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  • #31
    Well I have been using all my surplus income (income post retirement savings) for basically the following : paying off investment debt (2 rentals I own), buying gold, buying close ended funds (heavy in bonds), and finally some cash and equities purchases.

    1) R.E. Rentals - Bought 1 place for $90k, put $10k into it, and it rents for $1k a month. 2nd rental: INherited. I owe $10k on it, and it rents for $1250 per month. (*note - Sold a bunch of big wins in my taxable accounts this year. The gov't Corporate bailouts for COVID surged my prices soooo high, that I would have been a fool not to sell and secure my rentals).

    2) Buying Gold - Most liquid hedge against the falling US Dollar index value.... This is being further fueled by the ~0% interest rate, and printing too much money against our petro dollar (I think were spreading it too thin...). Since the bailout, I've pivoted my rare metal % from ~5% --> 10-20% (not sure when I'll stop, but I won't exceed 20% I imagine).

    3) CEF (close end funds) = Currently I use Calamos, convertible, close end funds. They are about 50/50 equities and high risk debt (Bonds), with a mix of domestic/international exposure. These pay a solid 10% dividend, on a monthly basis. Typically I use the monthly interest income to buy additional shares of broad based index funds. These funds hold risk, as bonds would take a hit if the interest rates rise. But interest rate rise will be years out, FED made it clear they're not going to do much. And the value of these bonds is nearly irrelevant, as your trading a low ceiling for a 10% floor. (These paid me steadily during the 2008/9 housing & stock market recession). Plenty of good companies w/ comparable bonds, Aberdeen (I think is another). But I have kept to Calamos.

    4) Cash: I paid off all my debts except for that $10k on my mom's house. (paid down from 50K i used to owe on it). I'm letting some cash buidup.... but because I paid off all my homes, I have HELOC's with a significant credit line @ 2.5% interest (*tied to prime, but that isn't going up anytime soon). So i'm a coiled spring of accessible cash, for if/when an opportunity arises (hopefully in the form of real estate, or deeply discount durable assets - like heavy equipment, commercial property, or other)

    5) Equities: I'm still investing a bit in some broad based index funds (VTI, SPY, VOO, those kind). But not as aggressively as I had in the past. They're way too expensive.... Only reason I'm buying them still, is because it's part of my DCA strategy.... And it's all part of the process to adhere to the strategy.


    ****6***** Looking for new opportunities, outside of the market. Really interested in land (>40 acres in michigan), storage rental property, tax lien investing, and researching other methods of investing outside of the market. (I love the idea of owning property.... as it can derive value soo easily, and land is basically free in Michigan compared to the coasts. So it's a good time to buy stuff and hold..... as the only thing you really can't manufacture easily, is more earth). Plus we have a lot of farming up here, so it's not difficult to lease land for storage, farming, hunting, or other. Basically stave of the taxes until opportunity comes knocking.

    These have been my taxable strategy during covid. (retirement has not changed at all). But i'm hoping if I do right in my taxable investments, I won't have to ever use that retirement stuff. and i really hope it was just a long term emergency fund that barely needs to be plucked at all.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by LivingAlmostLarge View Post
      I also think that dividends unfortunately are falling by the wayside now for retirement

      The feds have done retirees a grave disservice. They've done all investors a huge disservice.
      Why do you think dividends aren't useful anymore? There are still plenty of companies that pay a good dividend. We have a dividend ETF that is yielding 3.59% currently.

      Our overall portfolio is doing great. It's only our cash accounts that aren't earning what they used to.
      Steve

      * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
      * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
      * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by disneysteve View Post

        Why do you think dividends aren't useful anymore? There are still plenty of companies that pay a good dividend. We have a dividend ETF that is yielding 3.59% currently.

        Our overall portfolio is doing great. It's only our cash accounts that aren't earning what they used to.
        exactly. I'm earning 10% on CEF's paid out MONTHLY. You can't buy income like that.... Almost ANYWHERE. And these have been paying steady for me for roughly a decade now. Everyone thinks the "value" of the fund is everything.... THis is such bogus logic given the interest and coupon rates you can find. They can't be discounted fully, even if they carry risk. It still is paying you money, and thats the game im interested in.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by amarowsky View Post
          3) CEF (close end funds) = Currently I use Calamos, convertible, close end funds. They are about 50/50 equities and high risk debt (Bonds), with a mix of domestic/international exposure. These pay a solid 10% dividend, on a monthly basis. Typically I use the monthly interest income to buy additional shares of broad based index funds. These funds hold risk, as bonds would take a hit if the interest rates rise. But interest rate rise will be years out, FED made it clear they're not going to do much. And the value of these bonds is nearly irrelevant, as your trading a low ceiling for a 10% floor. (These paid me steadily during the 2008/9 housing & stock market recession). Plenty of good companies w/ comparable bonds, Aberdeen (I think is another). But I have kept to Calamos.
          amarowsky - would you be willing to share the ticker symbols of the funds that you like which are paying 10%?

