Tipping question - What would you do?

[disneysteve]

I find the whole concept of tipping quite disgusting. In the situation above, I would not tip.

I agree that tipping is a broken system.
I don't agree that the response to that should be to not tip.

Until the system changes and employers are required to pay workers a fair wage, I do think it's your responsibility to tip appropriately. If you aren't willing to do that, you shouldn't go to places where tipping is expected. So you've made the right decision for yourself to stop eating out.

But if you did eat out, I think you are obligated to tip appropriately whether you like the system or not. If you choose to participate in the system, you're signing up for the whole experience which includes a tip. It's not fair to the servers for you to take up their time and not compensate them.

[avil_saver36]

I agree that tipping is a broken system.
I don't agree that the response to that should be to not tip.

Until the system changes and employers are required to pay workers a fair wage, I do think it's your responsibility to tip appropriately. If you aren't willing to do that, you shouldn't go to places where tipping is expected. So you've made the right decision for yourself to stop eating out.

But if you did eat out, I think you are obligated to tip appropriately whether you like the system or not. If you choose to participate in the system, you're signing up for the whole experience which includes a tip. It's not fair to the servers for you to take up their time and not compensate them.

I agree in the case of restaurants, the "unwritten contract" has been forced upon the consumer and in order to participate, 15% extra bribe is the norm. We eat at a traditional restaurant maybe once a month, and we pay our 15%. The way I beat the system is to simply take out food or go to casual dining places as I stated in the previous post.

In the case of a cruise, I would not tip. With this logic, anyone in the service sector industry could demand a tip. It also forces me to be verbose with the law and figure out if I am dealing with someone protected by the minimum wage laws or exempted by it (and hence the obligation to tipping). If it becomes apparent tomorrow that everyone expects a tip on the cruise, guess, the cruise lines will lose my business too.

Tipping makes me angry. I can afford to eat out more (and I would rather do it), but I choose not to, and I spend my leftover discretionary income to travel to Cancun, where I don't have to tip an arm and leg to get good service. Cancun gain, US loss.

[disneysteve]

In the case of a cruise, I would not tip.

I guess you won't be cruising. Cruise staff is paid almost nothing, like a couple of dollars per day literally. They depend entirely on tips for their income. On most cruises, the usual tipping schedule is $12/person/day last time I checked.

My situation was a little different. This was just a 2-hour lunch cruise, not a vacation cruise. So it was more like going to a restaurant that just happened to be on a moving ship.

[avil_saver36]

I guess you won't be cruising. Cruise staff is paid almost nothing, like a couple of dollars per day literally. They depend entirely on tips for their income. On most cruises, the usual tipping schedule is $12/person/day last time I checked.

My situation was a little different. This was just a 2-hour lunch cruise, not a vacation cruise. So it was more like going to a restaurant that just happened to be on a moving ship.

Yup, never took a cruise for that reason. You would literally be stuck for days with the staff who would be pissed at you if you didn't bribe them enough

Cruises play the bait and switch game almost to the perfection. Most consumers have no idea how much they really paid for that low low price of $699 cruise.

The 2 hour cruise you mention is like an "activity". I live near DC and there are so many of those sightseeing cruises on the Potomac especially during the cherry blossom season. I had taken them a couple of times, and I didn't tip anyone there. Like any other activity, you should pay one single sticker price to take the cruise. That's how I view the tipping policy for that specific cruise.

The same is true for sightseeing guides. Since it's just not clear if you should tip them or not, I generally avoid guided tours altogether unless I am going as a part of a large group and the tips have been negotiated and paid for in advance. As a consumer, I need not know how much you make, and I need not pick the tab for your cheap ass employer. Also, I don't know the scale of how many people you are serving, and I don't know how much everyone is tipping you. It's very easy to make a killing by soliciting tips from unaware consumers.

Just how easy it is? Imagine what it takes to be a millionaire - a buck from a million unsuspecting people. Most people will not miss that buck, but if you could create a clever scheme, where you don't have to do any real work and it doesn't cost you anything, but if you could make a million people give you a buck is, you are a millionaire! If you could repeat this experiment a few times, you would be a multimillionaire. The same principle applies to people who expect tips - they have an opportunity to operate at a large scale and extort money out of you in the name of "low wage psychological blackmail". Some of them can easily aggregate more than even upper middle class incomes.

[greenskeeper]

We need Mr. Pink to chime in on this topic...

[LivingAlmostLarge]

$10 seems okay I'd leave around $20. OMG I didn't even read the not tipping in Cancun. That cannot be real. You can't not tip in Mexico. Are you nuts?

