How would you consider this situation in the Boston area

[syracusa]

So I am only dreaming of a lower cola, but i know that if we do move to a lcola we would have a higher quality of life. My sister lives outside of atlanta in a house my parents have said is truly amazing. They also own a second home.

I wanted to abstain from commenting on this part, but it looks like I can't help it. I will throw in my 2 cents nevertheless, with the disclaimer that my views may indeed be BIASED relative to how mainstream Americans view life in general; also that I AM - like someone said - a FOREIGNER, and that my understanding of quality of life may be drastically different from what a majority of Americans understand by quality of life.

I lived in Atlanta for a decade. We never lived in a very large McMansion but we did live in a very elegant, brand spanking new, cutting-edge townhouse, about 1500 sqf, in the BEST location Atlanta could come up with. When we first saw the place, we just about fell in love with it and I remember getting major kicks thinking about how it will feel like living in such a beautiful (albeit not very large, by Atlanta standards) house.

I always liked the house - but let me tell you this:

Our house, in and of itself, added SQUAT to our quality of life in the long run. Of course, I'd always fancied living in OUR house if, by miracle, it could have been placed in an area where there is actual life nearby (in the US, this means HCOLA).

Comparing to where I grew up, Atlanta is a terribly provincial place with very few things to do, at the end of the day. When week-ends would arrive we would bang our heads against the wall trying to come up with ideas as to what to do, where to take the kids, what else is there to life above and beyond looking at our elegant construction.
There was basically "mall" and "small park nearby".
How long can you milk these options? For 10 years I missed being able to go to a pedestrian-oriented, lively place like crazy. I missed seeing people in the streets, plazas, a sense of vibe to the place, a SOMETHING that I was never able to find there even if we went downtown.

Downtown hardly offers any attractions except a couple of horribly overpriced spots such as aquarium and the zoo. It is certainly far from a magnet and few people seem to be interested in being there, outside of work week. There are some spots for "edgy"/"alternative lifestyle" populations, but this is surely not what I have in mind when I talk about a place with a vibe.

I have also talked to many people in MA (on a different forum) who swear by the QOL in the area, the kind the goes beyond living in a new McMansion. I have also spoken with some who made the decision to move from HCOL to LCOL and now regret it dearly, especially that it becomes very hard to do the reverse, once you are in LCOL.
I remember one guy on that forum, who had just moved from a HCOLA to Atlanta, freaking out about not having a place to step foot down.
He was going crazy over "where are the sidewalks!!???? Cars are running me over from all directions!!"

There aren't. You drive endlessly through dry suburbs to get to dry strip malls, get your stuff and return to the dear ol' TV screen. Repeat many times over. Then you die.

That being said, I know there are people who like to live in a big and comfortable house, watching TV for the rest of their days. If this is what QOL means to them (my sister-in-law is a perfect example), you can certainly have it in a LCOL area. Atlanta area is a good place to come to.

I am, by no means, trying to dissuade you from your dreams of living in LCOLA but do keep in mind that there is no FREE LUNCH; and particularly those going from HCOL to LCOL often find out, the hard way, WHY exactly the lunch is NOT free.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

No, but my sister has lived in SF and moved to atlanta. She commented on the QOL being from not stressing out about money. They save a lot more, food is cheaper, eating out is cheaper, everything is cheaper. You aren't "struggling". A lot of things are more expensive.

Sure you can go out in a HCOLA, but with what money? My DH and I don't go out often even before because when a beer is $10/beer um, how far does money go? One night one out is $100 or more.

Add in a taxi, club, etc? I had a medical student work with me this summer from Atlanta. He freaked at $10 beer versus $3-4 he normally spent. The entree out here is $15-20 versus $10-15.

It all adds up. Then you have the trendy "lifestyle". Go to a museum $20? What does it cost? Aquarium $20? Add in parking or train tickets and you are looking more at $30 for the day not including food per person. Ball game in Boston, average is $50-60/ticket, not to mention food and beer and parking. Basketball game? Hockey? Football? Unreachable. So TV it is. Other cities costs A LOT less to go to a game!

