Make a big life decision for me, please!

[syracusa]

I would greatly appreciate the input of anyone who might be interested in playing this game with me. After reading the context, you could say: "I would do x" or "I would do y".
Please don't tell me that it is up to me do decide, or that no one can make this decision for me. My question is "What would YOU do if you were in my place"?

I am a 40 yo married woman, with two small children, 4 and 7, and extremely exhausted.
I have tons of grad degrees, I have spent long years in school, not because I am a "career" type of woman, but mainly because I had no other choice for a long time as an immigrant on a grad student visa - so I eventually had to make the best of it.
We are finally at a point where many things sound well on paper. Except it's just on paper.

My husband and I pull together a family income of about 170,000 dollars a year (NOT in a very high COL area like NY). We also have no debts of any sort.
We currently rent in an area that is pretty expensive due to top schools (1800 rent) but plan on buying a house in about a year from now.
So zero debts, 20,000 in kids' college account, 40,000 in my retirement account, 120,000 in husband's retirement account (he's 48),70,000 in liquid savings, mostly destined for a downpayment on the house.
Not impressive at our age, with 2 kids...but at least, not in debt.
We've had this family income for almost a year now.

The dilemma comes from the fact that I simply want to quit working full-time.

The reason why I currently work full-time is ONLY because I feel that I need to act as a safety net, second provider to my husband's largely vulnerable job. Not for fancy cars, granite counter tops or what not.
My husband has a job working exclusively from home now. He makes 98,000, I make the rest.
A few years ago, during the Recession, he lost his office job and we were forced to move cross country in a place we didn't want to go and where we hated it so much that we returned to our original city as soon as this became a crazy possibility (the company somehow allowed him to get back home and telecommute from here).

Having had this terrible experience in the past and having seen first hand that companies will throw you out in the middle of the street, small children and all, without blinking an eye......I swore to myself I would never let this happen to us again and fought to get a full-time position in my field, which is usually hard to get and pretty coveted, mainly because of the long-term promise for extremely high security.

I did - but now this is killing me.

As my job is pretty flexible (in that you can work a lot from home, without a set schedule, most of the times) yet it is very demanding, with large and difficult workloads... I ended up basically doing three big jobs at once:
- career (heavy as sh*t).
- household (including cooking from scratch and taking care of children's needs in every conceivable way, which includes volunteering at their "oh-so-great" school full of SAHM-s with way too much time on their hands).
- supplementary homeschooling - because, based on what I have seen, even the best of public schools don't teach crap, yet they test on A LOT, and then they use the results for placement, tracking children into "gifted" and "everyone else" aka plebeians.

In addition, one of my kids has ADHD and he is that type of extremely exhausting child that you need to stay on top of every step of the way.

My husband does help with housework (dishes, laundry, etc) but this is simply not enough. He doesn't know how to handle children's curriculum, neither does he know how to cook and just generally organize and stay on top of the household.
Besides, he is always stuck in our home office 8-5 as his job requires him to be "on station"; so I am always the one who ends up "on household duty" every time there is an interruption (do groceries, pick up children, give them lunch/snacks, volunteer at children's school, etc).
So my workload (just as full-time if not more than his) piles up... and I am increasintly left behind.

So I am torn between:

1. quitting and going part-time (with miserable pay and no benefits) and regaining some sense of sanity
2. continuing to do this triple job for the sake of providing the safety net I promised myself I will provide, given my hudsband's vulnerable job...(and given how much I hate these companies who lay off employees whenever it suits them because that's the "free market" way).

My husband has this job today, but tomorrow he might not - and it will always be like this.
Job security today is pathetic but in his field, it is 100 times worse than in most other white collar careers. In fact I have days when I am convinced this is not going to last much longer and another lay off is going to happen sooner or later.
It is extremely hard for him to find another job in his industry in our area which is the very reason why we had to move cross country in the first place.