          Also, if you're looking at ways to use leverage, you might consider checking out this thread on Twitter.

          Thread by @XDays: LEVERAGE THREAD Warning, not for 99% of readers or the faint of heart. If you like risk and are comfortable with the possibility of getting financially destroyed, read on. Also, everything here is ...…


          Its a nice summary of some healthy ways to use leverage to grow your wealth. I like the person who posted it - Thirty Days to X. He's a younger guy living abroad who hawks a lot of referral links, but he's thinking and doing different things with his money than most people. His profile is => here.

          james.c.hendrickson@gmail.com
          202.468.6043

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          • #35
            Originally posted by amarowsky View Post

            exactly. I'm earning 10% on CEF's paid out MONTHLY.
            Just to be clear, you mean a 10% annual distribution that is paid out monthly, not a 10% monthly distribution.

            I took a look at their site and it looks like their Global Dynamic Income Fund (CHW) is paying 10.22%. They also have their Global Total Return Fund (CGO) at 9.89%. Their other funds are all between 8 and 9%.
            Steve

            * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
            * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
            * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by disneysteve View Post
              Just to be clear, you mean a 10% annual distribution that is paid out monthly, not a 10% monthly distribution.

              I took a look at their site and it looks like their Global Dynamic Income Fund (CHW) is paying 10.22%. They also have their Global Total Return Fund (CGO) at 9.89%. Their other funds are all between 8 and 9%.
              Thank you DisneySteve!

              I pulled the holdings for both the CHW and the CGO. Both funds have a lot of the same securities.

              Here is the holding list for CHW.


              And here are the holdings for CGO.


              One thing to think about - if you don't like either of these funds you could always consider investing in their holdings directly. Both of these funds have a 3% fee. So, if you liked the returns, but don't want to pay the fees, nothing is stopping you from buying the underlying assets directly.



              james.c.hendrickson@gmail.com
              202.468.6043

              Comment


              • #37
                @amarowsky where are you investing in RE that it's so cheap? Nah I like some stocks and I'll buy and hold and then sell like Corn when time is right. I'm not so keen on closed end funds. I think it's somewhat a pricey investment.

                Steve, I think dividends are okay from stocks. But the bond yields right now are so low that bond prices are super high. It's a crazy time. Right now there is no where to really hide in bonds and keep up with inflation with the feds keeping it at 0%. Plus i would be terribly nervous about the stocks and dividend yields because i worry that stock prices are inflated right now like crazy. Saying this as I invest in stock. but I think for the long term we have to keep on investing because stocks is the only thing that is going to pay back with returns for the moment. I would buy real estate but I worry we are due for a crash there too.

                LivingAlmostLarge Blog

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by james.hendrickson View Post

                  One thing to think about - if you don't like either of these funds you could always consider investing in their holdings directly. Both of these funds have a 3% fee. So, if you liked the returns, but don't want to pay the fees, nothing is stopping you from buying the underlying assets directly.
                  While that's true, it's also not that simple. Just look at the info you posted. Less than 20% of the funds' holdings are in the top 10 things. If you want to come close to replicating the funds' returns, you'd probably need to invest in dozens of securities.
                  Steve

                  * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                  * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                  * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    My SO likes to do hard money loans for 1st mortgages. You get monthly interest payments and then your principal back at the end. Or, you don't get your principal back but you foreclose on the real estate. You want to make sure there is plenty of equity, of course.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Petunia 100 View Post
                      My SO likes to do hard money loans for 1st mortgages. You get monthly interest payments and then your principal back at the end. Or, you don't get your principal back but you foreclose on the real estate. You want to make sure there is plenty of equity, of course.
                      What about affiliate marketing? Like get a really popular social media account - like twitter or Facebook and then share affiliate links with your audience?
                      james.c.hendrickson@gmail.com
                      202.468.6043

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by LivingAlmostLarge View Post
                        @amarowsky where are you investing in RE that it's so cheap? Nah I like some stocks and I'll buy and hold and then sell like Corn when time is right. I'm not so keen on closed end funds. I think it's somewhat a pricey investment.

