Do Americans Actually Want Freedom?

[Singuy]

I was having a conversation about all this gun debate, how the 2nd amendment is crucial to have a the proper freedom the citizens deserves. We Americans are extremely passion about it, and it's our freedom that separates us from suppressed countries like North Korea for example.

This got me thinking...if Americans cherish freedom this badly, then how come no one wants true freedom?


When I was young, living in old China in the 80s...which was much or less a glorified NK..no one really cared about what individual citizens did moment to moment(just not enough governmental enforcers to micromanage all the citizens). But there's one place where people are constantly micromanaged in the U.S..and that's your workplace.

You have to be at work at a certain time, do your job with an appropriate attitude, you can't use your phone, you can't turn in assignments late, you can't goof off and talk to people that's not work related, and the list goes on and on. The majority of Americans are micromanaged daily at work for 40-50 hours/week, for the rest of their lives. Since retirement money wasn't saved, or 76% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck due to a lack of budgeting or proper sacrifice..most spend a good 60% of their lives suppressed by these supervisors. Then most end up with hard to pay mortgages, which caused their freedom to be even more suppressed at work because losing a job can now mean losing a home.

Where is the freedom in that? Tell me again how freedom is that important to you if you are not willing to sacrifice so you can be financially independent one day? (Sacrifice includes either pinching pennies to save, taking on multiple jobs or getting educated to increase earnings).

***This is not a gun debate topic, we are not here to talk about guns***

[amastewa93]

Moved to everything else financial.

Good topic, lets keep it respectful and focused on money/personal finance.

[disneysteve]

if Americans cherish freedom this badly, then how come no one wants true freedom?

You have to be at work at a certain time, do your job with an appropriate attitude, you can't use your phone, you can't turn in assignments late, you can't goof off and talk to people that's not work related, and the list goes on and on.

Are you suggesting that these things shouldn't be true? There need to be rules and responsibilities at work for things to function properly and efficiently. You can't have people showing up whenever they feel like it and sitting around all day texting their friends and posting to Facebook.

Since retirement money wasn't saved, or 76% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck due to a lack of budgeting or proper sacrifice..most spend a good 60% of their lives suppressed by these supervisors. Then most end up with hard to pay mortgages, which caused their freedom to be even more suppressed at work because losing a job can now mean losing a home.

Where is the freedom in that? Tell me again how freedom is that important to you if you are not willing to sacrifice so you can be financially independent one day?

This is a far better question. We talk about this here all the time. You do need to be willing to make certain sacrifices to achieve your goals. You can't spend every penny you earn and more and then complain that you are living paycheck to paycheck and will have to work until you die.

Still, I'm not sure what the first part about work has to do with this. I have a great job that I really enjoy, but I still have to be there at a certain time, have an appropriate attitude, and not goof off all day. I would expect nothing less.

[Singuy]

Still, I'm not sure what the first part about work has to do with this. I have a great job that I really enjoy, but I still have to be there at a certain time, have an appropriate attitude, and not goof off all day. I would expect nothing less.

Work require structure, no one is denying that. This type of structure is similar to totalitarianism. You have the boss who tells you what to do at all time. You can't deviate even if you think it's a bad idea. They hire plenty of people, use all sorts of monitoring software and cameras to make sure you carry out the tasks you were told. Of course you are compensated for this in the form of giving you the ability to feed yourself (life) and put a roof under your head.

A dictator gives its people the compensation of ...life.....as long as they follow what the dictator says like a mindless robot, you wouldn't be terminated.

Had a technician the other day who had some down time at work. He looked at his phone and checked some messages. 2 mins later, his supervisor called and asked him to put his phone away. The supervisor was starring at the cameras from 5 stories down. Ironically this technician is extremely adamant about how the second amendment will protect us from a dictator...but ironically he's already being controlled by a dictator and is okay with it due to his spending habits on none other than guns.

Therefore I see both structure are very similar. You can't get rid of a dictator without a revolution, just like how you can't get rid of your job unless you are financially independent. Both require proper sacrifice from the individual.

[disneysteve]

You have the boss who tells you what to do at all time. You can't deviate even if you think it's a bad idea.

This is certainly true to an extent, but at a decent job, the supervisors and managers will be open to feedback. If an employee sees a problem or has a suggestion of a better way to do something, there should be a way to suggest it and have it at least be considered. I know there certainly is at my job and even in the short time I've been there, things have changed based on employees' feedback.

Had a technician the other day who had some down time at work. He looked at his phone and checked some messages. 2 mins later, his supervisor called and asked him to put his phone away. The supervisor was starring at the cameras from 5 stories down.

That's pretty extreme. I'd certainly have a problem working under those types of conditions. We have a no phone/no internet policy at work but it's rarely enforced unless someone is really abusing it. As long as people are getting their work done in a timely manner, they really don't care if you use a free moment to check your email or text your spouse to check in. Now if you are watching YouTube videos while there are patients waiting to be taken care of, that's a different story.

[msomnipotent]

Any person that can do a job that needs to be done can choose to work for themselves here. You don't want a supervisor? Be an entrepreneur. You want money for a toy when you are 8 years old? Shovel snow or mow some yards. You are free to do the job you want to do as long as you can make a living at it.
You don't want to save any money towards retirement? You are free to chose to work until you die or live off of pensions or public aid.