At the same time, I absolutely refuse to move again and uproot the kids for a miserable job that will force us to live in the middle of nowhere again, surrounded by a mass of strangers.
I have been told that this is "the American way" and that my aversion to risk is too high and that this is how all these "provider/stay-at-home mother" families live: with the assumption that if husband loses the job, they are always ready to move to wherever the next job is".

In all honesty, this "American way" is 100% NOT my cup of tea. Just because I ended up marrying in this country does not mean I can change my ways and my identity to match the way people with a nomadic and uber-individualistic mindset live.
I am extremely close to my sister (who also lives in the area), we also have all of my husband's family here, children are used to their school here - and I care a lot about STAYING IN PLACE and being close to family, which to me is more than husband, kids and a pet (thankfully we don't have the latter).

I do not believe in people moving for jobs, I believe in people being able to find jobs where they are, and where they have good friends, family and some actual meaning and sense of belonging (yes, the European way).

Yet, without my job, we will place ourselves exactly in the kind of situation where we will have to move again if husband loses his current job.

You might ask whether we are saving enough from these 170,000 dollars we are currently making. We are doing our best, but all is going towards a down payment on the house.
I drive a beater, I virtually never buy any clothes or any luxuries, and our house is old, not updated, yet still high rent because of the schools. We also spend what I consider to be a tremendous amount on almost yearly trips to Europe - so I can see my family. The lattter is not negotiable.

Overall, we save about 3000-4000 dollars a month currently but this cannot continue unless I choose to put myself in an early grave from exhaustion.

So kindly tell me: should I quit or not?

1. If I quit - some sanity and a slightly slower pace of life will be regained (if you can even talk about such a thing in the US), but we will be pretty tight, given my needs to travel overseas; so we will have to forget about retirement, children's college, etc... plus, worst of all, I wil leave in CONSTANT FEAR that my husband will lose his work-from-home, too-good-to-be-true job, which, in all honesty, I can't see lasting for many years. At the same time, if I quit, I can't go back later because in my line of work, this would simply be a career killer - FOREVER.

2. If I don't quit - I will soon kill myself from overwork, which pretty much says it all.
Or if not myself, any resemblance of quality of life - FOR SURE.

Thank you for your input.

[sblatner]

Can I say I have been in your shoes? I had kids in 1995 and 1998, worked full-time, my husband worked full-time and he was in school for the first year of our first child's life. I hated my life, too. Luckily, I didn't make a huge salary and at least half of my salary was going to daycare so my decision was easier. I finally quit in 1999 to be a SAHM. I ended up starting a bookkeeping business which grew so large that my husband was able to quit his job and join me. We have been very lucky.

I wonder if you could hire someone to help you with the housework and cooking at least until you figure out what you want to do. It might cut into the amount you save each month but if it gives you some sanity, it would be worth it. This way, you are not making a drastic decision but are able to bring some sanity to your life while you are trying to figure it out.

Also, if you are really planning on buying a house, I wouldn't quit until after you actually close on the house. The higher income will make it easier to qualify for a mortgage.

Also, my husband was laid off back in 2002. We went through the same thoughts you are having about companies not caring. He was out of work for six months but luckily we live in the SF Bay Area and he was able to find a job before we ran out of money.

I guess my bottom line is don't quit on a spur of the moment decision. Lay out a plan, figure out the money (budget, etc.) and save an emergency fund since it doesn't look like you have one.

I also am one to believe that life is short and if you are miserable, something needs to change!

[syracusa]

Thank you, sblatner.

Re: the emergency fund...well, out of the current liquid savings (70,000) some of it can be emergency fund. We will not put EVERYTHING liquid down on the house anyway. We just continue to save.

I have thought about hiring help for housework, but I just don't think it would help much because most of it involves things that only I can do, especially those related to children's school. We already have someone coming every two weeks to just clean the house (not organize it, or putting things away, that I still need to do myself, as they won't do it).

But cleaning every two weeks is far from taking care of the household needs. There is always the cooking, setting up the table and cleaning up, constantly picking up after kids (yes, yes, we expect them to put toys away but there is only so much they end up doing), and mostly children's school-related needs. I realized that to help them do really well in school today, I need to be on them A LOT.

