what price is on your freedom

[Smallsteps]

I saw videos of protests in at least 2 states today. The citizens of these states feel the elected class is taking things too far and in the more I read or see I would have to agree.
I am not much of a join a protest kind I really dislike crowds due to a bad experience, but I am ready should a protest come to my state i will be there.

Each day I see the Sweden model of asking only those vulnerable or compromised to shelter in place or quarantine looking like the more sensible way to go.
Much like those who have not followed the GUIDELINES to shelter in place there most likely would have been those whom denied they had any health risk as well. That would be their roll of the dice and not my business.

Ruining peoples lively hood for perhaps a much longer time throwing many back into or perhaps for the first time into poverty is a huge price to flatten a curve that each day people seem to debate if or how well it worked.
Poverty kills but no one is listing that as even a contributing factor to beef up their #s
Because POVERTY is big business for politicians and those administrating programs.... that were never designed to end poverty but to carefully nurture and grow it.


I heard 2 governors today saying items aloud that I seriously wanted to scream is ANYONE listening to this ????

first one with a direct question said " I NEVER considered only having the high risk pool quarantine, just never thought about it"

the second one with a direct question said he " did not consider the bill of rights before taking the action he did" also could not deny that liquor stores are more Essential then houses of worship because liquor stores generate TAX revenue.

Seriously if this is not alarming i simply wonder what it would take for some to say " ENOUGH"
I know many feel for the dead but what about all those who died for freedom that some are so willing to just give up listening to people who would say items like these examples.
What is the price of you to roll over and live in ORWELL'S 1984?

[disneysteve]

first one with a direct question said " I NEVER considered only having the high risk pool quarantine, just never thought about it"

Nor should they have thought about it because it wouldn't accomplish anything. That's the whole point of the social distancing and shut downs. If only the "high risk" people quarantined themselves, no flattening of the curve would have occurred.

[bjl584]

At some point statistically, shutting down everything will cause more damage than a spreading pandemic.
Trouble is, no one knows where that point is.

Hindsight says that some of the things that were done were too extreme and an overreaction.
But, when this occurred, no one could have known that.
It's hard to solve for X when you don't have any other parts of the equation to work with as a starting point.

[disneysteve]

Hindsight says that some of the things that were done were too extreme and an overreaction.

If, in hindsight, actions taken look like an overreaction, then those moves were right on the mark. That's basically how it works. If it doesn't look like an overreaction, it wasn't sufficient.

[Smallsteps]

At some point statistically, shutting down everything will cause more damage than a spreading pandemic.
Trouble is, no one knows where that point is.

Hindsight says that some of the things that were done were too extreme and an overreaction.
But, when this occurred, no one could have known that.
It's hard to solve for X when you don't have any other parts of the equation to work with as a starting point.

Exactly there is a point where you need to redo the equation as you get some of the other parts filled in NOT just GUESS and defend a wrong answer no matter what ..... Far too many just want to justify their original conclusion, regardless of the new information. no matter how you spin it 2+3 does not equal 4
Being a leader is admitting if you are going down a wrong path and re navigating not just ranting that this was right.

[disneysteve]

Exactly there is a point where you need to redo the equation as you get some of the other parts filled in NOT just GUESS and defend a wrong answer no matter what ..... Far too many just want to justify their original conclusion, regardless of the new information. no matter how you spin it 2+3 does not equal 4
Being a leader is admitting if you are going down a wrong path and re navigating not just ranting that this was right.

Absolutely. So much of what's being done has been changing on a daily basis. Masks are a perfect example. First they said the public doesn't need to wear them. Then as more info came out, they changed the recommendation and now say everyone should wear them. As a result, many states have made it the law now that you must wear them. That's the case here in NJ.

It's all a constantly evolving situation.

[Smallsteps]

Nor should they have thought about it because it wouldn't accomplish anything. That's the whole point of the social distancing and shut downs. If only the "high risk" people quarantined themselves, no flattening of the curve would have occurred.

There are other countries that only had the most vulnerable stay home there amount of infection is lower and per capita their deaths are lower...... yet some still scream " it would have never worked" Are their numbers wrong ? what is the difference genetics? or longitude and latitude ?

The TRUTH is we will never know for sure. The road not taken.

I remember a previous discussion when a person replied and quoted the CDC guidelines about it is only a risk if you had close long term like 6 hour exposure ..........
now people are opening deliveries outside of their house with gloves and mask......................... but I am SURE the first guideline is/ was correct.

This is ever changing and those who tell you THEY know, we MUST do this, Nothing else works, and that is the ONLY way.............. are either mistaken or lying.

[disneysteve]

This is ever changing and those who tell you THEY know, we MUST do this, Nothing else works, and that is the ONLY way.............. are either mistaken or lying.

We can only work with the facts we have at any given moment. That's the only option there is. As the facts change, the advice may change. This is a brand new issue that nobody anywhere has ever encountered before. I can tell you that our policies and procedures in healthcare have evolved numerous times since this started a couple of months ago. Our screening process, registration process, rooming process, mask and PPE policies, return to work policies, and more have all changed repeatedly as new information became available.

