there already and all are reserved for the "locals"...is complete insanity. We have tried for years and it turned out to be just that: an exercise in futility.
I am a pretty good professional but I am not an International Wonder in my field, so Europe is hardly begging to have me there. Others they have there can do the job just as well as I can. As for husband, he is so specialized on an American-specific industry that he would literally have nothing to do there.
This is why we are still in these American suburbs, surrounded by exactly what you said: tons of facade and a sack of irresponsibility. We have noticed that most Americans (including many immigrants who arrive here and feel the need to adapt to the culture) live way beyond their means, and that includes the act of keeping the woman at home to do largely nothing and just be "happy". Blue-collar or service industry families live in neighborhoods formerly destined for professionals, and professionals have moved into palaces. All this on debt, not on personally created wealth, mind you. As for the Rich, they brought the Heaven down to Earth and now they live THERE.
We learned that if we try to find a neighborhood with individuals with similar life experiences, education, etc... we need to be in at least a 500,000 house in this area, probably more.
We are, of course, not doing such an insanity.

The trick really is to try to pay the house off asap, live frugally, put together some capital and then finally be able to show the finger.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

syracusa it does sound like you reek of jealousy. Not all SAHM are broke, uneducated, or independently wealthy. I am one and I know many. Some struggle financially but they feel it important to stay at home. Others are very comfortable.

I will give you four very different examples, first mom, her husband is a pathologist and makes $500k/year and they are secure period. Family money to boot. Mom has a phd.

Second mom recently turned 43, 2 kids, and they live on a tight budget, but she once told me and I hold this to be true "I worked for over 20 years, saved while single, we live in the home I bought while single, I don't want to miss a moment of my kids childhood. I deserve it because I saved my money so one day I would have the freedom to work or not or retire early. I married late, never knew if I would have kids, so I just lived simply and so did my husband." I think it's a statement from the heart. Computer web designer 2 kids, they live in a 2 bd 1000 sq ft condo that she bought over 15 years ago for not much more than her husband and hers annual income individually not jointly. Hence they can afford to live and save. She'd love a bigger home but it's not in the cards right now.

Third mom, "i'd rather struggle now and enjoy my kids then miss out on it." Computer programmer who is choosing to not work right now and struggle a little but they make it work. They too live with 2 kids in a 2 bd condo, they are younger and have one car. But they make it work.

Fourth mom (me) I waited to have kids until we were financially ready. I finished my these 6 months after my first daughter so we never experienced life on a dual income. I have had job offers $75k but I like staying at home for now. We don't live extravagently and we've saved all our lives. I prefer to think I am giving my kids me instead of possibly a free college ride. Maybe it'll still happen I don't know, but I am trying. Do we have savings? Yes. Are we as ahead as a dual income couple? Probably not. But whose to say with daycare costs and how much less we'd take home after taxes? I think we come out ahead by me staying at home and my husband agrees.

We are 33 and 35, we put down 20% on our home, and have paid off another 15%, we have saved for retirement over $350k, 6 month EF cash, and another $75k in a taxable account. College we only have $10k saved. But I think we are on track to provide for our retirement and help something with college maybe not everything but something. My DH makes $125k in HCOLA, but we bought a home that worked on one income 7 years ago. Hence as our income as grown and our mortgage has gone down by refinancing, we are able to save more. Every year since 2006 when we started working we saved the maximum in Roth IRA and 401k. We maxed out our ESPP as well at 10%.

I know many moms have commented that we must be well off for me to stay at home. Yes but I drove a 99 corolla until a 9/2012. We have the townhouse that is small and we bought a long time ago.

Sometimes people choose to make different sacrifices. By the way we live far from our families. My parents live around 18 hours on a plane away and his around 8 hours. So we have no one and we do it ALL ourselves. Europe is closer to me than my parents are. So I get living solo with kids COMPLETELY.

I gave birth by asking a neighbor to watch our first kid at 1 am because my mom hadn't arrived yet to help us. I made it to the hospital with 20 minutes to spare. We don't have much time out together because we are solo parenting.

So don't judge SAHM. You don't know what sacrifices or circumstances allowed them to not work.