                        Steve, I think dividends are okay from stocks. But the bond yields right now are so low that bond prices are super high. It's a crazy time. Right now there is no where to really hide in bonds and keep up with inflation with the feds keeping it at 0%. Plus i would be terribly nervous about the stocks and dividend yields because i worry that stock prices are inflated right now like crazy. Saying this as I invest in stock. but I think for the long term we have to keep on investing because stocks is the only thing that is going to pay back with returns for the moment. I would buy real estate but I worry we are due for a crash there too.
                        Totally regionally dependent. I live in Detroit, MI metro area, so incomes are crazy high from automotive world compared to most of typical USA. It's not uncommon for middle class folks w/ professional degrees to make $80-140,000 here. (I know that is pocket change in NY/Elite East and Cali/Elite west). But you can also get houses for $130-190 a sq/ft here. Which may be impossible on the coasts or growing cities (Austin, Nashville, Boulder, etc...). So there is a unique ability to be a very high earner compared to the house costs.

                        So while there is a nonstop supply of new builds in the $250,000 - $750,000 around me. There were also some options in the very very old cities (very Mid- Lower middle class) working level neighborhoods. So a ton of these houses are leftover from when Detroit has to become the famed, "Arsenal of Democracy" from the 30's to the 60's. SO we have thousands of 1,000-1,400 sq foot more modest homes from the past. Eventually one of those slip through the cracks and can be renovated at an affordable price, and the taxes can stay Fairly low. Currently you can't really rent anything for lower than $1,000 unless you go to the blighted neighborhoods within "dead detroit". So you have to be smart, but you can find these options laying around. Right now, because of the housing melt up, there is no chance at buying anything for a good deal. But judging by this melt up, it's very similar to the price flucuations leading up the 2009/2008 crisis. I think we're gonna have a lot of underwater folks soon.

                        *note - DO NOT BUY IN CITY OF DETROIT. Typically if the price seems to good to be true, it is... There were HUNDREDS of houses that were selling for less than $10k, and you were just buying garbage to be cleaned up. You have to target a realistic ROI, but then the numbers have worked out.

                        Great question though! We're happy with our 8-10% ROI on our homes. And it feels good to have some solid Sticks and bricks, that I own EVERY CENT of to keep a nice chunk of my investments safely outside the volatile stock market.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by disneysteve View Post

                          While that's true, it's also not that simple. Just look at the info you posted. Less than 20% of the funds' holdings are in the top 10 things. If you want to come close to replicating the funds' returns, you'd probably need to invest in dozens of securities.
                          exactly. There are a fairly wide basket of convertible debt (into common stock) and stock mix. Again, I'm not buying these for the returns in NAV, but exclusively for the distributions. You were correct, it is 9-11% annual dividend paid out on a monthly basis. (TBH I bought a lot of CHW when it was paying 13%-14%, so I was nearly getting 1% paid out per month, after the capital gains are taken out).

                          The expense ratios are high, but sometimes it's worth it when your getting a steady steam of income on a monthly basis. I then take my dividends and put them into things that are more mainstream (typically index funds).

                          I think the (4) I have been balancing for the past 10 or so years are: CHW, CHY, CGO, and CHI. <--- at the time i was trying to balance some of all of them. Now I purchase based on value:dividend ratio primarily (essentially buying which ever of the 4, is currently paying the best rates). They ebb and flow as some of them hold a bit more international debt than others. I think the slight majority share being in CHW and CGO currently (the global ones).

                          I use them only in my Taxable accounts***. As they do hold some risk. Basically I have had these replace my "typical bonds" held in the tried and true "3 fund passive portfolio strategy" as made famous by Jack Bogle and his boggleheads.

                          I know it's riskier debt, and it does have higher expense ratio. But it is difficult to argue with the constant stream of income..... (and the fact that the price doesn't waver too much, so it has been reasonably stable compared to other indexes and specific stocks). <--- at least thats my spin. We have to take risk whenever growth is present. This is the risk I'm willing to take for such a high floor.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by james.hendrickson View Post

                            amarowsky - would you be willing to share the ticker symbols of the funds that you like which are paying 10%?

                            Also, if you're looking at ways to use leverage, you might consider checking out this thread on Twitter.