I definitely would be happier working only part-time, but the price of such a daring move is scary to me.
Unlike you, I have no business idea in mind, and I would not quit my job simply to be burdened with another kind of work-for-money, including owning a business.
Apart from the fact that I have zero entrepreneurial spirit, I need to free up time to focus on the house and the children, not another kind of work - as I do not hate my profession per se.
I just simply don't have time for it - because the family and household are more important to me than any profession, even one that I don't dislike at all.
If I had no children and had to work, I would pick the profession I am in right now.

My dilemma is that if I quit, there is no going back to this career that is very hard to get into in the first place. What's worse, this is the ONLY kind of work-outside-the-home that I can tolerate. Everything else (which would be an office job for me) I would loathe beyond belief.
I would much rather work the land with my own hands, like they used to do in medieval times, than be in an office job. But there's no chance for that nowadays. . ...

[sblatner]

I have friends who work a lot and have someone cook for them three nights a week. At least those nights, you wouldn't have to worry what was for dinner. Also, maybe have someone come in every week to clean. Also, I don't know what day your person comes but we found that makes a lot of difference. We used to have someone come on Friday but then by Monday, the house was a mess. We started having someone come every other Monday to clean and now the house stays clean most of the week. It isn't much but it helps our sanity.

I know I didn't answer your question about whether to quit or not. It is difficult to say as it sounds like your husband's job is very precarious.

Also, I almost wrote in my earlier post that you should start a small business on the side and have it grow so then you could quit but realized while I was typing that another thing to do is NOT what you need :-).

I guess I really don't have an answer but I want you to know that I feel for you and understand where you are coming from. Our kids are so important and we only get one chance to do it right and it is difficult to be torn in so many directions.

[syracusa]

I have friends who work a lot and have someone cook for them three nights a week. At least those nights, you wouldn't have to worry what was for dinner. Also, maybe have someone come in every week to clean. Also, I don't know what day your person comes but we found that makes a lot of difference. We used to have someone come on Friday but then by Monday, the house was a mess. We started having someone come every other Monday to clean and now the house stays clean most of the week. It isn't much but it helps our sanity.

I know I didn't answer your question about whether to quit or not. It is difficult to say as it sounds like your husband's job is very precarious.

Also, I almost wrote in my earlier post that you should start a small business on the side and have it grow so then you could quit but realized while I was typing that another thing to do is NOT what you need :-).

I guess I really don't have an answer but I want you to know that I feel for you and understand where you are coming from. Our kids are so important and we only get one chance to do it right and it is difficult to be torn in so many directions.

Thank you, sblatner, that's sweet.

[lhkorn99]

I would set a goal for an amount of money I wanted to have in the bank to feel comfortable and once I reach that goal I would re-evaluate if to quit or not.

By setting a goal - perhaps saving X money, and being able to quit in a year for example, you might feel better that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Mjenn]

OK, as someone who is in the opposite situation living wise - living in Europe, but also in a similar boat with everything else (Despite having great access to cheap daycare, flexible work hours, etc... it never does seem to be enough to get thru everything you have described--- even in Europe) -- here is my advice -- take it as you will

1) Set up a list of where your money is going. You don't have a lot of savings for having earned 170,000 for a long time with no debt. What are you spending on? Where are your splurges? Are these things you will miss?

2) Are you setting your expectations too high - yes, you have to keep the kitchen clean, and don't want clutter, but does the house have to always look perfect? Can you section off areas and do a little bit here or there? We recently got a robot vacuum cleaner because we could not keep up with the dirt of having toddlers and pets. We run it when we aren't home and our house is now 80% cleaner than before. But we don't sweat the small stuff.

3) Are you pushing your kids too much? I'm not in the states so the attitude towards homework is different here, but with all of the hours you put in at school, do you HAVE to do this? Do you WANT to do this? What would happen if you didn't? Are your kids really at risk for failing state tests? I know back in the day when I went to school state tests were a joke. You cannot be the only working Mom, do they really expect you to do the same thing as SAHMs? This would be where I would draw the line and just say no. I don't do bakesales or raffles, I also don't volunteer at the school - I work. And I am not the only one.