As for numbers we bought a house more than $500k, we make now I am not sure but I know my DH grosses $125k. We put down our 20% and have been paying on our townhouse. You make $72k and he makes $98k. What do you really bring home after taxes and daycare? I'd really look at the numbers. Less income = less savings needed because it's all proportionate.

Granted part of the problem is your ages and savings.

[Gailete]

Syracusa--

The more I read your thread and see your comments, the more angry and jealous you sound. You look at others lifestyles and complain about them. Other's lifestyles aren't any of your business. How one family decides to live is their own business and unless they are hitting you up for help constantly none of your concern. You are complaining about your miserable life while you spend more on groceries than our mortgage is. You save more than what we have to live on for an entire month. So in my eyes you would be rich, but I don't envy you at all as you sound miserable. Most of the burden is what you have put on yourself--cooking from scratch, extra tutoring for your children that you do because hubby 'can't', helping out at your kids schools, etc. Let hubby learn to cook some and pick up his share of the housework or hire a maid/nanny type person like I recommended before. Your husband earns a decent living so I assume that he is smart enough to coach your children in their schoolwork yet you say he can't do it. Why not? Because he can't do it to your specifications? Perhaps it is time to lower the bar on a lot of what you do and quit trying to be wonder woman. You seem to angry that other woman don't choose that same role for themselves that you have chosen, but perhaps they have chosen a better path for themselves. Calm down and rethink your life. If your husband is supportive of you quitting your job, then perhaps you can go for it and then spend some time walking the dogs or playing tennis and finding out the great benefits of fresh air. But above all, quit being so hard on your husband and others and their life philosophies, and above all quit beating yourself up and making yourself nuts with all the things that you 'have to do'. I was a working wife and moher and never once helped out at my kids school other than helping supervise one field trip to the zoo. My kids survived and graduated with honors (even the autistic one!)and the schools didn't collapse. If things like that are too much for you, don't do them, nobody but you are forcing yourself into doing them.

Take a deep cleansing breath and relax.

[syracusa]

OK. Thanks for the opinion on choosing option 1 or 2. Otherwise, it is evident that discussion of people's "choices" against the backdrop of larger socio-economic realities that affect EVERYONE, is not something most people can handle.
The reality remains that most Americans, happy or not, continue to live WAY beyond their means and this is a FACT backed up not just by anecdotal evidence, but also by hard numbers well known worldwide.

Regarding our "irresponsible" eating worth 700 a month for a family of 4.
How about we switch food budget with housing budget and put it all in perspective? I wonder how most Americans would feel if people in other parts of the world barked at their "NEED" to have so many rooms/space per family member?
Really? They need 3-4 bedrooms, living, dining, basement, 2-3 bathrooms, backyard children are supposed to play in but never do...etc, when you could easily share a 2-3 rooms dwelling (rooms not bedrooms!) with your husband, children, a pair of in-laws, as well as some uncles and aunts thrown in the mix for maximum budgeting?
Try THAT level of savings!

So as long as Americans "need" and budget for those extravagant-by-world-standards housing arrangements, they don't get to wag their finger at people who "dare" to spend a more normal percentage of family income on food, simply to avoid eating the plastic and the junk that has turned the US into a champion of chronic illness.
Just a thought.

[Gailete]

I think the problem that I see is you are saying one thing, but you yourself are living in a totally different way. If you were doing this: "when you could easily share a 2-3 rooms dwelling (rooms not bedrooms!) with your husband, children, a pair of in-laws, as well as some uncles and aunts thrown in the mix for maximum budgeting?" and supporting them all with your good jobs and income then that is one thing, but I saw nothing in what you have been writing that supports it. You complain about the American way of living, bashing it as much as you can, but you are more living what you term "the American way" than I am. Your looking and judging the American way by what you see in your neighborhood is looking at things with blinders on. Most of the people I know don't live like what you describe at all. Granted many Americans live beyond their means, but others are working very hard to live below their means and save what they can, yet I suppose that you would find something to complain about in how they are doing that.

Our comments do not imply that we can't talk about socio-economic topics, but it is hard when you are saying one thing but obviously not living it. You don't seem to want less in your life but seem to think that we all should all want less. It is though, the American Way, that is allowing you and your husband to earn the kind of income that you do and live the life that you want to.

