Having Children Too Soon Will Make You Poor

[PrincessPerky]

That woman (Helen K) is EXACTLY why more folk shouldn't have kids! there is NO reason why everyone should like the same things, but if you have nothing enjoyable about spending time (and TONS of it) with your kids, then why oh why did you have them!

This is not that folks don't deserve kids, on the contrary folk deserve chances at lots of things, I deserve the chance to play football...but I don't want to. I deserve some peace and quiet to figure out what shoes to wear with what skirt...but I don't want to!

I do on the other hand like to play with legos, and I like to cook with my children, and I like to help them learn....kids are messy, and require loads of attention, so don't go having one if you don't like kid 'stuff'. Sorry, nothing you do will get around the kids desire to be a kid...you can contain it, redirect it, ignore it, or join it...but you wont get rid of it.

Course having said that, I see no reason why a kid needs mom to play every game with them or critique every picture drawn...yes every nappy needs changed, but not every spill needs mom...pt em young, and teach em where to find the towels.

And what kind of parent takes their kid to a dinner party???? kids need time without mom and dad just as much as mom and dad need it without kids!

The only point where she has it right is the end

...created children who can do things like make up stories (very few kids can any more).

Because I have categorically said: 'I am not a waitress, a driver or a cleaner,' my children have learned to put away their plates and tidy up their rooms. They've become brilliant planners, often inviting their friends to come for the weekend (because I've forgotten to bother).

All that can be accomplished without ignoring 90% of their lives. (and who said Monopoly is the only game out there? Does she really NEVER read? non one said kids need kiddie books for bedtime stories....and when does she go outside? Parks can be boring...unless there is a free swing for me...but what about the rest of the world? Are shoes and coloring hair her only interests?)

[PrincessPerky]

The country I am coming from has good use for "older people": when mothers have to work (which most do) "older people" very much enjoy being hands-on grandparents, being a real part of their children and grandchildren's lives without CHARGING cold cash for baby-sitting.
It's called natural social support, the cycle of life. By contrast, most grandparents I have seen here are in constant search of their "personal selves" and just assume that their children will have to budget somehow to figure out a way to "raise their own children"...by paying strangers to do childcare! Offering some hands-on support is looked at with "are you crazy?" eyes? "That's just not what it's done around here".

Distance is another factore here...folks like to move, none of my kids grandparents are close enough to spend much time with them at all

But even if they were, I honestly heard one grandmother say "I did my time, I am out of that whole kid business'.... poor grandkids.

One of the greatest ills IMO is separating the very young from the very old...

[syracusa]

Distance is another factore here...folks like to move, none of my kids grandparents are close enough to spend much time with them at all

But even if they were, I honestly heard one grandmother say "I did my time, I am out of that whole kid business'.... poor grandkids.

One of the greatest ills IMO is separating the very young from the very old...

Completely and totally agree. Yes, it is a shame. And people are missing out on that kind of spiritual part of life - connecting with your own, feeling part of an intimate larger something when they're young and when they're old. The fact that these two generations never or rarely meet on the spiritual front is a humangous loss to our sense of humanity.

I have lived in "that kind" of culture and I have lived in this one...just like some say "I have been rich and I have been poor".
Yes, life is (only apparently) more plentiful and more materially comfortable here (for example more living space - all of it on debt of course, e.g. mortgage).

However, spiritually, happiness-wise, humanly speaking...it is a far cry, sad far cry, from the warmth and sense of community well-being I experienced before I left at 25 and still experience every year when we travel back to my home country.

I am now hoping to move back to be closer to family (or at least on that continent). Now that we have kids, it would be so nice to be close to home and to grandparents who cannot wait to help me with the children . However, we need to secure a decent financial situation first so we can satisfy my American husband's perception of "financial security" over there.


At this point, I would go back blindly ... but we need to stay somewhat rational when it comes to the "hard cash" issue. We hope to make it eventually.

[syracusa]

Distance is another factore here...folks like to move

Sure! That's part of the social infrastructure I was talking about. In the kind of cultures I mentioned, folks DON'T LIKE to move. So they look for jobs in their area, end of story. Yes, I know, that's not IDEAL for the national economy (the absolute best person in the country for X job), but people's lives are not all about THE NATIONAL ECONOMY.
Organizations should be content to get the best person for the job in the region.

Constantly moving is horrifically dumb, when you think about it. You lose a tremendous amount of local social support starting with your own family, close friends, good neighbours - the community that SHOULD MEAN something to you in this otherwise pathetic life.

If it doesn't - and instead the 300 bucks extra in that promised salary at the other end of the country does - then people deserve to pay whatever they pay for institutional childcare/baby-sitting and other EXPENSIVE child-related services.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Maybe moving to you is horribly dumb, but not everyone. Where I come from please tell me what job I can get? And moreso tell my why most of my cousins and siblings all left for jobs elsewhere?

I think you need to realize that you say it's horribly dumb to move but you don't even bother to understand circumstances.

But PP, I don't get why the woman had kids either. She'd have a lot more money and time if she didn't.

