Middle Class Income

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Of course it varies where you live, but how much do people think you need to be making as a family or single to be middle class? What is the range?

Where I live I would guess $80-100k is middle class. And I would have to save above $100k is not middle class. So I was surprised when friends tonight at dinner said they are "middle" class but I know they both probably make around $200k! My eyes nearly fell out of my head and I said no way.

They said they feel middle class, and I said you are definitely upper middle class. No way, no how. Don't get me wrong I'm in that category as well, but I don't claim to be middle class. Based on our base income we're close to middle class but with bonuses I know we're not.

I don't think my friends really get it. To them middle class is being able to buy $500k and feel like they are "middle" class. I can laugh because I know many friends buying small condos for $300k that I would probably place more along the lines of middle class.

[kork13]

It does vary ALOT across the country, and also depends on exactly how narrowly you define "middle class." Personally, I see it as a rather broad designation... I think of "middle class" as the middle 50% of society, which excludes the relatively small numbers of people outlying in the high & low ends of the bell curve.

So what's "Middle Class"? In my view, that would stretch between incomes between $40k and somewhere between $150k-$180k on the high end. (total guesstimate)

The "problem" is that everyone views it differently. Plus, there's the mental barrier that says "If I'm not rolling in dough and I'm not a pauper, then I'm middle class." Realistically, it doesn't much matter what people consider themselves... Sure, it gets a bit annoying when someone who clearly is at the top of the scale complains about how "times are tough for us middle class families" but the misplaced indignation is mostly harmless in the end anyway, so I wouldn't make much of it....

[disneysteve]

Why does it matter? How you define "middle class" is very individual, based on your own point of view and, often, your own income. It depends on your family size - 100K with no kids is different than 100K with 6 kids. It is also highly dependent on geography. Even a few miles can make a big difference. The median income in my town is somewhere around 80K. The median income where I work - my office is 8 miles from my house - is about 17K. They are worlds apart in regards to what constitutes a good income. I'm not really sure what difference it makes how you or I or even the government define "middle class".

[bjl584]

The term "Middle Class" is thrown around by politicians at election time, but it really doesn't mean anything. As Steve said, the definition is so broad that it is almost meaningless.

[bigdaddybus]

To me it is pretty simple. As wikipedia states "The middle class is a class of people in the middle of a societal hierarchy."

In the US the Median household income is $46,326
The Median dual income household income is $67,348
And the top 10% of US households are those making over $118,200 per year.

To me, using basic Unites States statistics, the middle class are those in the 25%-75% range of US household incomes. This amount is $25,000-$80,000 a year.

I wish I could find a link, but I read awhile ago that the average family depicted on TV make approx $125,000 a year. So with TV depicting "average" as those above the top 10% of US household incomes, no wonder views of the middle class are skewed.

[Nika]

There is another way to look at it.

If you say that a middle class family should be able to at least afford a 1,000sf house and 2 cars, than you can see it at differently.

Sure, you may bring home more, but if rent for an average 2br apartment, with one tiny windowless bath and a kitchen that 2 people cannot be in at the same time, is $3,800 per month, daycare for one child is $2,400, and car insurance for a paid off old car with clean record for a new 25 year old driver is $400 a month, garage spot is another $400. Than yes, 200k make you middle class.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

In comparison to your $200K earners, LAL, I know someone who I earns about $50K and lives in a very low cost of living area. She told me she thought she was lower class.

I know $50k isn't high, but "lower class?" That didn't strike me as correct either. I'd rather think of her life as, "keeping up okay, nutritious food on the table, able to afford the new roof when needed, air-conditioning humming along, heat pumping out in winter, car paid for in reasonable time, can save for retirement, kids in a decent school, health insurance, 4BR 2bath house w/ 2 car garage, landscaped, big kiddie toys in the yard, dance lessons for the kids, paying the mortgage down early, washer, dryer, dishwasher, extra freezer, able to afford home repairs and small improvements, electronics in the home, even if never the latest models, etc" That is how she lives, and that sounds middle class to me. It takes some skillful management to do it without consumer debt, and it takes saying no to some things. But over all it is a comfortable life.

Do we all just feel sorry for ourselves, no matter what our income, no matter how it in reality compares to others around us, no matter how secure and comfortable a life we can afford?

[BMEPhDinCO]

This was a debate I had with myself on the way to work today after reading an article in the NYT on a girl who is truly poor. They have 7 children, she's the oldest at 11. They live in 1 room in a decrepit old hospital turned into housing for the poor. They have mice and bugs daily. They share showers with everyone else in the building. She wears dirty hand-me-downs when there is no laundry money. Her parents don't work. Sometimes her only food is the subsidized lunch.