[Mjenn]

OK. Thanks for the opinion on choosing option 1 or 2. Otherwise, it is evident that discussion of people's "choices" against the backdrop of larger socio-economic realities that affect EVERYONE, is not something most people can handle.
The reality remains that most Americans, happy or not, continue to live WAY beyond their means and this is a FACT backed up not just by anecdotal evidence, but also by hard numbers well known worldwide.

Regarding our "irresponsible" eating worth 700 a month for a family of 4.
How about we switch food budget with housing budget and put it all in perspective? I wonder how most Americans would feel if people in other parts of the world barked at their "NEED" to have so many rooms/space per family member?
Really? They need 3-4 bedrooms, living, dining, basement, 2-3 bathrooms, backyard children are supposed to play in but never do...etc, when you could easily share a 2-3 rooms dwelling (rooms not bedrooms!) with your husband, children, a pair of in-laws, as well as some uncles and aunts thrown in the mix for maximum budgeting?
Try THAT level of savings!

So as long as Americans "need" and budget for those extravagant-by-world-standards housing arrangements, they don't get to wag their finger at people who "dare" to spend a more normal percentage of family income on food, simply to avoid eating the plastic and the junk that has turned the US into a champion of chronic illness.
Just a thought.

Again, I am not a huge defendant of the American lifestyle, but at least where I am in Europe I see a LOT of the same behaviours you have mentioned here -- and we have not been hit by the crisis - our economy is still strong. In other regions, they have been hit by the crisis for a lot of the behaviours you have mentioned.

Where I live, the average cost of a house is starts at 500,000 dollars - most families earn about 120,000 dollars per year give or take a little, but not much. People my age, mid thirties, most often have mortgages of, on average, at least 400,000 and often more - with no fixed interest rates (at the advice of all of the experts) and the max you can fix your mortgage for is 10 years at a relatively high interest rate. Banks discourage this (of course). This is why I refuse to buy a house here right now. I think that is INSANE and that prices here will regulate down as they have everywhere else where the set interest rates too low.

Most of these overpriced houses are, as you described, tiny and only have 2-3 bedrooms - which as someone who often works from home, has family guests, and 2 kids, does not make any sense to me -- at least if I am paying 500,000 and up.

Most people I know do not have savings because they know there is a strong safety net - unemployment insurance, health care, etc and they will not have to shell out huge amounts in an emergency. After watching my husband spend a few months unemployed and collecting 80% of his salary, I understand them better now, but we have an EF and are able to easily deal with pet health issues, car issues etc. before insurance kicks in -- many of our friends are not.

Most of our friends have every single technical gadget completely up to date. The nicest cameras, the nicest phones, the nicest computers, designer clothing -- and they earn the same thing I do. Instead, like you, I go on trips to the USA -- I don't judge their spending habits and I hope they do not judge mine.

Don't get caught up in 'the grass is always greener' point of view. Each country I have lived in has had its advantages, and I have chosen where I live because it offers the most advantages for my family in our situation (though you are completely right about finding a job, I wouldn't advise anyone to move here without a job first). But I could certainly point fingers at the local population and call them stupid. Instead I just make my choices and move on.

[syracusa]

Do you mind if I ask where you are in Europe, Mjenn?

All in all, the situation you are describing with the 400,000 mortgages and the non-fixed interest rates there sounds terrible to me. I can't help wondering what country this is. Maybe UK? I do know that many people in Europe prefer to rent than buy, because rents are way lower than house payments there.
At least in the US you can lock in a fixed rate now. Husband oooh-s and ahhh-s over how wonderfully low fixed interest rates are now, historically speaking, but even at this historic low I am cautious and skeptical as it is clear you pay an enormous amount in interest over the entire life of the mortgage. I remember when interest rates were 8% here in the US. Lord, what a rape.
Then again, I come from a European country which has been identified as THE MOST ADVERSE TO DEBT country on the entire continent. At some point, a few years ago, this country had the lowest debt from all EU countries. Many people there seem to prefer to live with tons of extended family in a tiny apartment than go in debt for a mortgage, which they see as a bank rip off. I DO agree it is a bank rip off, but when you want to live large and independently, western style, you must apparently accept to be violated like this.