I don't think what was being done early on was knowingly wrong or that anyone was lying. It was just based on extremely limited information.

[ua_guy]

I saw videos of protests in at least 2 states today. The citizens of these states feel the elected class is taking things too far and in the more I read or see I would have to agree.
I am not much of a join a protest kind I really dislike crowds due to a bad experience, but I am ready should a protest come to my state i will be there.

Each day I see the Sweden model of asking only those vulnerable or compromised to shelter in place or quarantine looking like the more sensible way to go.
Much like those who have not followed the GUIDELINES to shelter in place there most likely would have been those whom denied they had any health risk as well. That would be their roll of the dice and not my business.

Ruining peoples lively hood for perhaps a much longer time throwing many back into or perhaps for the first time into poverty is a huge price to flatten a curve that each day people seem to debate if or how well it worked.
Poverty kills but no one is listing that as even a contributing factor to beef up their #s
Because POVERTY is big business for politicians and those administrating programs.... that were never designed to end poverty but to carefully nurture and grow it.


I heard 2 governors today saying items aloud that I seriously wanted to scream is ANYONE listening to this ????

first one with a direct question said " I NEVER considered only having the high risk pool quarantine, just never thought about it"

the second one with a direct question said he " did not consider the bill of rights before taking the action he did" also could not deny that liquor stores are more Essential then houses of worship because liquor stores generate TAX revenue.

Seriously if this is not alarming i simply wonder what it would take for some to say " ENOUGH"
I know many feel for the dead but what about all those who died for freedom that some are so willing to just give up listening to people who would say items like these examples.
What is the price of you to roll over and live in ORWELL'S 1984?

I understand people's fear and discomfort. I don't understand willfully exposing one's self and others in "protest". That's what unintelligent people do. There are ways to protest; willfully spreading disease is more akin to an act of terrorism.

I often wonder how someone comes to believe their own "common sense" suddenly carries more weight than the advice of world-reknown health experts who's life purpose is to study and understand infectious disease. Their recommendations are above all else to preserve life. People understand that, right?

It needs to be understood that believing "the cure is worse than the virus" IS putting a price and timeline on human life. Distancing is the only known cure at this point. Your need to work weighs no more than someone who needs distancing.

Without national direction, states and municipalities are taking their own initiative. Many of these initiatives are voluntary. However, distancing, shutdown, reducing contact -- these things suggest the efforts are working, and are even more effective in places where large percentages of the population are following guidelines.

There is no "rolling over and living in Orwell's 1984". It's just keeping distance and altering patterns that encourage spread of disease. Literally, it is that simple, and there is nothing beneath the surface there.

[disneysteve]

I understand people's fear and discomfort. I don't understand willfully exposing one's self and others in "protest". That's what unintelligent people do. There are ways to protest; willfully spreading disease is more akin to an act of terrorism.

I often wonder how someone comes to believe their own "common sense" suddenly carries more weight than the advice of world-reknown health experts who's life purpose is to study and understand infectious disease. Their recommendations are above all else to preserve life. People understand that, right?

The people protesting don't understand that. The people in charge in DC don't understand that. Did you see photos from the protests? Take a look at them and you'll notice something. A great many of the protestors were wearing a certain red hat.

This isn't about science or facts or saving lives. It's about politics.

I read an article a couple of days ago that said the following, and I'm quoting:
"many of Trump's allies in the conservative media have fueled calls for Fauci's ouster, painting him as overly focused on the health aspects of the coronavirus crisis and not attuned to Americans' economic suffering."

So they are upset that DOCTOR Fauci is focused on the HEALTH aspects of a PANDEMIC rather than the economic impact. That's quite literally HIS JOB, and for that they think he should be fired. It's mind boggling how our society has developed such an incredible disdain for science and facts and knowledge.

[Smallsteps]

I understand people's fear and discomfort. I don't understand willfully exposing one's self and others in "protest". That's what unintelligent people do. There are ways to protest; willfully spreading disease is more akin to an act of terrorism.

I often wonder how someone comes to believe their own "common sense" suddenly carries more weight than the advice of world-reknown health experts who's life purpose is to study and understand infectious disease. Their recommendations are above all else to preserve life. People understand that, right?

It needs to be understood that believing "the cure is worse than the virus" IS putting a price and timeline on human life. Distancing is the only known cure at this point. Your need to work weighs no more than someone who needs distancing.

Without national direction, states and municipalities are taking their own initiative. Many of these initiatives are voluntary. However, distancing, shutdown, reducing contact -- these things suggest the efforts are working, and are even more effective in places where large percentages of the population are following guidelines.

There is no "rolling over and living in Orwell's 1984". It's just keeping distance and altering patterns that encourage spread of disease. Literally, it is that simple, and there is nothing beneath the surface there.

