Do You Guys See An Electric Car In Your Future?

[Singuy]

In the car business, the Tesla is considered an exotic car. The average buyer of a Tesla isn’t buying it for fuel savings. They are buying it for panache. I know three Tesla owners. All three are deep into 6 figures and one of the three is 8 figures.

I love the Tesla and some day might buy one. It will go from 0-60 very quickly. But make no mistake, EVs are decades away from being a car for Everyman, because for now they are still Coal Cars, and converting coal to electricity and delivering it to your outlet 60 miles away is incredibly inefficient.

If you’ve got $40K in solar panels and can generate your own KWs for your $80K EV, it makes sense - I suppose. But there again, $40K buys quite a bit of petro. And for $80K, I can have a petrol Range Rover Sport turbo that will go 400 miles on 40 bucks in gas and climb a mountain the same day. I’ll take the Rover.

A Tesla model 3 uses 74kw to travel 330mi. Lets say you drive 1400 miles/month, you will need 300 KWh generated from solar just to power the car/month. This will require $7,500 ($5300 after tax credit) worth of solar panels(installation included) to power your car (my 40k(29k after tax credit) panels power the house AND the car). You will end up paying this much in gas after 2.5 years so that's your break even point.

Also we are now 34% natural gas, 30% coal, 20% nuclear, 15% renewables in 2016

The numbers for 2017 is

•Natural gas—41%
•Coal—25%
•Hydroelectric—10%
•Nonhydroelectric renewables—11%
•Nuclear—9%
•Petroleum—3%
•Other sources—1%

To say that electric cars are coal cars is a little misleading. In fact renewables are catching up to coal at 21% vs 25%

[Spiffster]

How much does cold weather driving effect range (using battery power for cabin heat) ?

Depends on how toasty you are going to keep the cabin, you could take a big hit to range. This is a real problem with smaller battery EVs in colder climates. But if you remote start while the car is plugged in, you should see only a minimal drop in range since these cars are smart enough to use mains when available (if the battery is full) the battery will only be used to maintain cabin temp after you unplug, and drive off. The higher capacity the battery, the less you will need to worry about that. A cold battery also has slightly increased internal resistance, which will cause more range loss in colder weather, but really not more than you would get with an ICE in cold temps. Both heat themselves up quickly. Obviously keeping the car in a garage helps a great deal.

I have actually bundled up and rode into work with the heater completely off on a few cold days (around 30 degrees) and only saw maybe a 10% hit to range in my 2013 Volt. You turn that heater on full blast and you can see a 30% drop in range (!), but total range is only 38 miles (EPA) in that car. On really cold days I would just set the system to "hold" mode and it would fire up the ICE for the first 5 or so miles of my commute, then I would set it back to "normal" (EV) mode and the engine waste heat would keep the car warm for the remainder of the 20 mile commute. Fortunately electric motors are so damn efficient, there is little waste heat created.

BTW blasting AC in the summer uses very little juice compared to heating system. Also motor performance is not affected because compressor is run on separate system.

[disneysteve]

Depends on how toasty you are going to keep the cabin, you could take a big hit to range.

I hadn't thought about this. Is the same true with AC in the hot weather? We live in a 4-season locale so the heat and the AC get plenty of use. If that significantly cuts into the range, I can certainly understand why EVs are not catching on (among other reasons).

[TexasHusker]

I hadn't thought about this. Is the same true with AC in the hot weather? We live in a 4-season locale so the heat and the AC get plenty of use. If that significantly cuts into the range, I can certainly understand why EVs are not catching on (among other reasons).

AC barely affects the range. One day in the summer I sat in a parking lot waiting for my wife in her volt. I ran the AC full blast and it ticked down our range a mile.

[TexasHusker]

A Tesla model 3 uses 74kw to travel 330mi. Lets say you drive 1400 miles/month, you will need 300 KWh generated from solar just to power the car/month. This will require $7,500 ($5300 after tax credit) worth of solar panels(installation included) to power your car (my 40k(29k after tax credit) panels power the house AND the car). You will end up paying this much in gas after 2.5 years so that's your break even point.

Also we are now 34% natural gas, 30% coal, 20% nuclear, 15% renewables in 2016

The numbers for 2017 is

•Natural gas—41%
•Coal—25%
•Hydroelectric—10%
•Nonhydroelectric renewables—11%
•Nuclear—9%
•Petroleum—3%
•Other sources—1%

To say that electric cars are coal cars is a little misleading. In fact renewables are catching up to coal at 21% vs 25%

MANY power plants are 100% coal.