Last summer when we went to visit, I went to a hairdresser and she was telling me - super-happily ! - how she is so lucky to live with her husband, 2 daughters, in-laws and husband's brother and wife in a 4 room apartment (this is the kind of culture where you learn someone's entire life story + intimate details after 60 minutes of first-time interaction with said someone).
I thought I was going to freeze in place, and when I asked whether she considered getting a mortgage and moving with her husband and children only, she said: "Do you think we're crazy? Those people who get into such debt and then go live on their own without any help are insane. This way we can all help each other, we have no house payment of any sort, I have always had built-in child care, this has never been an issue for us...we always have cooked food ready because we take turns, if someone has not covered something, another one will automatically step in...we never have any problems".
I then asked her how exactly do they sleep, and she proceeded to tell me who was staying in what room.
Basically, every couple had a room: her and her husband one room, the old in-laws another, the young in-laws another, and the last room was for one of the girls, because the other still slept with the grandparents. Of course, one of the rooms acted as living-room during the day and bedroom at night. Then there is the kitchen, a tiny hallway, and this is it. I know this kind of apartment because my parents have one exactly the same right across the street.

I do think that if people can get along and can make it work with extended family, this is a fantastic way to beat the slavery system, be it living small, modest, and yes - crowded too.
If I had my family here, I sure as heck would fit them in any of these enormous-by-world-standards American houses - but unfortunately, I don't have most of them here.
We ARE thinking of buying a house where we could have my sister stay with us and help with the mortgage a bit.

Of course, the Powers-That-Be are now trying to change the local mentality and are busy preaching to the new generations all about "me, myself and I", "independence from family" (incidentally not from the bank) and the jazz. They need to get them in line with all the other Global over-spenders, over-consumers, and over-mortgagers. But from what I understood, it is not going that well because families there are still pretty tightly-knit, parents expect to help their adult children a lot, and all in all they still prefer to huddle together than throw themselves in the arms of Daddy Bank.

As for getting caught up in the grass-is-greener thing: I am not - because I know exactly how green each part of the grass is on every side - at least based on MY notion of "green". There is no question that I would prefer living in Europe, not only because my personal philosophy fits better with the more collective-social-reciprocal help outlook of Europe, but simply because all of my family (minus sister) is there, and I certainly feel that it is our duty to help our parents when they will need the help. Unfortunately, getting a decent professional job in Europe was not in the cards from the beginning; so both my sister and I got caught up in endless grad schooling abroad, as there were no other decent paths to take at home at the time we finished school, and we did not want to become complete burdens on our parents either.
We ended up in the US, not for any "American Dream" BS, but because we had no other choice and this is where we ultimately found a source of income. It is, indeed, easier to get a job in the US - but this is also because once you get it, they make sure to work you to death. Hardly a "Dream".
In Europe it is much harder to get a good job, it works via connections, but once you're in, you're kind of "cool for life". We could not be "in" there, so we are slaving away here. Simple as that. Yes, this is also because I do believe that we owe our children stability (staying put), a good education, and good chances in life, which start with NOT beginning life buried in debt. After all, I did make both of them using a computer-generated ovulation chart. :-))))))
So no confusions over the green of the grass. You just do what you gotta do. :-)

Again, I am not a huge defendant of the American lifestyle, but at least where I am in Europe I see a LOT of the same behaviours you have mentioned here -- and we have not been hit by the crisis - our economy is still strong. In other regions, they have been hit by the crisis for a lot of the behaviours you have mentioned.

Where I live, the average cost of a house is starts at 500,000 dollars - most families earn about 120,000 dollars per year give or take a little, but not much. People my age, mid thirties, most often have mortgages of, on average, at least 400,000 and often more - with no fixed interest rates (at the advice of all of the experts) and the max you can fix your mortgage for is 10 years at a relatively high interest rate. Banks discourage this (of course). This is why I refuse to buy a house here right now. I think that is INSANE and that prices here will regulate down as they have everywhere else where the set interest rates too low.

