Having Children Too Soon Will Make You Poor

[cptacek]

Wow, I just *cannot* let this one go by! We converted to the Catholic Church two years ago, and this statement is just NOT TRUE. Sorry, but this is how they get a bad rap!
The Catholic Church *is* against most forms of artificial birth control, especially the pill, because a fertilized egg (i.e. a miniature human being who already has a soul in their belief) may be discarded by its intended action. However, you are free to use NFP, which is about 99% effective, when used correctly, even *better* than the pill.
The whole gist is that you and your spouse are supposed to talk about and pray about this *monthly* and decide at that point if this is a good time to open the opportunity for life. If you think it is, and you have no serious reasons for not having a child, you go ahead. If you have a serious reason, INCLUDING FINANCIAL PROBLEMS, you are able to use NFP for that cycle, without fear of sin, or any kind of disapproval from the Catholic Church.
Your statement is simply wrong, sorry, but it is, and I cannot let it go unchallenged.
There are TONS of Catholic members who use NFP and do not have 8 or more children. I personally know at least 5 women right now who would LOVE to be blessed, and the Lord has just said no. For someone to look at their families and judge them, is so sad. They are open to life, but it is not to be. :-(
Many Catholic families *would* be larger, but they have secondary infertility. I am hoping right now that I am not one of them. :-( Your comment hurt me. I would love to have eight children, and it may not be in the cards for me. I will be 35 in June, and my oldest is now 14 1/2.

Thank you lmclanahan. I've heard this so many times I tend to let it go without challenge, but you are absolutely right.

[GoodBuyGirl]

I think kids make people more responsible with their money.
I have always believed that only rich people plan when they will have kids.
which in my opinion takes a lot of fun out of life.

[SnoopyCool]

This is why we can never have an honest discussion of this issue.

That was my honest, knee-jerk reaction. That was as honest as I can be.

There is too much stigma attached to admitting you regret having (more) children and too many people willing to very harshly judge someone who might feel that way.

Probably, but who stands up for the child whose parents blame their miserable life on him?

I think it hurts us--it keeps us from having a discussion where we can explore all sides of an issue and learn from each other's experiences.

There, I may agree, but only because I wasn't tactful enough. We could all use more tact, I suppose.

It not incompatible to love your children and still realize you would have been happier if you hadn't been a parent or hadn't had as many kids.

That's like pipe-dreaming. To quote Kip "Like anyone could even know that."

Don't be so quick to condem, and especially to condem so absolutely.

It seems as though you are the judgement police. I'm sorry for my offensiveness. Really, I should have been nicer or more thoughtful in my response. That being said, I'd like to quote from a different post where you pulled out the badge and wrote a ticket on judgementality, as that poster's response would be more eloquent than mine:

"Different people feel differntly and the question is an emtionally charged one in the first place. I am curious as to where the disappointment stems from? Did you not want people to express how they felt? Would you have been more pleased if no one responded in fear of perhaps offending someone? I don't think people where attacking at all, expressing strong feelings, yes. But don't you have strong feelings about your children?

I have no desire to offend, so please let me know how I could share the depth of my feelings without offending. With money or finance it is much easier than children, I can just shrug my shoulders and say oh well, it's just money. I could never do that about the well being of my children...so I am really at a loss. Since I really appreciate the support and advice I get here, I would really like to know. I don't want to be afraid to share what I feel for fear of offending.

There may honestly be no way to do this too....you can't please everyone..."

[pearlieq]

It seems as though you are the judgement police. I'm sorry for my offensiveness. Really, I should have been nicer or more thoughtful in my response. That being said, I'd like to quote from a different post where you pulled out the badge and wrote a ticket on judgementality, as that poster's response would be more eloquent than mine:

...

I have no desire to offend, so please let me know how I could share the depth of my feelings without offending. With money or finance it is much easier than children, I can just shrug my shoulders and say oh well, it's just money. I could never do that about the well being of my children...so I am really at a loss. Since I really appreciate the support and advice I get here, I would really like to know. I don't want to be afraid to share what I feel for fear of offending.

I have trouble taking the label of "judgment police" from someone yelling "shame, shame, shame" at others. Who are you to heap shame on anyone?

What I find offensive is the push to impose your value system on other people. It's perfectly OK to love your children, to not be able to imagine your life without them, and to have the idea of regretting them elude you. Perfectly normal and probably typical of many parents.

But it's not OK, in my book, to call someone a bad person for feeling a different way. If that makes me the "judgment police" then hand over my badge and tiara!

[SnoopyCool]

I have trouble taking the label of "judgment police" from someone yelling "shame, shame, shame" at others. Who are you to heap shame on anyone?

I wasn't yelling. Out of respect for Jeffrey, I will not yell on this board. Shame comes from within, regardless of whether I say it or not. I can't make anyone feel shame on an anonymous forum. What power have I? BTW, a heap is 4 shames. Learned that in Algebra I.

What I find offensive is the push to impose your value system on other people.