Yep QOL is definitely important. But when you have a house that is newer, less repairs.

Did I mention I have a friend whose house burned down in the area? His fireplace was too old and caught on fire, because it was "wood" the back. 1880s house. Took over 1 year to settle with his insurance to get money to rebuild. My neighbors, her mom and MIL had their homes burn down with old electrical wiring.

Don't forget shoveling out your car. Because most places don't have garages in MA because they weren't common when homes were built.

I am thinking of living somewhere nice that is MCOLA, like Seattle or Portland. Somewhere cheaper, but not entirely LCOLA.

[syracusa]

I think you are still seeing things through the lenses of a "dink" couple (dual income no kids). We virtually NEVER go out for drinks or to sports games in Atlanta.

I have never been to a sports game and if I died without going to one, I would not care less.

What I miss is an actual city to go to and walk in - FOR FREE. This is, in and of itself, a great experience for kids. Parks, boulevards, little plazas, sidewalks, window-shopping, museums to visit, a shore to walk down on, beaches, etc.

Atlanta DOES NOT offer those kinds of FREE experiences. Neither do other LCOL places. This is why they are "low".

But you do make a good point, when we buy, we will make sure it is relatively new construction. No 1800's structure for us, that's for sure.

[DayByDay]

Go to a museum $20? What does it cost? Aquarium $20? Add in parking or train tickets and you are looking more at $30 for the day not including food per person.

Just last week my husband and I were thinking of taking my younger son to the aquarium in San Francisco. Looked online at the prices...$25 adults, $15 child. Add in gas, food, and maybe souvenirs, and I knew it would be an expensive day. Because of the cost I changed my mind about going and decided to wait until he's a little older when I know he'll appreciate and remember it more.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Syracusa many of our friends live in the city with kids and TELL us how expensive it is. Going anywhere. Even window shopping, add in food, etc? One train ticket one person is $2, and coming from the burbs more like $5 per person. $20 one way for a family of 4, or parking $20 each.

Where do you live that museums are free? Not in boston they aren't free. I can name ever museum and price. MoFA is $20 a parent and $18 student. Family membership $175 or $200. Science Museum? $25/parent for 1 exhibit hall and you pay more for special exhibits. Basic membership is $75/per person and that doesn't include the extra halls. Aquarium? $20.

So where is the free things to do? Zoo? Cost money too. Then add in food, parking/public transit, where is your free day? Please don't say I'm a DINK, I have been out with people who live in those tiny 1 bd with 2 kids in the city!

And they mention they don't go to museums, exhibits, etc because it's expensive!

Catch a theater show? $50-60. Concert, symphony, Boston pops, ballet? More like $75-100.

I've been to them all at a discounted rate, but I don't have kids. I know my friends have taken their kids to the lion king, etc.

So you want to live 1 hour outside the city and think you are going to do more in the city than people who live in the city? Really? Fight traffic, weather, etc?

Trust me, I might be a DINK, but i'm not naive about cost of things. And when you see the prices of eating out one meal, you'll understand. Come for the weekend, stay one night in the city. Then one night outside 1 hour and see what it's like.

[reallyprettyhappy]

I think you are still seeing things through the lenses of a "dink" couple (dual income no kids). We virtually NEVER go out for drinks or to sports games in Atlanta.

I have never been to a sports game and if I died without going to one, I would not care less.

What I miss is an actual city to go to and walk in - FOR FREE. This is, in and of itself, a great experience for kids. Parks, boulevards, little plazas, sidewalks, window-shopping, museums to visit, a shore to walk down on, beaches, etc.

Atlanta DOES NOT offer those kinds of FREE experiences. Neither do other LCOL places. This is why they are "low".

But you do make a good point, when we buy, we will make sure it is relatively new construction. No 1800's structure for us, that's for sure.

I can think of one place in the US that would be PERFECT for you...Washington DC. It's the only place that I can think of that has all of that and all pretty much free to boot. Actually, I think you'd really like it there. You should see if there are any job ops for your husband there...might be a good compromise. And if you live on the VA side, the public schools truly are some of the very best in the country.

