Vacation time?

[disneysteve]

Not sure I follow. How does unlimited PTO mean people take less of it?

I think the problem is a toxic work culture. Taking vacation is frowned upon by so many. People are judged on their work ethic and commitment to the job based on how much or how little time they take off. So companies get to advertise and recruit that they give employees "unlimited" vacation time when the reality is that people actually take very little of it, or even none. It's tremendously dysfunctional.

[riverwed070707]

I think the problem is a toxic work culture. Taking vacation is frowned upon by so many. People are judged on their work ethic and commitment to the job based on how much or how little time they take off. So companies get to advertise and recruit that they give employees "unlimited" vacation time when the reality is that people actually take very little of it, or even none. It's tremendously dysfunctional.

Agree. It also feels like a nice corporate segue to say "we give you unlimited time off and therefore we expect you to be connected all the time". I'm always envious of my UK colleagues who put on an OOO that says "out for summer holiday. I will respond when I return in 3 months". In my current job I can't even wrap my head around taking 2 consecutive weeks and instead end up taking a whole lot of 4 day weekends which are nice for catching up at home but not conducive to travel

[kork13]

I think the problem is a toxic work culture. Taking vacation is frowned upon by so many. People are judged on their work ethic and commitment to the job based on how much or how little time they take off. So companies get to advertise and recruit that they give employees "unlimited" vacation time when the reality is that people actually take very little of it, or even none. It's tremendously dysfunctional.

If a company judges you based on how much time off you do or do not take, how does offering an unlimited amount change anything? How would it be any different if the same company offered everyone a set 3 weeks of PTO?

[riverwed070707]

If a company judges you based on how much time off you do or do not take, how does offering an unlimited amount change anything? How would it be any different if the same company offered everyone a set 3 weeks of PTO?

It's not really except that 1) its designed to attract new talent toward a seemingly large benefit and 2) it pits employees against each other in a "can you believe [name] took a whole 2 weeks off last week? That's their 3rd vacation this year and I haven't had time for one!" sort of way. Shifts the focus from the company having a crummy policy/toxic culture to employees judging one others time prioritization. Not unlike the ultra wealthy shifting focus of the middle class from themselves to the poor who "abuse the system"

[disneysteve]

It's not really except that 1) its designed to attract new talent toward a seemingly large benefit and 2) it pits employees against each other in a "can you believe [name] took a whole 2 weeks off last week? That's their 3rd vacation this year and I haven't had time for one!" sort of way. Shifts the focus from the company having a crummy policy/toxic culture to employees judging one others time prioritization. Not unlike the ultra wealthy shifting focus of the middle class from themselves to the poor who "abuse the system"

And it isn't necessarily the company judging but your fellow employees. They try to one-up each other by taking less and less time off to "prove" their dedication to the job in hopes of climbing the corporate ladder faster.

[jenn_jenn]

If a company judges you based on how much time off you do or do not take, how does offering an unlimited amount change anything? How would it be any different if the same company offered everyone a set 3 weeks of PTO?

Another major motivator for companies to offer unlimited PTO is that they no longer have to carry it on their balance sheet because there are no payouts for unused time.

I’d argue that it isn’t a recruiting tool. I’ve always counted unlimited PTO as a negative not a positive.

[disneysteve]

Another major motivator for companies to offer unlimited PTO is that they no longer have to carry it on their balance sheet because there are no payouts for unused time.

That makes sense.

We don’t get paid for unused time but the hourly staff can sell back a certain amount each year.

For those with unlimited PTO. How does that actually work? Do you still need to get your days off approved? And how far in advance? Do they limit how many people can be off at once?

[Mjenn]

I get 6 weeks plus holidays and I can bank 5 days. I take a long summer break - about 5 weeks sometimes a bit longer.

I get comments about it a lot - but I always strongly defend it. I use it as an opportunity to go to my home country with my family and emmerse ourselves.

I have been promoted regularly and am in management now and I still do it. I use it as an example to my team that vacation is good and important.

The comments are mostly that if i am gone so long can I really be that necessary — my answer is that of course, and that’s why it is great I come back recharged so I can give 100%.

but in the country I live in companies are required to provide staff 4 weeks off in a row in the summer and most people take it. I am guessing it would be much harder with an unlimited vacation policy.

