Aren't the Big 3 a little hypcritical? thoughts on foreign cars

[kork13]

I'm not a hard core " buy american" guy but I live in farm country and see a lot of heavy hauling vehicles and do some myself. I can't think of the last time I've seen anything that wasn't a GM, Ford or Dodge. Farming's a buisness and if Toyota or Nissan or whoever made a better product, then that's what you would see. I can't speak for passenger vehicles but for those of us who really need powerful full sized vehicles, the american plants have it right. They have a lot of other problems but they have great full sized vehicles for those who "need" them.

I'll agree with this as well. They really do make the best trucks available, at least to my knowledge. Toyota, Honda, and others make "trucks", but they simply don't have the hauling capacity or rugged capability of their domestic counterparts. Ford and GM do a great job on heavy-duty trucks for the people who need them. What their downfall has been is to rely so heavily on those trucks--not everyone needs a full-size, heavy-duty truck.

I forgot the statistic, but a significant majority of Americans live in urban/sub-urban areas. In most cases, these people do not need heavy-duty trucks. They need passenger cars, but these companies have largely ignored that customer need. In the lack of any quality passenger cars from domestic producers, Americans have turned to both the Japanese (for primarily economical cars) and the Europeans (for primarily luxury cars). These are holes that the 'Big 3' dug for themselves, and they have been their own downfall. Congratulations to the Big 3--you all were too dense to realize that you were ignoring the needs of 70% of American families.

[maat55]

What would really be interesting to know is: how much a fully made car in america would cost, parts and labor.

[atomicrc11]

My family has only owned German cars. I went with a VW Jetta in 2004. So far I have put on 52,000 miles and have only done routine maintenance and replaced consumables (headlights once, a license plate light, tires at 50k). I made sure to get the best deal possible and got 0% financing. I plan on keeping the car for at least 10 years, hopefully more. When it comes time to buy a new car I certainly won't restrict myself to German cars, but if they have the same feel and quality of my current car I will certainly buy one again.

Also, I've noticed that the mid-size sedans are usually the most reliable in terms of the car and features. For example, all the new gadgets are put into the Audi A8/A6. Then they filter down to the Audi A4/Volkswagen Passat. Then by the time the features are made available in the Jetta the bugs are worked out. Same thing goes for the BMW 3 Series, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, etc.

[disneysteve]

My Camry is a 1998. I bought it used in August 1998 with 11,000 miles.

Yeesh.... How'd you pull that off? A 1998-model car was purchased new, got 11k miles sometime within 8 months, and was then resold to you? Was the previous owner a traveling salesman? And to resell it so quickly.... yikes....

It was a dealer demo model.

[jIM_Ohio]

What would really be interesting to know is: how much a fully made car in america would cost, parts and labor.

Union shop or non union shop?

[jIM_Ohio]

I'll agree with this as well. They really do make the best trucks available, at least to my knowledge. Toyota, Honda, and others make "trucks", but they simply don't have the hauling capacity or rugged capability of their domestic counterparts. Ford and GM do a great job on heavy-duty trucks for the people who need them. What their downfall has been is to rely so heavily on those trucks--not everyone needs a full-size, heavy-duty truck.

I forgot the statistic, but a significant majority of Americans live in urban/sub-urban areas. In most cases, these people do not need heavy-duty trucks. They need passenger cars, but these companies have largely ignored that customer need. In the lack of any quality passenger cars from domestic producers, Americans have turned to both the Japanese (for primarily economical cars) and the Europeans (for primarily luxury cars). These are holes that the 'Big 3' dug for themselves, and they have been their own downfall. Congratulations to the Big 3--you all were too dense to realize that you were ignoring the needs of 70% of American families.

Ford and GM would often say the "lose money" on lines like the focus only to make the money back on the Explorer and F150.

That is NOT a good business model.

Also note the mark up on the trucks is higher, and the F150 is not competing with any lincoln or mercury truck. The Silverado is not competing with any other GM truck either.

Yet the focus and escort always had equivalent mercury cars, and the cavalier and malibu had equivalent pontiac cars and similar they competed against.