4) Make a schedule - Your kids are old enough to have a chore schedule - if you are not happy with the way your husband takes responsibility for the house - make a list of everything you think needs to be done and how often, then set up a chart.

Mostly in reading your post it seems to be you don't want to cede control --- If you want to quit your job I would do a big budget check. But if you want to stay at your job because you seem to like it, you need to give up control over something in your life and allow someone else to pick it up. The world won't end. I, for example, do not really like the way my husband cleans the bathroom. BUT I like it more than cleaning bathrooms myself, so I am more than happy to let him take on that chore. We each have very different ways of cleaning - but have adopted the 'I'll shut up if you shut up' mentality, which means, I would much rather have assistance than dictate how the work should be done. In the end we have a relatively clean home, time with the kids, home-cooked organic unprocessed food on the table, and a little bit of time in the evenings to sit back and relax.

[Like2Plan]

You say you don't need your income in the first part of your post, but in your options you say you could quit, but you wouldn't be able to afford retirement and college (etc). I think you are still searching for an answer for what will work for you.

I agree with Mjenn in that you don't want seem to want to cede control. I'm not sure if this is personality driven or due to a higher than normal anxiety level due to the move to a less than desirable location that you had to make and/or your spouse's job changes. Either one of those events (move or job change) can cause high levels of stress.

Neither one of your choices seem particularly appealing, I would be searching for another option (though I haven't discovered a way to have it all.) What was your situation before your DH lost his previous job-were you happy back then?
Maybe building up an emergency fund to last a year (or longer) would give you more security to be able to rely on your DH's income alone. Maybe making some changes in the household. Could you do do ahead cooking on the weekend? Would you consider delegating some of your household jobs? Maybe an extensive look at the budget modeling it with and without your income (taking into consideration tax savings and work related expenses). Maybe a combination of several things.

[syracusa]

1) Set up a list of where your money is going. You don't have a lot of savings for having earned 170,000 for a long time with no debt.

It hasn't been for a long time, just a year and a few months.
And for a family that has been through a short-sale and a relocation cross-country, back and forth, exclusively on money out of pocket, I think we have tons of savings.
My husband argues that there are extremely few Americans who would even dream of saving 3000-4000 dollars a month. Again, we live modestly except some things such as trips to Europe, which eat up a lot of our savings yearly, and we also probably spend a bit more on food monthly than the average American household. Around 700 dollars for a family of four. Otherwise, we are tight. And again, no debts.

2) Are you setting your expectations too high - yes, you have to keep the kitchen clean, and don't want clutter, but does the house have to always look perfect? Can you section off areas and do a little bit here or there? We recently got a robot vacuum cleaner because we could not keep up with the dirt of having toddlers and pets. We run it when we aren't home and our house is now 80% cleaner than before. But we don't sweat the small stuff.

I may or I may not, it depends on who you ask. I do not vacuum in between cleaning service visits, I don't have the time. But I do need to keep up with putting away the stuff around the house that is constantly being used. You are right that I absolutely hate clutter spread around everywhere.

QUOTE=Mjenn;343349]
3) Are you pushing your kids too much? I'm not in the states so the attitude towards homework is different here, but with all of the hours you put in at school, do you HAVE to do this? Do you WANT to do this? What would happen if you didn't? Are your kids really at risk for failing state tests? I know back in the day when I went to school state tests were a joke. You cannot be the only working Mom, do they really expect you to do the same thing as SAHMs? This would be where I would draw the line and just say no. I don't do bakesales or raffles, I also don't volunteer at the school - I work. And I am not the only one.
[/QUOTE]

Do I push my kids too much? I may or not, again it depends on who you ask.
If you ask Tiger Mom...no, not at all.
If you ask the average American family who believes that getting quickly through the school-assigned homework is where it's at, and then you can let the kids do whatever without any supplementation of what is done in school....then yes.
I expect my kids to excel in school, not just pass the state tests. Without my help, they wouldn't do it on their own at this age. My son has been so far, but only because I have been on his as*...especially with his ADHD condition, which requires major hand holding.