                            Thread by @XDays: LEVERAGE THREAD Warning, not for 99% of readers or the faint of heart. If you like risk and are comfortable with the possibility of getting financially destroyed, read on. Also, everything here is ...&#8230;


                            Its a nice summary of some healthy ways to use leverage to grow your wealth. I like the person who posted it - Thirty Days to X. He's a younger guy living abroad who hawks a lot of referral links, but he's thinking and doing different things with his money than most people. His profile is => here.
                            man... I can't tell you how many times Ive ran the numbers to leverage hard into Close ended funds.... it's soo tempting.... but that is merely my greed taking over my rational mind. I know i could snag about 100k from my HELOCs and invest into CHW at todays $8.50 per share ($0.07 per month div paid). lets do the numbers for fun....

                            Leverage:
                            $100k at 2.5% variable simple interest (*tied to prime rate - 0.75%) = $2,500 in interest owed per year (or $208.33 per month to meet MINIMAL INTEREST , no principal paid off).

                            Investment:
                            100,000/ 8.50 = 11,764 shares * $0.07 (monthly dividend) = $824.48 per month earned (before cap gains) or $9,881. Lets take the 15% off for cap gains = $8,399 year/$699.958 per month.

                            Income:
                            $700 per month - $208 interest = $492 in the black each month. So you SHOULD use that to laser down the $100,000, or for whatever use you have.

                            Ran it in a Debt Calculator, if you assumed the 2.5% is CONSTANT (it would NOT be on a heloc, due to prime fluctuation) it would take you 170 months to pay it off $700 at a time (*200 int + 500+ principle).


                            Risky.... But after 10 years you have $100,000 paid in full that is producing $700 per month until further notice.

                            That being said, IF I did that. I would have a plan to pay it off in 3 years or less, and put all my disposable investing income into paying off that debt. (I hate debt... but I understand it is leverage. and respect the risk that comes with it). I don't think the growth is worth the risk though... I dont need money that bad anymore. I like my organic, slow, and steady growth. That type of leverage would likely make me more ill and happy.... (Now we talk about 20% of that, and maybe doing a 20k injection as a more manageable experiment. I'm much more interested).

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by amarowsky View Post

                              man... I can't tell you how many times Ive ran the numbers to leverage hard into Close ended funds.... it's soo tempting.... but that is merely my greed taking over my rational mind. I know i could snag about 100k from my HELOCs and invest into CHW at todays $8.50 per share ($0.07 per month div paid).
                              The only problem is the CEW return isn't guaranteed in any way. Regardless of their track record, which is impressive, that could change next week or next month or tomorrow. I love the way you think, though.

                              I used to do something similar back when money market rates were high and cash advance fees on credit cards were low. I would take a 10K advance on my Discover card, pay a small fee ($3 I think), put that money in a tax-free money market for 50 or so days, then write a check to pay off the advance before interest got assessed at the end of the grace period. I earned way more than $3 interest. Then I would turn around and do it again, every 2 months. It was a nice little extra income.
                              Steve

                              * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                              * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                              * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I actually first heard of the Calmos CEF's from this forum (I think back in like 2009 or 2010 ish). I thought Signguy(edit, was Not him) mentioned them, but it may have been someone from way back in the day. (crazy to think ive been on here for 12 years now lol)

                                Yea the rates can change, but considering the length of time they've been paying.... I can't really see a more consistent alternative spread among equal exposure. I don't think we can get interest rates to go up again until we have a fundamental change in economic motivators in our country....

                                With there being no risk to large companies for leveraging money to the hilt.... as long as "they're trying" to make these awful errors in the attempt to achieve profit. And we all know there is majority bi-partisan support to bail out ANY company regardless of how strong or poor their risk management was. Fundamentally , if this type of governance continues... there is as close to 0% risk in investing in any LARGE ENOUGH publicly traded companies. This is the ONLY benefit we have been seeing to our now Wholly adopted Corporate socialism approach of "Corporate trickle down support" and rugged capitalism for all private individuals. Following this logic, it only makes since to lean in, as interest rates won't be raised (costs too much profits to big companies).

                                Hate that this is true.... But please prove me wrong!
                                Last edited by amarowsky; 10-07-2020, 07:02 AM. Reason: Singuy joined in 2013, must have been another old contributor... Although I still do appreciate the FVRR advice (bought in at $60, and will be long on this one. It'll come in handy w/ the 2nd wave pot

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