Most of these overpriced houses are, as you described, tiny and only have 2-3 bedrooms - which as someone who often works from home, has family guests, and 2 kids, does not make any sense to me -- at least if I am paying 500,000 and up.

Most people I know do not have savings because they know there is a strong safety net - unemployment insurance, health care, etc and they will not have to shell out huge amounts in an emergency. After watching my husband spend a few months unemployed and collecting 80% of his salary, I understand them better now, but we have an EF and are able to easily deal with pet health issues, car issues etc. before insurance kicks in -- many of our friends are not.

Most of our friends have every single technical gadget completely up to date. The nicest cameras, the nicest phones, the nicest computers, designer clothing -- and they earn the same thing I do. Instead, like you, I go on trips to the USA -- I don't judge their spending habits and I hope they do not judge mine.

Don't get caught up in 'the grass is always greener' point of view. Each country I have lived in has had its advantages, and I have chosen where I live because it offers the most advantages for my family in our situation (though you are completely right about finding a job, I wouldn't advise anyone to move here without a job first). But I could certainly point fingers at the local population and call them stupid. Instead I just make my choices and move on.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Why do you ignore the many people suggesting your reek of envy and explaining that there are many people on this board and in real life who are not living the way you think Americans live?

Most of the SAHM I know have kids sharing rooms because they choose to live simply. They have savings, they are fiscally conservative. Unlike you I live in a VERY HCOLA without a doubt and we manage fine.

Off the top of my head there are many people on this board who have SAHP who live on half or less than what you and your husband make. Are they in debt? Are they struggling? Are they enjoying their life? I think they are mostly all debt free and seriously enjoying their lives.

It's all about priorities. I know Disneysteve his wife stayed at home with their one child, and Monkeymama has two kids and a stay at home dad. I think momoffive has five kids and makes like $60k! There are a lot of people making less and staying at home.

I don't get why you can't understand how people stay at home making less money. How they can afford to live.

I bet if we met you'd judge me in a heart beat to be in debt, too much house, because I am 33, staying at home with 2 kids. Never mind that I have more in savings than you, etc. You'd think I was 33 without a clue, but I know my DH and I are on track for serious savings by the time we're 40.

You have no clue about peoples true fiscal situation and you certainly can't tell by their lifestyles. Many people are frugal and have saved a lot early in life. Many people bought homes years ago and their mortgages are a tiny fraction of their income. They have no debt, they drive simple cars, etc.

Life isn't black and white, it's grey. Just because you think people can't afford their lifestyle unless you see their tax returns, etc you won't know what they really make and save.

And many people in HCOLA live 2 kids per room. Most of my SAHM friends have 2 kids in one room.

[bjlabelle]

What do you mean Caffeine? In what form do you give the kid caffeine...'cause I can't start having coffee with him, right?


we did do coffee, but there is a rockstar gum that has caffeine, maybe something in the health food store, but i was broke and had no money for his meds, and a lady i worked with was adhd and she was the one who told me about the caffeine. The pharmacist agreed so that is what we did.

[syracusa]

we did do coffee, but there is a rockstar gum that has caffeine, maybe something in the health food store, but i was broke and had no money for his meds, and a lady i worked with was adhd and she was the one who told me about the caffeine. The pharmacist agreed so that is what we did.

Cool! I'll look into it. :-)

[syracusa]

Why do you ignore the many people suggesting your reek of envy and explaining that there are many people on this board and in real life who are not living the way you think Americans live?

For the first part of your rhetoric question: I don't know...take a wild guess. Perhaps because I am not keen on lowering myself to that level of conversation.

For the second part of your still rhetoric question...since you're insisting with the aplomb of someone who loves to pick a fight: nowhere in my posts did I talk about people ON THIS FORUM.
I made no references to "people on this forum" because I find them to be extremely irrelevant to what I was describing. First of all, "people on this forum" are hardly representative of the general American population. This is exactly why they are on this forum to begin with. In fact, they are quite different from the American mainstream. The very fact that they hang out a lot here indicates that they are very money-conscious, into frugality, saving, etc. Which is wonderful - except that they are NOT who you are going to encounter when you look around you randomly, on a typical day.
I can assure you that the people I mentioned, and whose financial behavior IS representative of the mainstream psychology, is nowhere close to the examples so self-righteously presented by some posters here.