[riverwed070707]

Just how easy it is? Imagine what it takes to be a millionaire - a buck from a million unsuspecting people. Most people will not miss that buck, but if you could create a clever scheme, where you don't have to do any real work and it doesn't cost you anything, but if you could make a million people give you a buck is, you are a millionaire! If you could repeat this experiment a few times, you would be a multimillionaire. The same principle applies to people who expect tips - they have an opportunity to operate at a large scale and extort money out of you in the name of "low wage psychological blackmail". Some of them can easily aggregate more than even upper middle class incomes.

I was with you until this garbage rolled off your fingers. I 100% agree that the tipping system is broken. Its more like a tax because its expected (and sometimes enforced). However, I think your anger and frustration is misguided. If you're going to point fingers, shouldn't it be at the business owners who pay below minimum wage jobs and the legislators who make it legal? Don't take it out on the workers.

Also, clearly you have never worked in the service industry if you think its not hard work. It is exhausting work with long hours on your feet, dealing with a lot of less than pleasant people and entails a heck of a lot more than what you see from your table. That server that "did nothing you couldn't do yourself for 2 hours" also probably set the tables, rolled the silverware, swept the floors, filled the ice bins, stocked the cups and side stations, just to name a few things all so the customers could enjoy a relaxing meal - anyone who can't appreciate not having to do those things for themselves during their dining experience are usually the same ones who also complain when it takes too long for their drinks because the ice ran out or there were no glasses left and the server has to go restock those things. I'm glad you choose to stay home instead of stiffing a hardworking server over some misdirected frustration with their compensation.

[Butterscotch]

Not tipping in Cancun!?! Are you under the delusion that the staff at resorts/hotels in Mexico are somehow better off than your American waiter? You're wrong. As someone who has traveled extensively throughout Mexico, both resort and local areas, I can tell you that life in Mexico is a struggle. Not tipping in the U.S. is rude so I'm glad you don't go out to eat. But not tipping in Mexico is just embarrassing. It's not Europe...stay in your house.

[disneysteve]

OMG I didn't even read the not tipping in Cancun. That cannot be real. You can't not tip in Mexico. Are you nuts?

Not tipping in Cancun!?! Are you under the delusion that the staff at resorts/hotels in Mexico are somehow better off than your American waiter? You're wrong. As someone who has traveled extensively throughout Mexico, both resort and local areas, I can tell you that life in Mexico is a struggle. Not tipping in the U.S. is rude so I'm glad you don't go out to eat. But not tipping in Mexico is just embarrassing. It's not Europe...stay in your house.

I haven't been to Cancun but I have been to several resorts in Jamaica and St. Lucia that had a very strict no tipping policy. Employees caught accepting tips would be fired immediately. I can only assume that they were paid a fair wage to make up for the lack of tips.

[avil_saver36]

I do not tip 15% in Cancun. Some of the people need to take reading comprehension lessons.

And NO, in an all-inclusive deal, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TIP. I have seen several "cheap Americans" who didn't. Mexican locals almost never tip. I have been to Cancun 3 times, and I can guarantee that tipping there is rare and you don't have to tip an "arm and leg" for good service (my exact words).

I had said that my comments would be unpopular. They are. I am fine with it. I don't give a damn what the sheep think. This being a forum of financially savvy people is supposed to have out-of-the-box thinkers, and I am sure there are some who think exactly like me. The rest of the sheep - well, if you are not cheap in tipping, you certainly are cheap somewhere else. I just hope you aren't depriving your kids college fund just so that your ego needs to tip someone a ridiculous 20%.

[Butterscotch]

If I'm a sheep for tipping then you're a baby chick for not! Cheap, cheap! Cheap, cheap!

[avil_saver36]

If I'm a sheep for tipping then you're a baby chick for not! Cheap, cheap! Cheap, cheap!

LOL.

1) I have clarified I simply do not go to eat to restaurants - when I do, I do subscribe to the 15% payment model. So I am not cheating anyone out of tipping. I just choose not to spend and pay a 15-20% tax on the services.

2) I have also clarified I choose to spend in places like cancun. I have some $300-400 discretionary food spending budget that I almost never spend. Over an year, I can easily take one (or even 2 if deals are right) Cancun trips with that money. In Cancun, tipping is completely discretionary - true story.