Compared to someone like this, I am sitting very well. We have our own house (mortgaged), we own our cars. We only have student loan debt - but we are both college educated. We have more than 10 months expenses in an emergency fund - plus other money. We eat well - and can go out for dinner often (enough for us). So while we are, by this thread, lower to middle "middle class", we are very wealthy in some ways.

So my decision was that "middle class" means you can afford all your needs and some of your wants. You are a "worker" (ie, you need a paycheck to sustain your lifestyle) but you aren't dependent on the government.

[disneysteve]

So my decision was that "middle class" means you can afford all your needs and some of your wants. You are a "worker" (ie, you need a paycheck to sustain your lifestyle) but you aren't dependent on the government.

I think that is a good way to put it. It isn't a dollar amount, because there are too many variables there (geography, family size, etc.). It is about lifestyle.

[JoeP]

The fact that these terms contain the word "class" conjures up visions of the movie titled Titanic: the Upper Class sat carefully composed in quiet and elegant dining rooms being served delicacies and eating with silver tableware and patting their pursed lips with embroidered napkins, while the Steerage Class derelicts below ate with their greasy hands and chugged beer out of dirty mugs and belching with full abandon competing against the noise coming from raucous card games and some gypsy working a squeeze box in the corner.

Who cares.

If you're comfortable with what you earn, live in a nice place with decent schools, and save up enough so you can retire with dignity, then it is referred to as SUCCESSFUL. Anything over that is extra money, and how that money is treated is far more important than some line on your tax return.

[HalfDozenDaily]

The fact that these terms contain the word "class" conjures up visions of the movie titled Titanic: the Upper Class sat carefully composed in quiet and elegant dining rooms being served delicacies and eating with silver tableware and patting their pursed lips with embroidered napkins, while the Steerage Class derelicts below ate with their greasy hands and chugged beer out of dirty mugs and belching with full abandon competing against the noise coming from raucous card games and some gypsy working a squeeze box in the corner.

Who cares.

If you're comfortable with what you earn, live in a nice place with decent schools, and save up enough so you can retire with dignity, then it is referred to as SUCCESSFUL. Anything over that is extra money, and how that money is treated is far more important than some line on your tax return.

Amen! If most knew our income for a family of 6, they'd be shocked, and we'd definitely be in the "steerage" class... lol! But we live modestly, we have no debt, save religiously, count our blessings, and live within our means.

[jIM_Ohio]

Of course it varies where you live, but how much do people think you need to be making as a family or single to be middle class? What is the range?

Where I live I would guess $80-100k is middle class. And I would have to save above $100k is not middle class. So I was surprised when friends tonight at dinner said they are "middle" class but I know they both probably make around $200k! My eyes nearly fell out of my head and I said no way.

They said they feel middle class, and I said you are definitely upper middle class. No way, no how. Don't get me wrong I'm in that category as well, but I don't claim to be middle class. Based on our base income we're close to middle class but with bonuses I know we're not.

I don't think my friends really get it. To them middle class is being able to buy $500k and feel like they are "middle" class. I can laugh because I know many friends buying small condos for $300k that I would probably place more along the lines of middle class.

IRS suggests 75% of tax returns are under 40k AGI, so I would think nationally 40k-120k is the middle class.

[ua_guy]

To me it is pretty simple. As wikipedia states "The middle class is a class of people in the middle of a societal hierarchy."

In the US the Median household income is $46,326
The Median dual income household income is $67,348
And the top 10% of US households are those making over $118,200 per year.

To me, using basic Unites States statistics, the middle class are those in the 25%-75% range of US household incomes. This amount is $25,000-$80,000 a year.

I wish I could find a link, but I read awhile ago that the average family depicted on TV make approx $125,000 a year. So with TV depicting "average" as those above the top 10% of US household incomes, no wonder views of the middle class are skewed.

This. The Middle Class is a discussion of numbers, and not subjective assesments regarding lifestyle. It's an important discussion and I've found most people are generally delusional about where they really sit.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

This. The Middle Class is a discussion of numbers, and not subjective assesments regarding lifestyle. It's an important discussion and I've found most people are generally delusional about where they really sit.

Middle class is a discussion of numbers only if we equate class with income while at the same time ignoring networth and such. I think there is more to the concept of middle class than that.

I think the idea is interesting, maybe even important, as you suggest. I don't tire of hearing different informal approaches to analyzing it.

[disneysteve]

the middle class are those in the 25%-75% range of US household incomes. This amount is $25,000-$80,000 a year.

So you think a family making 25K is middle class? And a family making 90K is not middle class? I would certainly disagree on both points.

Middle class is a discussion of numbers only if we equate class with income while at the same time ignoring networth and such. I think there is more to the concept of middle class than that.

Agreed. It isn't just about numbers.