Freedom is the luxury of following your own choice after considering the consequences. Your first post sounds like you are confusing freedom with anarchy.

[Singuy]

Not confused, but conflating. Looks like Amazon wants to track their employees via wrist band. This is what happens when a corporation needs to maximize profit for their shareholders. Every company would love to use robots to replace employees because not only to reduce errors, but they can be fully controlled. I guess the next best thing before this technology mature is to make employees into something as robot like as possible.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/02/technology/amazon-employee-tracker/index.html

[disneysteve]

Not confused, but conflating. Looks like Amazon wants to track their employees via wrist band. This is what happens when a corporation needs to maximize profit for their shareholders. Every company would love to use robots to replace employees because not only to reduce errors, but they can be fully controlled.

I still don't see this as a freedom issue because every single Amazon employee has the freedom to not work there. No government official is coming to their home and forcing them into servitude for Amazon. They chose those jobs. The tech being told not to use his cell phone at work chose that job and continues to choose it every day. He could freshen up his resume and start looking for a better job. As msomnipotent mentioned, he could also start his own company and work for himself. We are free to make our own choices. If we are okay with the rules and regulations, we can choose to stay at the job. If not, we can go elsewhere.

There are rules at my job that I don't care for, but overall, I'm very happy there. If it ever gets to a point where there is more I dislike than I like, I'll consider leaving and going elsewhere. I have the freedom to do that.

[Singuy]

I still don't see this as a freedom issue because every single Amazon employee has the freedom to not work there. No government official is coming to their home and forcing them into servitude for Amazon. They chose those jobs. The tech being told not to use his cell phone at work chose that job and continues to choose it every day. He could freshen up his resume and start looking for a better job. As msomnipotent mentioned, he could also start his own company and work for himself. We are free to make our own choices. If we are okay with the rules and regulations, we can choose to stay at the job. If not, we can go elsewhere.

There are rules at my job that I don't care for, but overall, I'm very happy there. If it ever gets to a point where there is more I dislike than I like, I'll consider leaving and going elsewhere. I have the freedom to do that.

Yes you have the freedom to choose, but going from one place that monitors you to another that monitors you is not much of a choice. Like you said, every company that values maximizing profits by extracting as much production out of their employees as possible will enforce these rules.

Your other options are to start your own business(which again I said you need the proper sacrifice), go back to school in which you can leave lower income work that pits you against drones to judge your production, or just stay on government aid. A doctor follows less rules(or get away with more) vs a janitor.

The point is, the majority of Americans with a median household income of 53k is telling me they are in the kind of jobs with high amount of monitoring because they are treated no better than robots.

[corn18]

I think it is silly to extrapolate what one company is doing to all companies.

[Singuy]

I think it is silly to extrapolate what one company is doing to all companies.

It's not extrapolating what one company do, buy it's about how employees are monitored in low paying jobs vs high paying jobs. The lower you are on this corporate ladder the less autonomy you have. The majority of Americans or people across the world unfortunately are in this category. Makes sense when the majority of the people are responsible for the dirty work to make the corporate world turn.

[disneysteve]

The point is, the majority of Americans with a median household income of 53k is telling me they are in the kind of jobs with high amount of monitoring because they are treated no better than robots.

Do you have any links or data to support the theory that the majority of folks are subject to the kind of intense monitoring you are describing here. I must say this is the first I've heard of it.

[Singuy]

Do you have any links or data to support the theory that the majority of folks are subject to the kind of intense monitoring you are describing here. I must say this is the first I've heard of it.

Monitoring employees is standard practice and it's literally the job description of a supervisor. Intense monitoring is a matter of subjectivity. One may find your style intense and another may find it lax.

The point of this thread is I find it ironic Americans put zero value on financial independent, even though it can literally improve their quality of freedom by a large amount. All those documentaries about how the U.S encourages debt to form some kind of financial slavery is all self inflicted.

[disneysteve]

It's not extrapolating what one company do, buy it's about how employees are monitored in low paying jobs vs high paying jobs. The lower you are on this corporate ladder the less autonomy you have.

I would certainly agree with that.

Monitoring employees is standard practice and it's literally the job description of a supervisor. Intense monitoring is a matter of subjectivity. One may find your style intense and another may find it lax.

The point of this thread is I find it ironic Americans put zero value on financial independent, even though it can literally improve their quality of freedom by a large amount. All those documentaries about how the U.S encourages debt to form some kind of financial slavery is all self inflicted.

I think this is generally true as well. As we talk about here all the time, most people's financial problems are self-induced. They could be doing better, sometimes phenomenally better, if they put their minds to it and took the reins instead of placing blame everywhere but with themselves.

As a doctor, I could say the exact same thing about physical health rather than financial health. So much of what I see and treat every day is self-induced, brought on by poor diet, sedentary lifestyle, smoking, excessive drinking, non-compliance, etc.

People like to play the victim when they are the only ones with the freedom and power to improve their situation much of the time.

[TexasHusker]

I think we are increasingly in the mood for a charitable dictator.

Folks can't think or take responsibility any more. It's always someone else's fault I'm dumb, broke, or sick.

We can't handle or freedoms any more, they are driving us to destruction.