Is this good business?

Bottom line is the companies (GM and Ford) got so big they made bad decisions. They are going to pay the piper for those bad decisions in 2009.

[maat55]

Union shop or non union shop?

Your right, there would be a huge difference in price.

[wincrasher]

Quality isn't just running a long time and many miles. There are plenty of 20 year old Fords and Chevy's out there still running strong.

The magazines are now calling it "perceived quality." That means the sound of the doors, feel of materials, switches, etc.

I've had plenty of "American" cars that ran great, but the seats were lumpy, had many rattles, the paint was shot, etc., in only a few years time.

My 2005 Expedition was the last straw. Stickered at $45k - 3 years old and it was a rattly, giggly mess. Parts falling off interior. Idled rough. Dealer offered me $11k for a trade in December.

I sold it to a buddy instead. Bought a 2009 Honda Odyssey minivan. Hauls more people and stuff, gets MUCH better mileage (27) and is easier to drive and park.

Have also a 2006 Hyundai Sonata - built in Alabama. LOVE this car. Not a single warranty claim or issue in 30,000 miles so far. 30 mpg with a V6.

Have a 2008 Mini Cooper S. Solid build quality to say the least, very fast and 40 MPG. Made in Britain by BMW.

I expect all these cars to be a pleasure to own with hundreds of thousands of miles on the clock.

[jIM_Ohio]

Quality isn't just running a long time and many miles. There are plenty of 20 year old Fords and Chevy's out there still running strong.

The magazines are now calling it "perceived quality." That means the sound of the doors, feel of materials, switches, etc.

Perceived quality my a$$.

My perception is the big 3's reality. Your perception is too. So is everyone else's.

And because a handle falls off or starts getting play to it and is not snug. The Big 3 says that is a cost cut. Honda and Toyota (among many other non US based automakers) see it as quality.

The US automakers are too bean counter oriented to make quality fixes like this. If you do the extra bit to make sure the little things do not fail (seats, handles, buttons) then it's OK if
a) the car costs more
b) the repairs do not make the dealers as much money

But the US automakers can perceive all they want- until they truly alknowledge how many corners they cut to get the price tag down, and are willing to put quality ahead of vehicle price, they will continue to fail and waste tax payer monies.

[Goldy1]

My 2001 SAturn was ready to literally konk out when I turned it in.
I have worked many years a few mins from home, and don't travel a lot. I think I only put about 8 or thousand miles a year if that;low mileage.

About 11 montha ago, I bought a 2007 SAturn that was owned about one year by the previous owner. Honestly, I wanted to buy in cash which I did, but all the cars I looked at cost too much. SAturn was the cheapest price I saw. Even stuff like Cobalts were a lot higher.

I got a report on my new SAturn after I bought it and found out that the car was stalling the first year the previous owner had it and was towed twice due to not starting on her. Some major electronic system controller)which cost thousands and I forget the name of the part) had to be literally replaced the first year it was bought. So far no probs for me though, but what kind of quality is that?

I guess I don't know how long to expect out of a car lol I admit I am patriotic.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Jim, maybe, but we dumped enough in the car it's been rebuilt except for the engine. If the engine goes, it's going in the toilet. Actually it's going in the toilet the second I get pregnant.

But Goldy, you asked who perceives quality? Two car magazines. Even car and driver, admits that quality of american cars are not the same.

And for 20 year old fords? Yes, they run, but how many more toyotas, volvos, VWs, do you see running around? Ancient VW bugs? Ancient VW buses?

Or many people with 1980s volvos and toyota camrys or accords? Way more than you see trucks. Part of it is, more people drive them. But the proportion I think is still higher.

They have great trucks, I only see F-150s, 250s, 350s for businesses. But how many people really NEED those types of vehicles? I certainly don't and I don't know anyone who really does.

I know people who have them, but NEED them? Except for my HVAC, painter, etc, maybe. But normal average worker bees?