What I find offensive is a small child abused. He can't script a rebuttle to the phrase "You ruined my life." What matters if an adult guilty of that gets offended because I say "shame" cubed? That is disastrous, a bad start in a child's life. Therefore, I will not concede.

It's perfectly OK to love your children,

Whew... thank you. Is it perfectly okay to tell them they ruined your life?

But it's not OK, in my book, to call someone a bad person for feeling a different way.

I agree! Nowhere did I say someone was a bad person. Everyone feels shame at some time and surely we are not all bad people. I think that parents who tell their children they are the cause for their unhappiness are parents who call their children bad persons. That is not okay in my book, and it ranks higher than walking on eggshells.

If that makes me the "judgment police" then hand over my badge and tiara!

C'mon... where do the police have tiaras?

[sweeps]

Snoopy, I think Pearlie was referring to thoughts, not actions. Everyone has thoughts and feelings that they aren't proud of and might regret. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

This reminds me of that whole thing about Helen Kirwan-Taylor.

[ThriftoRama]

I'm having my first baby on Monday.
I'm 33, married for 6 years. Own a home that's paid for, have a career, a decent chunk in retirement and have already opened and maxxed out a 529 plan and I still don't feel prepared.

You just don't have any way of knowing how much kids are going to cost or how it will impact your life. We're just going to do the best week can and hope the kid doesn't totally derail us financially, emotionally or otherwise.

[pearlieq]

Snoopy, I think Pearlie was referring to thoughts, not actions. Everyone has thoughts and feelings that they aren't proud of and might regret. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

That's definitely what I was getting at.

I absolutely, 100%, would NEVER think it was OK for a parent to tell a kid "you ruined my life". I would consider that downright abusive. And also BS. We're responsible for playing the hand we're dealt--if you're blaming a kid for ruining your life, you're totally abdicating your responsibilty as an adult.

But I also think it's OK for people to acknowledge that their life may have taken a different path, and that the road not taken is kind of attractive.

I knew a girl in high school who got pregnant at 16. She had her baby and raises her as best she can. I have no doubt she loves her daugther with every fiber of her being. But she also will lecture any young girl she can get her hands on about the importance of birth control.

[pearlieq]

This reminds me of that whole thing about Helen Kirwan-Taylor.

Holy bananas! I just read that article.

I'll fully admit that elementary school orchestra concerts leave me practically suicidal and I've never known exactly what I was supposed to do with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle figure thrust into my hand.

But what, uh, does this lady actually DO with her kids? That's quite a list of "I don't likes". What does she like? Or are they just accessories? Did she just have them because she thought she was supposed to?

[Exile]

The Catholic Church *is* against most forms of artificial birth control, especially the pill, because a fertilized egg (i.e. a miniature human being who already has a soul in their belief) may be discarded by its intended action.

This is the argument that the Church uses to oppose stem cell research which has the potential to save and improve the quality of countless number of lives. Yet it has no problem with fertility clinics, where unused fertilized eggs are also discarded. How selective.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Uh, holy cow. I cannot imagine being like that woman. But I like walking with my dogs, my DH and enjoying our life. I guess it's boring.

[cptacek]

Yet it has no problem with fertility clinics, where unused fertilized eggs are also discarded. How selective.

This statement is wrong. It is against church teaching to use fertility clinics like this, particularly when using sperm or eggs from donors, but even when using sperm and eggs from the husband and wife. Medication and the like to encourage healthy egg production or sperm production is ok, though.

I knew this, but to be absolutely sure, I just looked in my "Catechism of the Catholic Church" book. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger gave approval for this book to be printed. That is, the pope before he became the pope.

What some Catholics DO vs. what the church teaches, of course, is sometimes different, so that may be why you were confused. I'm sure there is no Catholic bashing going on here, right?

[Exile]

This statement is wrong. It is against church teaching to use fertility clinics like this, particularly when using sperm or eggs from donors, but even when using sperm and eggs from the husband and wife. Medication and the like to encourage healthy egg production or sperm production is ok, though.

I knew this, but to be absolutely sure, I just looked in my "Catechism of the Catholic Church" book. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger gave approval for this book to be printed. That is, the pope before he became the pope.

What some Catholics DO vs. what the church teaches, of course, is sometimes different, so that may be why you were confused. I'm sure there is no Catholic bashing going on here, right?

IF I'm wrong, cptacek, thanks for correcting me. No Catholic bashing here. Just dismay at what some Catholics DO in accordance with what the Church does teach. I'm speaking of the the clergy. For example here in the Philippines, the CBCP (Catholics Bishops Conference of the Philippines--a formidable lobby) in accordance with Church doctrine, opposes birth control. However, as far as I know, it does not support a single orphanage for the thousands of street children--many as young as four years old--who are the products of parents who cannot or will not provide for the large families that they produce because they are pressurd to have children whether they can afford them or not

Please do not tell me that this is not part of the teachings of the Church. I was at a Catholic wedding in which the priest exhorted the bride and groom to start having children immediately (obviously without consideration as to whether or not they were emotionally and/ or financially ready).