[PetMom]

This thread is fascinating about the details about our areas and how we live.

My comments:

Get into city employment (this may not apply in broke areas) - you will not ever get fired or lose your job (the standard joke is you have to kill someone to get fired). BUT, you can have your benefits limited and there could be a hiring freeze during bad times.

And that is what we are going through right now - bad times. The Great Recession along with some inflation.

Did you mention if possible what country you are from? Where you can work the land (thought I read that)?

I know there are some European countries that are having some bad economic times also - we are in a global recession.

The family comments are interesting of wanting to keep with the extended family - the shift from that here has been going on for decades. Many will/want to move for a better job or a new location.

There is a trend that Churches now list their Church as being a 'Church family' - meaning you get the extended family feel and socialization of a regular big family. The get togethers tend to be free or very low cost - pot lucks, plays, game night, etc. Just what big families do together.

And we gave up the museum years ago. Used to be free and we were all more cultured and edified because of it. Now the admission is ridiculous.

Guess a day at the park and taking a picnic basket would be free - but many would find that boring.

Some cities/suburbs are doing the 'town square' development that you refer to and are having exellent results.

I agree the sprawled out suburb where you only can go shopping or get fast food is limiting.

[syracusa]

I agree the sprawled out suburb where you only can go shopping or get fast food is limiting.

I understand what LivingAlmostLarge is arguing. I am very aware of that fact that when you decide for a day in the city, it will NOT be free regardless of where you live. Of course, you could make it free or almost free if you really wanted to. When we went to Boston we saw a ton of people with kids in parks in Brookline, or just walking in the streets, and taking in the vibe. They didn't seem to be paying anything doing that.

Good luck putting together a day like that in Atlanta.

Even if you know it will cost you something, it is nice to know there is an actual city to go to when you are willing to spend any money at all.
Atlanta doesn't offer such a thing. The few attractions there are - such as an aquarium and a museum - are AS expensive, plus there is nowhere to stop after that to just walk. It is a very dry downtown that seems to reject instead of attract people. Because of the terrible socio-economic segregation, you can FEEL the white flight phenomenon in the air - the inner city has a deserted feel to it because of that.

But again, many people don't mind living in quiet and dry suburbs, with only a few fast food places around. For someone who grew up in a pretty hubub-ish European capital, this lifestyle can be slow and pure torture. Whatever extra savings you will end up with are not worth it if you feel your life is being wasted in a Lord-forsaken place.

In addition, we know for sure we will NOT be retiring in the US. A HCOLA can be beneficial in the long run for someone who knows will retire in a LCOLA. In the long run, you end up with a larger retirement fund and more money from the house you will be selling when you get out.

[lifeisgood]

Coming out of lurkdom to post in this thread. Everyone has a different perspective. I will add some brief comments as a resident of MA. We are a family of four in the metro Boston area--we are about a 40-50 minute ride to Town, right inside of the 495 belt. We live in a modest, middle class neighborhood in a town with good schools. It is not a top tier town like Wellesley, Weston, Concord, etc. but is probably is the top 20-30 for MCAS scores, etc. I haven't kept track, honestly.

As far as what your money will get you, you can be comfortable in this area on 90K or so, but you will have to keep track of all your pennies. Our income ranges from 85K-90K and in order to save money, we have to try very hard. I write all my purchases down and I don't get sucked into paying for things I don't need. Now I may have different spending patterns than other people. I have student loan payments that others don't have. I like to eat really good food so my groceries cost $150-175/week (and I do 75% of my shopping at Market Basket!). But we don't have car payments and we drive older cars. We don't have childcare costs. I work part-time at night and spouse works in the day. You get the idea.

I probably will never leave New England. My spouse will never choose more $$ over living in this area. Family is here, we love the city nearby and the beaches.

So that is my perspective. But just some advice about the debate about costs of living near Boston. We always take in the museums in Boston every year on vacation weeks/summers. Via the public library passes. They are the best kept secret for anyone on a budget. This summer we went to the Aquarium for $6/person, parked near the Seaport at meters for $4. Next week I'm going to the Children's Museum for $2/person. December we'll go the Museum of Science for $8/person. And how about the Pawtucket Red Sox in RI for $6/person next summer. You get the idea.