4) Make a schedule - Your kids are old enough to have a chore schedule - if you are not happy with the way your husband takes responsibility for the house - make a list of everything you think needs to be done and how often, then set up a chart.

We have all that in place. Everything my husband does is well appreciated and I am fine with the way he does it 100%. Things like ironing he does it better than me, I would never question the way he does it. :-)
Between the two of us though, it's simply not enough. My kids do have a chore schedule, but it I would lie if I said they can significantly contrtibute to the maintenance of the household. My 7 yo ADHD son can barely remember to take his brains with him when he leaves a place, let alone to provide significant labor force for the household. He does sort out clothes after laundry is done, but he still needs his father to accompany him. My 4 yo - forget it.

[/QUOTE]

[MonkeyMama]

I think the reason you feel "stuck" is there is little thinking outside the box here. You have presented an either/or plan.

Some thoughts in the middle:

--Spouse should be picking up more slack. So he can't help 8-5, but he can learn how to cook and help you out more in the evenings.

--Plan B- hire someone to help you with household duties. Childcare, cooking, or cleaning. A little of everything. Whatever is most helpful. If spouse finds himself unemployed, he needs to pick up the slack in those instances.

I think these situations are generally impossible, unless help is hired or unless one spouse works less.

--Do you have to work *forever*? Save 100% of your income for a few years until you have a better exit strategy. It seems rather backwards to me because small kids are so exhausting, but I have several friends who are finding the financial stability to quit their high-paying jobs now that their kids are about 10 years of age.

--Search out better public school options when you buy a home. If you live in a bigger city there should be more options. Dig deeper than just the shiny facade and expensive neighborhoods. That is the problem - some of the more "high test score" schools do overly focus on test scores. No doubt about it. Having relatives who teach in those districts, I Would never pay the insane house premiums for those schools. There are plenty of A+ schools that aren't as test obsessed. They may not score as high and make the top lists, but will be a better experience for your children. Our kids attend a public school that I do not believe we could beat with private school tuition. Though we are very hands-on with the education, in general, we don't have to be with where our kids attend school. 99% of the people I know, in contrast, judged their schools by tests scores. None of them would have bought a house in our neighborhood with our "crappy schools."

--Read Mr. Money Mustache blog. I have to plug him because I can relate with my experience with a SAH spouse. People try to wrap their brains how we gave up half our income. HA! We pay less taxes, we have less expenses. We *hardly* gave up half our income. We just didn't see the point for my spouse to work full-time for pennies. This blog is good for all the shades of grey in life; more outside the box thinking. You might find it useful and get some ideas - just google it.

[JoeP]

You are 40, with 2 small kids, in a complex and busy life situation (I was exhausted just reading your post)...I would do what you can to SIMPLIFY your life as soon as possible. No matter how hard you try to be even keeled and steady, kids pick up on your mental state and that influences their lives.

Personally, I'd take you current situation and plunk yourselves down in a lower cost of living area, get jobs you like, and enjoy the lack of pressure. You did the hard part of getting out of debt, saving for retirement/college...so why are you not enjoying it?

[I-78 Commute]

I think if you formulate a blueprint with a few more specifics you may be able to really come up with something that'll bring you some peace.

The things that stuck out to me:

1) You're renting but wanting to buy a house in a year.
2) You're full time but you really want to be part time.
3) You're worried about your husband's employment. Like is he going to have that job the minute you decide to go part time?

I think first thing to do is take a deep breath. Then after you're relaxed a little bit just break down each big decision.

If you want to buy a house in a year working full time is going to go a long way to getting you to a larger down payment and having money to put into the house once you're in it (it's usually more expensive to own but that can vary depending on the type of house you buy vs what you were renting.) Work can sometimes be more fun when you're working towards a personal goal like a house (and you specifically have an action plan of how much money you're saving that is specifically for buying a house.)