[PrincessPerky]

Please do not tell me that this is not part of the teachings of the Church. I was at a Catholic wedding in which the priest exhorted the bride and groom to start having children immediately (obviously without consideration as to whether or not they were emotionally and/ or financially ready).

I believe as much as folk like to lump 'catholic' all together, what the pope believes and what local priests believe is about as varied as the 'other' churches...only catholics don't go changing their church names when they disagree.

Kinda like saying 'all Christians believe X'...only thing that holds us together is the belief in our Risen Lord and Savior...not what He did, how He saves us, or what we should do.

[syracusa]

Someone earlier said that "Children are as expensive as you make them".

The statement caught my attention because I agree with it up to a point.
I see way too many people today obsessing over the COST COST COST of children, while avoiding to talk about what this COST is made up of, how inflated those figures often are, and how they have built-in materialistic assumptions that almost always make kids worse, not better.

Of course, no one talks about the VALUE of having children, just the COST. Their humanity and spirit, the huge reward of connecting and loving another human being, of slowly building a strong family, all those intangible rewards of being part of a close-knit cell and the social support that comes with it. Sure, that's "old-fashioned bunk", who cares about VALUE anymore when we need cold cash to finance EVERY SINGLE materialistic obsession we have! Oh yes, and I forgot about our obsessions with being independent at any cost, not EVER having any obligation towards anyone (just the banks!), no relation of reciprocity with another human being (just with cold institutions, they are somehow more humane than our parents, relatives, a good neighbor, etc). We have to be little atoms in and of ourselves. Now THAT costs too, by the way - banks charge for that!.

I am not debating certain child-related costs such as a health care, housing, basic clothing, and yes, even a college fund (I do think that parents should try as hard as they can to help kids make it in the future and not just throw them into a pile of debt at such a young age with the motto "they should struggle on their own, just like I did").

However, I have seen way too many parents who talk about how EXPENSIVE children are while buying them tons of unnecessary plastic toys, tons of clothes to just make them "look cute"...huge gas-guzzling cars to have enough space for all the junk they buy for them, and boarding at far-away-from-home colleges, when the most natural thing to do is to have the child go to the best university in town and live at home - end of story.

The actual cost of raising children is largely open to debate. Do not forget we are talking about a nation of obsessed consumers and rugged individualists who define themselves through the amount of stuff they have/can afford and their supposed "independence" ... but not through their humanity or the strong relationships they've been able to develop in time.

Now THAT will make a huge difference in the COST of raising children!

If this country still had the vaguest clue as to what real community, extended family ties and organic social support mean - they would suddenly discover that childcare, for example, is not all that expensive. Or college (take "going away" out of the equation and the cost will suddenly drop down).

The country I am coming from has good use for "older people": when mothers have to work (which most do) "older people" very much enjoy being hands-on grandparents, being a real part of their children and grandchildren's lives without CHARGING cold cash for baby-sitting.
It's called natural social support, the cycle of life. By contrast, most grandparents I have seen here are in constant search of their "personal selves" and just assume that their children will have to budget somehow to figure out a way to "raise their own children"...by paying strangers to do childcare! Offering some hands-on support is looked at with "are you crazy?" eyes? "That's just not what it's done around here".

When I was growing up, I could have never imagined NOT including my grandparents in my immediate, nuclear family. I always knew thay my family was made up of mom, dad, siblings and my two grandparents.
Childcare costed my parents zero. My grandmother was the type of woman whose eyes always beamed at the sight of her grandkids, she would have never imagined doing or being anything else other than our full-time grandmother.

We always adored her, I still do - 7 years after she passed. I always will.

In addition there were always older aunts, neighbors, you name it, who could always step in for some childcare situation, at least for a few hours.

Instead of pricey after school programs, my mom had a neighbour pick me up from school, heat up lunch for me and stay with me until my mom returned from work. She was giving her a little something, my neighbor was pleased because she had nothing better to do anyway...and more than anything, a neighbourly close relationship was developing naturally.

Yes, those good old days (or good ol' countries?) when people actually HELPED each other in organically grown communities as opposed to just talking about "volunteering" with fancy-sounding mammoth organizations.

Yes, I know, this country is not built the way I am suggesting. But you guys built this social infrastructre yourselves, in a very anti-humanistic way - and then complain that kids are expensive?

When you try to finance every little thing related to staying alive without ever depending on ANYONE else but a spouse and banks, you are bound to get in trouble eventually, especially when you have kids - which is a normal part of life, whether or not some see it as "an option".

All these greedy institutions at the top (banks, government, corporations) want you to be as individualistic and "self-reliant" as possible (which in fact means RELIANT ON THEM!!!) so that they can thrive on your fears of financial collapse.

No one has ever been self-sufficient. Not even the rich.
Let alone, you mere mortals.