[Bimmer]

The heavy-duty big trucks 3/4 and 1 ton) are decent, but they only compete with domestics. If Toyota ever ventured there, it could be real trouble for the big 3. The lighter duty big trucks (1/2 ton) have credible competition from the Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan. This has been good, the big 3 trucks have improved greatly in the last 5 years or so.

Lots of "foreign" cars are assembled in the US, delivered by US truckers who stop at US truck stops, deliver to US dealerships run by US citizens who sell the cars to other US citizens. These cars are also worked on by US mechanics.

I just look at cars that are 5-10 years old. Who has the peeling paint, sagging headliner, loose or broken trim and so on? More often than not, its a domestic.

The Corvette is good and has a great engineering team. If GM put 1/3 of the effort they put into the Corvette into mainstream cars (Cobalt, etc), they would be much better off. Similar at Ford and Chrysler (they can get a few things right, but ignore the basics).

Alas, they rely on bean counters, rental fleet standards and "focus group" surveys to dictate how a car is designed/built. They build really low-end versions of some cars (notice the ones with dark grey bumper covers and trim? Never see that on Honda/Toyota/others). Chrysler is really bad with this, they really cheapen the look of their cars/vans/SUV's.

I've owned used BMW, Audi, Ford, Jeep, Oldsmobile. I've owned new/nearly new Chevy, VW, Mini.

Loved the Mini, it was flawless, could not afford when I got married or I would still have it. Love the BMW's I have/had, pretty reliable and great drivers. Audi was a nightmare. Jeep was even worse than Audi. Olds was OK reliability-wise, but a poor design: big outside, cramped inside. V6 engine with 4-cylinder power and V8 fuel economy. Chevy was unreliable, but a decent design. Paint on roof started peeling at 50k miles on that one (and it was garaged most of the time!). VW is 2007 model, been perfect so far, but it only has 15k miles on it. We are moving to a used Honda minivan soon, so we won't find out how the VW holds up.

Ironically, the best domestic was the oldest: my ancient F150 4x4. 200k, had leaks, rust and such but almost always started and got the job done. It was used only for landscaping and remodeling work at my home or in big snow storms. I'm not sure it would have made it if used as a daily driver. It had some problems, but nothing major and nothing I did not expect at such high mileage.

[Goldy1]

It's more of a "guy car" but I really like the way the new charger looks.
It says "cool".

[GREENBACK]

Union shop or non union shop?

The question might be: Do we now have the cottage industries to make this feasible. I'm not sure unions would be significant, as a lot of the parts would be made outside of the main plant and they are often non-union, though, not always.

I think my truck would have cost about 80 grand if all parts were from the USA.

[Seeker]

I guess I don't know how long to expect out of a car lol I admit I am patriotic.

No car should be breaking down in it's first few years. Assuming proper maintenance and driving (ie no accidents, and oil changes when time), then just plain very simply, you should not have defects that compete for your time with a new auto.

I had a good american car once upon a time. It's just too bad that I have to go back to a model 1970 Chevy Nova to say that. I've tried a collaboration car between Chevy and Toyota, that was af failure.... it literally was losing parts on the highway as I drove along. Next time I started it up, clangign noise from the belt striking the engine. Dealer loaned me another car while they ordered the parts (hmmm? This car was made here!!!). It was fixed and I moved onto another Japanese car.

I'll never go back American. Never. It's not a perception -- it's a quality problem. My auto I drive now will be 10 years old in May.... it has over 105k miles and has never had any problems other than normal wear and tear. I don't expect to replace my Honda CRV anytime soon. Maybe I'll wear out before it

My dad had a lemon car American, that they tried to fix like 8 times in the first 3 months of its life. They could not come to an agreement and they had documentation of other users with the very same problem. We filed the paperwork for Lemon Cars and my Dad appeared and once the judge saw all they paperwork, Dad did not have to say a word. He got refunded and bought a Subaru afterward.

Ultimately people depend on cars to get them whereever they go. Most people desire reliability.... and it's just unfortunate that American cars no longer have that attribute.

The question of will they ever again? Or have the foreign companies just taken over in this regard? I'm doubtful... patriotism cannot get me to work... so it's really not worth it.