If you are good at research, you can take in all the offerings. You just have to dig a little. And try Chowhound boston for good tips on eating out. Not every meal has to be expensive. Ethnic food, best kept secrets, etc. will keep you busy.

[syracusa]

But just some advice about the debate about costs of living near Boston. We always take in the museums in Boston every year on vacation weeks/summers. Via the public library passes. They are the best kept secret for anyone on a budget. This summer we went to the Aquarium for $6/person, parked near the Seaport at meters for $4. Next week I'm going to the Children's Museum for $2/person. December we'll go the Museum of Science for $8/person. And how about the Pawtucket Red Sox in RI for $6/person next summer. You get the idea.

I get the idea. And thank you SO MUCH for the tip. It is truly appreciated.

Your situation sounds similar to ours, and I completely understand the part about the high food bill. I would never try to save on that one too much, except by cooking at home instead of eating out, which we always do anyway. I often cringe when I hear about 400$ food budgets for a family of 4. I can almost picture the shopping cart full of everything but fresh fruits and vegetables. We spend A LOT on those, with the food bill often at 700$.

All in all, I have encountered more than my share of people who say the same thing about Boston (or other HCOLA-s, such as California): that they WOULD NOT exchange the quality of life they get there for more dollars left over in LCOL areas.

I sincerely don't think people in lower COL areas such as Atlanta end up with that many more savings in the long run, on average; but they probably DO consume more than those in HCOLA. This is simply because of the local, flashy mindset that ends up touching almost everyone to varying degrees. Shopping is the main "sport" as there is not much else to do. People end up spending a lot of time at the mall and we all know what happens when you live there. The attraction of the next great bargain is high to irresistible. Most people I know here have very large houses with very large walk-in closets which, you better be sure, they always end up FILLING UP somehow.

I must say I was shocked, when we arrived in MA, to see the difference in "look" between the typical southern and the typical New England real estate agent. The Southerners dress up like crazy and wear tons of jewelry and make up. The MA real estate agents - at least those we saw - were dressed VERY modestly.

[Ryder69]

I often cringe when I hear about 400$ food budgets for a family of 4. I can almost picture the shopping cart full of everything but fresh fruits and vegetables. We spend A LOT on those, with the food bill often at 700$.

Coming back out of lurkdom to comment on this as I found it a bit judgemental. Don't cringe for us - we eat VERY healthy.

I spend roughly $400 on my food (not including paper products, etc.) for 5 people and my cart is never filled with crap. I buy plenty of fresh fruits and veggies - I just make sure I buy what is seasonal, and when possible I shop the local farm stands. I buy in bulk when stuff is on sale (i.e. two whole chickens for $8), and make most meals from scratch. I also make my own bread, pizza crust, and "treats" when possible.

Believe it or not, you CAN make healthy, wholesome meals for less if you shop smart.

[syracusa]

Coming back out of lurkdom to comment on this as I found it a bit judgemental. Don't cringe for us - we eat VERY healthy.

I spend roughly $400 on my food (not including paper products, etc.) for 5 people and my cart is never filled with crap. I buy plenty of fresh fruits and veggies - I just make sure I buy what is seasonal, and when possible I shop the local farm stands. I buy in bulk when stuff is on sale (i.e. two whole chickens for $8), and make most meals from scratch. I also make my own bread, pizza crust, and "treats" when possible.

Believe it or not, you CAN make healthy, wholesome meals for less if you shop smart.

You gotta teach me then! Seriously. Because I do everything you say you do and we are not coming under 600 in Atlanta. This is good news though as this means there might be room there for more savings. I am just not sure this would work for us without sacrificing quality.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Don't eat meat. seriously it saves a bundle.

Life is good mentioned the 1 hours drive without traffic. Try the pike with an accident or no toll takers. Then it'll be 2-3 hours. Not to mention, if you live outside the city you have a better chance of snagging the "free passes" they don't have any available at the museums in the 10 miles of the city. I called this summer when i'd heard about it.