[syracusa]

Maybe moving to you is horribly dumb, but not everyone. Where I come from please tell me what job I can get? And moreso tell my why most of my cousins and siblings all left for jobs elsewhere?

I think you need to realize that you say it's horribly dumb to move but you don't even bother to understand circumstances.

For those who absolutely have NO CHOICE - this would be understandable. In small towns away from any major economic center you will have young people who absolutely have to move for a job or else. This happens all over the world. But this is not the case of MOST Americans who move.
Lots of them just apply for jobs across country to get what they perceive to be "the best deal" instead of focusing on the region they are from to stay close to family.
Many move because... that's what Americans do. Then HAVE AT IT!

But let's face it...this is a discussion similar to the one about divorce. Superficial lay beliefs tend to assume that all divorces happen because of something horrific happening in the marriage, something like violence or abuse as opposed to frivolous feelings of "I don't quite feel it anymore, I need to find myself, I found someone else better, I am not quite happy anymore".

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Um living in the middle of an ocean does not constitute? PLEASE! DON'T make completely ignorant comments.

Second I have many friends from small towns who are now engineers, scientists, etc. There are no high tech jobs where they are from.

So PLEASE tell me where these people should all live?

[cptacek]

For example here in the Philippines, the CBCP (Catholics Bishops Conference of the Philippines--a formidable lobby) in accordance with Church doctrine, opposes birth control. However, as far as I know, it does not support a single orphanage for the thousands of street children--many as young as four years old--who are the products of parents who cannot or will not provide for the large families that they produce because they are pressurd to have children whether they can afford them or not

Please do not tell me that this is not part of the teachings of the Church. I was at a Catholic wedding in which the priest exhorted the bride and groom to start having children immediately (obviously without consideration as to whether or not they were emotionally and/ or financially ready).

I'm sure there is no Catholic bashing going on here, right?

I stand corrected.

[syracusa]

Um living in the middle of an ocean does not constitute? PLEASE! DON'T make completely ignorant comments.

Second I have many friends from small towns who are now engineers, scientists, etc. There are no high tech jobs where they are from.

So PLEASE tell me where these people should all live?

I am not sure you're following the discussion. As I said, it is expected that those born and raised in small towns will move; but what about all those Americans who have always lived around major economic centers and STILL move to other far away cities just for the sake of the job when they could have easily limited the search to their area so that they remain in close proximity to family?

I know about a buzillion of those so PLEASE do not tell me that every American comes from a God Forsaken small town in no man's land where no job can ever be found. As a matter of fact...look at where the US population is concentrated. THE COASTS!

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Um, look at Monkey Mama, she lives close to her family? I live on the coast so I know what i'm saying! Most people I meet are NOT FROM HERE! I am not from here, most of our friends are not from Boston, NY, DC, Philly, Atlanta, etc. They are not from SF, LA, SD, Seattle, Portland. Most are from smaller towns.

And yes I am from a smaller town in Hawaii. Forgotten about that 50th state? Most people I know have left becaues of jobs. Also I have classmates and friends from Alaska, same reason.

I think you aren't follow the conversation about moving. MOST PEOPLE I've meet don't want to leave their families. Ask anyone from hawaii if they had the exact same job in the Mainland if they would go home????? YES! Can they????? NO!!!!!

Then ask people from China/India, same job, same pay? Yes they would. Merck is opening a chinese research facility with 3k job, over 20k chinese living in the US applied to move home....

I would say many people want to move home but can't. I don't think you're argument is working here.

Also look where the MAJORITY of the birth rate in the US. It's NOT in urban centers. People who are educated living in cities are NOT having kids.

Hence where are all these people coming from? Migrating from where? Another big city? No. They are coming from elsewhere. Look at where big families are located. Not in the major cities.

[syracusa]

Um, look at Monkey Mama, she lives close to her family? I live on the coast so I know what i'm saying! Most people I meet are NOT FROM HERE! I am not from here, most of our friends are not from Boston, NY, DC, Philly, Atlanta, etc. They are not from SF, LA, SD, Seattle, Portland. Most are from smaller towns.

And yes I am from a smaller town in Hawaii. Forgotten about that 50th state? Most people I know have left becaues of jobs. Also I have classmates and friends from Alaska, same reason.

I think you aren't follow the conversation about moving. MOST PEOPLE I've meet don't want to leave their families. Ask anyone from hawaii if they had the exact same job in the Mainland if they would go home????? YES! Can they????? NO!!!!!

Then ask people from China/India, same job, same pay? Yes they would. Merck is opening a chinese research facility with 3k job, over 20k chinese living in the US applied to move home....

I would say many people want to move home but can't. I don't think you're argument is working here.

Also look where the MAJORITY of the birth rate in the US. It's NOT in urban centers. People who are educated living in cities are NOT having kids.

Hence where are all these people coming from? Migrating from where? Another big city? No. They are coming from elsewhere. Look at where big families are located. Not in the major cities.

I personally know tons of Americans born and raised either in big cities or around big cities who accepted jobs far away from their region and who could have easily limited their search to the area they were from. Many even comment that where they are is "close enough" to home so they can visit their parents once in a while, but far enough not to have their parents "bug them" too much. The "too close for comfort" mentality.