This is my last post on the topic. Obviously, tipping is a sensitive topic in the US just like guns, religion and politics - these topics are frivolous at best in the rest of the world. If you feel tipping is winning you hearts and kindness of human beings, by all means, be my guest. I don't judge if you tip - just don't judge me if I don't.

[avil_saver36]

I was with you until this garbage rolled off your fingers. I 100% agree that the tipping system is broken. Its more like a tax because its expected (and sometimes enforced). However, I think your anger and frustration is misguided. If you're going to point fingers, shouldn't it be at the business owners who pay below minimum wage jobs and the legislators who make it legal? Don't take it out on the workers.

Seriously, READ BEFORE YOU WRITE. I do not take it out on the workers. Did you read what I wrote? Did you? Did I say I go out to eat IN THE US and DO NOT TIP?

My point regardless is completely on the mark and several people have complimented me for articulating it well. You do NOT HAVE TO TIP 15% in the US - even in the US, the employer has to make the difference between minimum wage and earned income if the tips don't cover it. You might be subsidizing "possibly" an extremely high income of a server - possibly higher than yours and there is no way you ever know just how much these waiters are making. You are blindly paying a tax without understanding in aggregate how much it is adding to the bottom line of the waiter. Making the tipping percentage based was genius whoever thought of it, and it is allowing the service industry workers tax the consumer ad-infinitum. Now everyone from a bellboy to a cab driver to a hairdresser needs a tip and somehow everyone wants it 15%.

[riverwed070707]

Seriously, READ BEFORE YOU WRITE. I do not take it out on the workers. Did you read what I wrote? Did you? Did I say I go out to eat IN THE US and DO NOT TIP?

My point regardless is completely on the mark and several people have complimented me for articulating it well. You do NOT HAVE TO TIP 15% in the US - even in the US, the employer has to make the difference between minimum wage and earned income if the tips don't cover it. You might be subsidizing "possibly" an extremely high income of a server - possibly higher than yours and there is no way you ever know just how much these waiters are making. You are blindly paying a tax without understanding in aggregate how much it is adding to the bottom line of the waiter. Making the tipping percentage based was genius whoever thought of it, and it is allowing the service industry workers tax the consumer ad-infinitum. Now everyone from a bellboy to a cab driver to a hairdresser needs a tip and somehow everyone wants it 15%.

Yes I did read what you wrote. You said "The same principle applies to people who expect tips - they have an opportunity to operate at a large scale and extort money out of you in the name of "low wage psychological blackmail" and my point was that the workers didn't create this, the employers, the industry and the legislation did. I think anyone who has spent any time in a service position would agree its pretty offensive to accuse service staff of psychological blackmail

[avil_saver36]

Yes I did read what you wrote. You said "The same principle applies to people who expect tips - they have an opportunity to operate at a large scale and extort money out of you in the name of "low wage psychological blackmail" and my point was that the workers didn't create this, the employers, the industry and the legislation did. I think anyone who has spent any time in a service position would agree its pretty offensive to accuse service staff of psychological blackmail

Sorry to return to this post again as I don't want to cause a flame of wars, but have you never encountered extreme unpleasantness from the wait staff if they felt the tips were low? I was once threatened because I refused to pay the 15% bribe for a downright shoddy service and paid "only 10%". There are numerous videos/evidence out there that the service staff spits in customer's food if they see a "non tipper" return back to the place. Pray tell me - would you as a customer even dare to frequent a place if you didn't tip 15-20%? You would be scared out of your wits.

It is universally accepted that if you don't tip AT LEAST 15%, you would be subjected to some bad and gross things. Several people tip even a bad service out of fear. It's fine if you don't want to acknowledge it; it doesn't change the truth.

Fact: Even restaurant wait staff is guaranteed minimum wage. That's the law. if they pressure you to tip above and beyond NO MATTER what the service is, it's blackmail - I don't know any other word to put it. I am not blaming any individual - it's institutionalized. I am also sane. I agree if I belonged to that institution and if tipping benefitted me, I would insist on tipping too and create all sorts of illogical arguments to somehow justify this.

By law, everyone in any industry gets a minimum wage. If you work menial service jobs in a restaurant, that's what you should expect. You should never think of this job as a career and expect to make upper middle class salaries out of extorting tips from your customers.

Here is a simple math exercise. On average, I would expect a middle/upper middle class family to spend $250 a month on food in restaurants. That's $3000 a year. At 20% tips, it's $600 in tips. Over 18 years, that's almost $11K. Do you begin to understand just how much money you are throwing away in tips? Compare this number to the average student debt in the US at $25K.

Seriously. My final post on this topic. Happy tipping.