It's easy to get caught up in the grind when you feel like you're just getting hammered day after day with no end in sight. If you plan for an end goal it makes it a lot easier to get there. If it's more important to you to cut back to part time than to buy a house in a year then maybe look at how much of an emergency fund will really satisfy you so that you don't feel like your husband losing his job would be as big a disaster. A more sizable emergency fund that can float you for 6+ months or more might help you be a bit more comfortable with working part time. Also part of the plan can be finding out if you can go back to full time if he does lose his job (at least until he can find another job.)

The more specific the plan you put together the better you'll feel I think. Good luck.

[DayByDay]

Hmm..Most of my husband's family members and mine have lived in the same area for many generations. It's the same with many of our friends. I wouldn't go as far to say that moving all over is the American way.

I would do what I need to do for my physical, mental, and family health and adjust the rest. I would make it a priority to live on much less so that when financial bumps come along it is much less scary. I'd realize that I'm not entitled to top schools, high rent housing, owning a house, permanent employment by any company, or spending a tremendous amount on almost yearly trips to Europe and would, therefore, plan accordingly.

[sandrark]

I agree that your thinking here is constrained. And that control is part of your dilemma. You seem to expect that you alone will solve the issues of time management and exhaustion that you note. I have a few questions for you:

1) Are you in a university town?

2) Do you have a spare bedroom?

3) Can you cheaply rent a spare bedroom to a college kid to help with cleaning and cooking and childcare?

4) Are there any family members who'd be happy to cook 2 extra meals a week for money?

5) Can your DH be sent through housekeeping school or cooking school so that his help is up to your standards?

6) Can you downsize the kids' things to reduce clutter?

7) Do you have a place for everything, and a routine to get it put away? In my world, no one sits down for dinner until there's a 10 minute cleanup party in the kitchen and living room.

8) Do you actively meal plan, shop from sales, and have a recipe bin so you can easily delegate dinner?

9) Can your DH do a 9/80 schedule, or a 4/10 schedule, so that one day a week HE is the one on kid duty/child care/errands?

10) Can you distribute the household chores in a way that gets some of them off your list and onto his?

I work and commute 12 hour days. DH works from home a lot. He has had to pick up more of the household stuff, now that I'm not around as much. However, every other Friday is my "chore day." I go to Costco on the Thursday night drive home, and then that Friday is for vet calls, haircuts, grocery store, oil changes, hardware runs, etc. Dh takes care of pet food, litter boxes, trash and recycling, watering the yard, paying the gardener, maintaining the sprinkler system, cleaning the gutters and windows and deck, replacing bulbs, etc.

It works because we clearly know who "belongs" to which chore, and we negotiate when bumps arise - like me being sick as a dog the three weeks before Xmas. DH did meals, grocery shopping, and Xmas shopping/decor, while I hacked up a lung on the couch.

In my experience, you've reached the point where, IN SOME INSTANCES, your time is worth more than your money. You need to be more intentional about your time usage, and open to the idea of hiring some of the best "bang for the buck" helpers.

Best of luck!

[UnknownXV]

First of all, I just wanted to note that you're doing very well already.

Your income is great. If not guaranteed, it's still exceptional even if it were sliced in half. Saving $3,000 a month or more is virtually unfathomable for the majority of American's who don't even have $3,000 in lifetime savings (it's insane)

Now, that said; your problems seem to be overwhelming because they are chaotic thoughts moving around in your head. You need to lay out the specifics on paper.

First of all, can you let us know what your current budget is? It may be possible to give you more options than the two you presented if we can cut out some things from what you're spending. While you're saving a hell of a lot, with your income, you're also spending a hell of a lot as well. More than you probably need.

The goal is to reduce your household financial burden in order to make you less stressed over your husband possibly losing his job if you went part-time.

Also, you talk about buying a house, this can be a good thing. I will suggest something you might not really have considered.. maybe buy a more modest house than you were thinking about? For $100,000 you can get a very decent home that would be more than enough for your family. At least for now, while you sort things out. Imagine that, no more $1,800 a month flying out, only property taxes and potential maintenance here and there. Again, more breathing room.