[QuarterMillionMan]

Most of everyone posting here are skewing the bell curve on the high side of number of vacation days. On the lower and opposite side of the bell curve take for example hourly workers at Amazon who get 5 days vacation the 1st year and can earn up to 15 days vacation after 6 years (salaried workers can earn up to 20 days vacation after 6 years). If I were applying for a job at Amazon I'd pursue a salaried position over hourly position for the increase vacation accrual alone.
Paid Time Off for U.S. Amazon Employees* | Amazon.jobs

[jenn_jenn]

That makes sense.

We don’t get paid for unused time but the hourly staff can sell back a certain amount each year.

For those with unlimited PTO. How does that actually work? Do you still need to get your days off approved? And how far in advance? Do they limit how many people can be off at once?

You may not have be able to roll over time YoY but if you leave a company during the year, I believe they have to pay you for your accrued unused time. This is how it’s always worked at companies I have worked for.

I’ve worked for two different companies that switched to the unlimited PTO model and the process is by and large the same as it is when you have a defined amount of PTO. All time off still has to be approved. The answers to your other questions will vary by position and company.

[ua_guy]

Not sure I follow. How does unlimited PTO mean people take less of it?

Pretty much what the others have said. It really depends on the company culture. But almost nobody wants to be seen as "taking too much PTO" so employees with that benefit behave much like those who are only given a few weeks per year.

Case in point...DH started his new job in March. He did take a week of PTO recently, encouraged by his boss to do so. Other than holidays, he might take another day or two to bookend a long weekend. So if he takes 10 days this year, "unlimited PTO" really isn't all that it's cracked up to be Knowing his track record, it's a wild year if he takes two actual weeks of PTO, no matter what the company policy is.

[kork13]

Pretty much what the others have said. It really depends on the company culture. But almost nobody wants to be seen as "taking too much PTO" so employees with that benefit behave much like those who are only given a few weeks per year.

Case in point...DH started his new job in March. He did take a week of PTO recently, encouraged by his boss to do so. Other than holidays, he might take another day or two to bookend a long weekend. So if he takes 10 days this year, "unlimited PTO" really isn't all that it's cracked up to be Knowing his track record, it's a wild year if he takes two actual weeks of PTO, no matter what the company policy is.

I guess that's exactly why I question how it matters. If most people will take a relatively normal amount of PTO either way, what's the problem? But in the event you DO actually need alot of time off (family/personal emergency, for example), it's not a massive issue to take that time & handle it. Under normal rules, you have to beg borrow & steal PTO days from co-workers or go into the hole with your own future PTO days.

[ua_guy]

I guess that's exactly why I question how it matters. If most people will take a relatively normal amount of PTO either way, what's the problem? But in the event you DO actually need alot of time off (family/personal emergency, for example), it's not a massive issue to take that time & handle it. Under normal rules, you have to beg borrow & steal PTO days from co-workers or go into the hole with your own future PTO days.

On the flip side, with Unlimited PTO, there is no accrual, and no cash-out. At some tiers of employment, selling PTO back to the company is also an attractive option for extra money at the end of the year. With unlimited, employees can't do that.

[disneysteve]

I guess that's exactly why I question how it matters. If most people will take a relatively normal amount of PTO either way, what's the problem? But in the event you DO actually need alot of time off (family/personal emergency, for example), it's not a massive issue to take that time & handle it. Under normal rules, you have to beg borrow & steal PTO days from co-workers or go into the hole with your own future PTO days.

On the flip side, with Unlimited PTO, there is no accrual, and no cash-out. At some tiers of employment, selling PTO back to the company is also an attractive option for extra money at the end of the year. With unlimited, employees can't do that.

I took a leave of absence earlier this year after my cousin died. That was great to have that option but it sucked up my PTO so now I have a deficit that I need to work off. We can't borrow PTO from others. We also can't accrue or cash out PTO. The staff can sell it back but we can't.

It's really sad how many, just in this thread, have expressed an inability to actually use the PTO they have coming to them.

[james.hendrickson]

A sane workplace would just let you take the time you need.