The families I was talking about (which would be most American families) are neither the proverbial pathologist making half a million a year, nor the obsessive savers-since-craddle some mentioned. Such individuals are rare period. If they weren't, the US would not be in the top 3 countries with the highest household debt in the world. But it is. We know this not only because national and international statistics on personal debt SAY SO, but also because many of these families I am talking about, and whom we know personally, have often given out information that clearly betrays their spending habits and overall irresponsible behavior. As hard as this may be for you to process this info, no - I am not envious of the type of families I talked about simply because I would never fancy being in their position: always ready to move for the next job, living with the knowledge that their children will have to take out student loans and will begin life in debt up to their eyeballs (it probably seems normal to them), saving very little compared to what we're saving, feeding their children lots of processed junk, and assuming that schools will educate their children just fine as long as they are "parentally involved" by gluing butterflies at school. I would never be able to live like this - as a result I cannot possibly envy such lifestyle.

Do I envy the very rare humans who live on piles of invested wealth without ever having to move a finger, never need to make any compromises, and are virtually never at any risk except some kind of act of God? Sure! Who wouldn't?
It's normal - and those who pretend otherwise are just a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.
We would all want to be like this, we all cannot be like this, and this is perfectly OK.

I can assure you though I am hardly envious of the type of family I described and which is visible in the American middle-class mainstream.

[UnknownXV]

I envy their situation. Not them.

I think people have lost perspective on how good we have it, relatively speaking. Relative to how things were 200 years ago. Or how bad things are for billions who barely can feed themselves, have no clothes, or even roofs over their heads. Yes it's, society isn't perfect. Yes, there are very bad men at the top contorting the economy making it harder for normal people like us to get by. Yet, we're all still alive on this beautiful world. We're all well fed with a roof over our heads with warm showers and warm beds with big houses and TVs and all manner of comforts... you have a family too. Cherish what you have instead of being jealous of those who have more.

If you find your life is stressful, you have the right to try and change that; or not. But don't complain too hard, because there are millions if not billions of other people who have it worse.

[KTP]

Oh, totally!

And who knocked the leeches? ...

But are you going to be the kind of leeches I'm talking about?

If you guys busted your behinds your entire lives to put together some capital that will finally allow you to retire and rest your achy bones...then no, you will not be "my kind" of leeches.
You will just be tired people in need of some well deserved rest.

No, not really. My wife was smart and picked software engineering at an ivy league plus didn't goof off in high school (was valedictorian). This allowed her to get a real paying job instead of majoring in art history and working at Starbucks.

We goofed off for about 10 years, but in our early 30s decided to get serious about saving. Just passed $1 mil in investments at age 43 and hopefully will retire in three years with about $1.5.

The leech aspect will be arranging our investments and living a modest lifestyle such that we pay minimum federal tax, no state tax, and qualify for subsidized healthcare.

[Mjenn]

I am currently based in Northern Europe, seen the same behaviours living in the UK, Denmark and Sweden. The only major difference is that where I live now there has not been a building boom, so there is no oversupply. But housing prices have gone up about 75-100% over the last 10 years. There is actually often too few houses in popular areas and few people own more than one home - if they do the other is a summer holiday cottage.

Also, most people do not amortize more than the first 25% of their loan. They pay interest for the rest of their lives - while insisting that they prefer being home owners rather than throwing money away on rent. This worked fine when the average house price was about 20,000 dollars, but now that people are borrowing such huge amounts, it spells pretty dangerous behaviour for me.

I would love to eventually own a home, but this is not the time and no I don't let it get to me, take it personally or consider my friends who have such mortgages stupid. It just is how things are done here.

From what I have read via my work, the only EU countries that have avoided this so far are Eastern European and Italy (which has its own problems) and they are slowly but surely catching up -- as rental apartments get harder to come by. But maybe I am wrong....

I am not sure where you are from.

Here, rentals are cheaper, but people still prefer to own. Also,there are a shortage of rentals and there is a long waiting list, so many people are 'forced' to buy, as there are few options. Rents are fixed by the government so not many private landlords who buy two houses and rent out one.