I am sorry, America is known all over the world for this obsession with the "independence of the nuclear family". In Europe the economy has not been better than the US for a very, very long time - and yet people absolutely REFUSED (until recently at least, and many still do) to accept jobs far away from their regions.

They prefer to stay with the parents until the right job comes up in the area. The fact that Americans do not see this as an option does not make them neither right nor wrong. It just places them in the situation we were talking about: living in debt up to their eyeballs, thinking that they are "independent" when they are not, being dependent on a bank instead of the parental home, having no childcare options but the institutional/expenive type etc.

It is a choice for MANY of them - save the small towns. And even when we talk about small towns , there are still tons of them located in the vicinity of large or mid-sized cities. So I am not entirely buying this argument either.

Moreover, what do you make of the mentality of "going away for college" even when there are perfectly fine colleges close to gome - that is so typical for American youth but not for those in other industrialized nations?

My husband tells me about all his childhood friends all of whom insisted that they "go away" for colleges (while bypassing the local, close to home schools) so they can escape the parental eye and just start their "independece"!

All this is rooted in culture/mentality - it is not strictly a necessity!

Speaking of which, I would never agree to pay for my child's boarding expenses when he could live home until he/she finished school.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Ah ha, you are living in Europe? I'm in a major US city, and I know many more than perhaps you do. Would you like a poll of where everyone I work with is from? Or my DH? Most of the people he works with are internationals. Only one from the area. Everyone else has moved. But NONE are from major cities in the US. By the way most of the people you'll meet in Europe from Big cities have $$$$. They did not grow up in small-ville USA. I get to meet a few that come from Smallville USA because moving to a large city is HARD ENOUGH.

Why don't you if you are so certain ask those who live in the midwest on the board, why they haven't moved? If you are so sure that people move for jobs all the time?

Couple are from Michigan, TX, etc. Most are from smaller cities without industry where they live.

Same with our roommate an engineer. Most are from smaller cities. Sooo I'm not crazy and I live where the majority of people are in technology/white collar jobs. They would love to move home. BUT many can't.

Also since you are European I forgive your ignorance on the 50 states. I guess you have no idea where hawaii is, or what it's like there. Have you ever been? Until you have and have talked with people from there, DON'T EVEN TRY TO UNDERSTAND. Hawaii is very different from the Mainland US period.

When you meet people from hawaii ask if they'd move home? 100% say yes. Ask why they aren't? And you'll find out exactly what I'm saying.

[syracusa]

Ah ha, you are living in Europe? I'm in a major US city, and I know many more than perhaps you do. Would you like a poll of where everyone I work with is from? Or my DH? Most of the people he works with are internationals. Only one from the area. Everyone else has moved. But NONE are from major cities in the US. By the way most of the people you'll meet in Europe from Big cities have $$$$. They did not grow up in small-ville USA. I get to meet a few that come from Smallville USA because moving to a large city is HARD ENOUGH.

Why don't you if you are so certain ask those who live in the midwest on the board, why they haven't moved? If you are so sure that people move for jobs all the time?

Couple are from Michigan, TX, etc. Most are from smaller cities without industry where they live.

Same with our roommate an engineer. Most are from smaller cities. Sooo I'm not crazy and I live where the majority of people are in technology/white collar jobs. They would love to move home. BUT many can't.

Also since you are European I forgive your ignorance on the 50 states. I guess you have no idea where hawaii is, or what it's like there. Have you ever been? Until you have and have talked with people from there, DON'T EVEN TRY TO UNDERSTAND. Hawaii is very different from the Mainland US period.

When you meet people from hawaii ask if they'd move home? 100% say yes. Ask why they aren't? And you'll find out exactly what I'm saying.

It is ridiculous to reduce all this discussion to Hawaii. Hawaii is not representative of the entire US.
Yes, I currently live in the US (against my will, for the most part, trapped by circumstances) and I have more knowledge about life and mindsets here than I would normally care to.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

You just hate the fact that there are places you haven't been and haven't seen. I married a foreigner as well. I have MANY foreign friends including most I work with. And none are as arrogant as you.

They realize that life deals everyone a different hand. They also realize that people are different based on education, family, and culture. America has MANY different cultures.

Obviously you haven't seen that many. How much exploration have you done throughtout the US? Have you seen all the immigrants? Have you talked to illegals from Mexico? Think they wouldn't love to live near family?

Wonder why they ever came over? Wonder why they are sad they can't ever go back because they are illegal? Sometimes people who think they know it all about a country when they haven't seen or experienced it come off as know it alls.

By the way my grandmother lived in our second home. And my great grandmother as well. In fact she's 100 years old and still alive. My grandmothe is 80. Hmm...so don't tell me BS about family ties.

And yes hawaii has a very diverse cultural aspect. And it's not typical, but neither is small, rural 5-20k towns in the US. But there are lots of those.

[tbc32]

There are some financial advantages to having children when you are young and poor if you are also in school. There are all sorts of tax breaks and scholarship type programs for young families. I calculate that having our two children while I was in school actually made us a few thousand dollars and help us from accumulating more debt.