[TexasHusker]

How much does cold weather driving effect range (using battery power for cabin heat) ?

Cold cut the range of our Volt in half when temps reached the low 20s. The batteries don’t mind heat, but they hate cold.

[Singuy]

MANY power plants are 100% coal.

Yeah about 25% of them.

I don't think there are such a thing as hybrid power plants where it's half coal half nuclear or something.

[disneysteve]

MANY power plants are 100% coal.

True but the point was that only 30% or less of the nation's power comes from coal.

[TexasHusker]

True but the point was that only 30% or less of the nation's power comes from coal.

Understood. But over two thirds of our electricity is produced by fossil fuels.

We can’t depend on wind because when the wind doesn’t blow, you don’t have electricity. And when the sun doesn’t shine, you have no solar power.

At best, these renewables will reach one third of our electricity production. For the other two thirds, we will have to rely on nuclear and fossil fuels.

Part of the problem is that we do not have the technology to store much power - a sort of macrocosm of the EV problem.

[TexasHusker]

Yeah about 25% of them.

I don't think there are such a thing as hybrid power plants where it's half coal half nuclear or something.

Actually a plant here is coal + wind.

[greenskeeper]

Understood. But over two thirds of our electricity is produced by fossil fuels.

We can’t depend on wind because when the wind doesn’t blow, you don’t have electricity. And when the sun doesn’t shine, you have no solar power.

At best, these renewables will reach one third of our electricity production. For the other two thirds, we will have to rely on nuclear and fossil fuels.

Part of the problem is that we do not have the technology to store much power - a sort of macrocosm of the EV problem.

Agreed. Solar panels also degrade over time and need to be serviced/replaced. They aren't "install it and forget it"

[Singuy]

Agreed. Solar panels also degrade over time and need to be serviced/replaced. They aren't "install it and forget it"

They degrade 0.5%/year which means when my warranty expires in 20 years with Tesla, my panels should produce 80% of the original rated power production. The inverter actually goes bad way sooner than the panels, which I also have a 20years worth of warranty. The trick is to put the inverter in the garage for maximum life. And if Tesla tanks, then all my equipment has 15y manufacture warranty.

Electric cost in my area increases about 2.5%/year
My payback period is 8 years.
ROI is about 7% tax free over 20 years(0% first 8 then 12% next 12years). This number increase once I go gasoline free.

[TexasHusker]

They degrade 0.5%/year which means when my warranty expires in 20 years with Tesla, my panels should produce 80% of the original rated power production. The inverter actually goes bad way sooner than the panels, which I also have a 20years worth of warranty. The trick is to put the inverter in the garage for maximum life. And if Tesla tanks, then all my equipment has 15y manufacture warranty.

Electric cost in my area increases about 2.5%/year
My payback period is 8 years.
ROI is about 7% tax free over 20 years(0% first 8 then 12% next 12years). This number increase once I go gasoline free.

I think you have found a good system. I am curious, the solar panels cost $40K. Does that include tax credits ? What sort of tax credits are there ? I’m just curious how much Uncle Sam is kicking in on these.

And I assume we might you draw your power from the plant at night since the sun isn’t helping ?

[Singuy]

I think you have found a good system. I am curious, the solar panels cost $40K. Does that include tax credits ? What sort of tax credits are there ? I’m just curious how much Uncle Sam is kicking in on these.

And I assume we might you draw your power from the plant at night since the sun isn’t helping ?

Tax credit=30% of the total cost of the solar off. So I'll end up paying about 28k once I receive the refund.

Electricity is generated and is being pumped into the grid then back to you for any usage or if there are any over production then your neighbors get to use the electricity. The over production is captured in the form of a "credit" which is then fed back to you at night when you have no sun. This credit keeps on rolling over during the course of the year until they cash you out if you actually produced more than you used for the year.

The electric company will pay you whole sale prices for your over production but you pay retail prices of course for any additional power you draw if the panel didn't product enough for the year.

[TexasHusker]

I went to a website called Solar Nation where you put your address in and it projects your monthly electric bill savings with solar panels. My electric bill would actually INCREASE 30 bucks a month.

Guess I’m out on that one.