No one I know who lives that far out comes in after driving thtat route all week. Talk to people who live in the area you are looking at if they do. Also realize that MANY people in the area have never left or lived oustide of new england.

My DH and I have done both abroad and within the US on both coasts. I think thatmoney and QOL does matter. And in Europe and Asia the lifestyle is different. I liked it better but public transit and getting around is easier. Boston is okay, but not comparable for city living I think, especially for the price.

[Ryder69]

Honestly, it took me awhile to get into a groove. One thing that helps - DH works in NYC Monday-Thursday and eats on the company dime, so I guess I really only feed 4.5.

We have a separate budget for eating out - we do this once a month usually (hard to cart 3 kids around), and it is usually in conjunction with a trip into Boston. We have memberships at all the museums (they are a tax write-off, however small), and that includes discounted parking.

What started me on the home cooking kick was the desire to get rid of all High Fructose Corn Syrup in the house. I can't always control my kids' eating outside of the home, but I really wanted them to have better food at home. As I'm sure you know, this stuff is in everything - so home cooking was my only choice.

The best thing we did was get a chest freezer so that I could stock up when food was on sale. For example, turkeys are really cheap right now - $0.49/pound. I bought two. When chicken is on sale, I buy 4 at a time. A whole chicken for us ends up being roasted chicken for dinner, chicken salad, chicken tacos (with homemade seasoning), and I can usually get chicken soup too if I'm feeling industrious. At the very least, I keep the stock for when I make other stew-type meals, such as chili.

I buy King Arthur flour in bulk - sometimes we do a road trip to the mill, but I can also get it at BJ's. I put that in the freezer also. Sunday's are prep days - I will prep two loaves (one gets cooked, the other frozen), four pizza crusts (frozen), and if I am out, I will bake a batch of dinner rolls that get frozen after they are cooked. (My oldest loves these, so he'll grab one at a time from the freezer, often for a snack.)

I make my own pizza sauce - I'm still using up frozen tomatos from my garden, but I will use canned tomatos also which I stock up on when they are on sale. I throw in whatever veggies I have at the time so they don't go to waste - this week I put in portabella mushrooms and zucchini. The kids never know the difference. We buy mozarella in chunks when on sale and freeze it for later.

I work very hard to not waste any fresh produce. After trial and error, I know what we will eat in a week. For example, the kids eat fresh fruit every day, and I know that I can get 4 bananas, 5 pears, and a small bag of grapes, and that will do for a week. I always keep a bag of apples in the fridge also - they are still available at the farm stands, and pretty cheap even in the stores. I then supplement with other fruits as they are on sale - this week was strawberries. We have blueberry bushes at our house, and still have a ton in the freezer, but when out I will buy these sometimes also.

Same with veggies - if I have carrots left over from whatever dinner I made, the kids get carrot sticks for snack at school. They are still stuck on basic veggies - peas, carrots, beans - so I buy small amounts of broccoli, asparagus, etc. and try to get them to eat it.

I don't buy individual snacks ever - I use small containers and make up our own. Raisins, nuts, cheerios, etc. I also try and make granola bars, but not always. I get large containers of organic yogurt and mix in granola and fruit.

We aren't always perfect - every now and then my husband will blow the budget on good cheese and wine - but the kids like cheese and I want them to appreciate new flavors. And I don't completely deprive them of "junk" - I will get pretzels, gold fish, and occasionally chips. I just portion them out, they can't sit around with the bag.

I wish you luck with your move - I think you will actually enjoy Boston from the sound of it. Memberships are worth the $$ if you use them like we do. And we often go down and walk along the Charles river, or in the North End, just to experience the city.

[sofocused978]

You can rent for a lot less than $2250 close to Reading. Areas like Andover, Bradford, Methuen, Salem,NH are like 15 minutes from Reading. Less congested with nice schools. And like 25 minutes to Boston. I would never pay to live in Lexington, Quincy, Braintree, areas close to Boston where the prices are nuts.