I find it a false flag to decide with ZERO data everyone that may protest is SPREADING the virus. How do you or anyone else KNOW that? ..............remember the tests have NOT been done.Maybe these are people whom have had the virus and got over a mild or asymptomatic case? If they recovered and want to move on since presumably according to experts they have antibodies. THERE are MANY that have come through.
Nope instead, to deflect we must make them out as the walking dead just hoping to sicken people and calling it an act of terrorism seems like more fear mongering or just ludicrous

World- known health "experts" have been WRONG on this very disease....... but we must TRUST them no matter what ..... questioning when things are not adding up is needed and NOT wrong..
The experts ADMIT they are lIberal with how they are counting deaths as maybe related and I am surprised so many are OK with that.
How will the experts make Informed studies and conclusions after the fact with admitted flawed data? no one KNOWS how many asymptomatic recovered people are out there instead we must all stay in and ASSUME no one except those who EXPERTS say is safe or non contagious.

Many have reluctantly played along and followed the guidelines to flatten the curve to get through this faster .........BUT each time someone suggests that it may be time to ease up and move on they move the goalposts or decide something else is contagious even saying they are NOT sure if those who have either Officially or (not tested) recovered are really not.

States are supposed to do things for themselves and i would like to see some THOUGHT put in to it as opposed to "hey that guy just had a presser" schedule one for me i want national air time to say i am doing the same thing.

[Petunia 100]

I find it a false flag to decide with ZERO data everyone that may protest is SPREADING the virus. How do you or anyone else KNOW that? ..............remember the tests have NOT been done.Maybe these are people whom have had the virus and got over a mild or asymptomatic case? If they recovered and want to move on since presumably according to experts they have antibodies. THERE are MANY that have come through.
Nope instead, to deflect we must make them out as the walking dead just hoping to sicken people and calling it an act of terrorism seems like more fear mongering or just ludicrous

World- known health "experts" have been WRONG on this very disease....... but we must TRUST them no matter what ..... questioning when things are not adding up is needed and NOT wrong..
The experts ADMIT they are lIberal with how they are counting deaths as maybe related and I am surprised so many are OK with that.
How will the experts make Informed studies and conclusions after the fact with admitted flawed data? no one KNOWS how many asymptomatic recovered people are out there instead we must all stay in and ASSUME no one except those who EXPERTS say is safe or non contagious.

Many have reluctantly played along and followed the guidelines to flatten the curve to get through this faster .........BUT each time someone suggests that it may be time to ease up and move on they move the goalposts or decide something else is contagious even saying they are NOT sure if those who have either Officially or (not tested) recovered are really not.

States are supposed to do things for themselves and i would like to see some THOUGHT put in to it as opposed to "hey that guy just had a presser" schedule one for me i want national air time to say i am doing the same thing.

Personally, I think it is appropriate for doctors and scientists, rather then politicians, to set the pace.

[disneysteve]

When we are playing with people's lives, I'm okay erring on the side of caution.

The experts ADMIT they are lIberal with how they are counting deaths as maybe related and I am surprised so many are OK with that.

Do you realize that Cause of Death is never an exact science. It's very often just an educated guess. When I had to fill out a death certificate for a patient of mine who had died at home, it was just a guess based on what I knew of their medical history. Maybe they had a heart attack. Maybe they had a stroke. I could never be sure. If somebody is hospitalized and tests positive for COVID and then passes away, was that the cause? Maybe.

[kork13]

Personally, I think it is appropriate for doctors and scientists, rather then politicians, to set the pace.

I disagree, under all conditions -- COVID or not. A country runs on more than it's health, or its economy, or its military defense, or on any other single factor. It's entirely inappropriate for a medical or science advisor to drive the actions of any country.

However, those doctors & scientists SHOULD be trusted advisors, regardless of the political expediency of their recommendations. LEADERSHIP, informed of and considering all of the various factors involved in protecting this country and its people, is required to "set the pace." That likely means moderating the recommendations of all medical, scientific, economic, military, and yes, even political advisors, and arriving at a middle solution to mitigate ALL applicable risks as best as feasible to protect & keep the country moving forward. Like 'em or hate 'em, POTUS & state governors need to be the ones making decisions for their respective spheres of influence & authority.

That never changes. Situations change, and decision-making processes must change in response. But leadership is a constant.

[Petunia 100]

I disagree, under all conditions -- COVID or not. A country runs on more than it's health, or its economy, or its military defense, or on any other single factor. It's entirely inappropriate for a medical or science advisor to drive the actions of any country.

However, those doctors & scientists SHOULD be trusted advisors, regardless of the political expediency of their recommendations. LEADERSHIP, informed of and considering all of the various factors involved in protecting this country and its people, is required to "set the pace." That likely means moderating the recommendations of all medical, scientific, economic, military, and yes, even political advisors, and arriving at a middle solution to mitigate ALL applicable risks as best as feasible to protect & keep the country moving forward. Like 'em or hate 'em, POTUS & state governors need to be the ones making decisions for their respective spheres of influence & authority.

That never changes. Situations change, and decision-making processes must change in response. But leadership is a constant.

You are entitled to disagree; doesn't change my opinion at all.

In case it was unclear, I was not advocating that doctors and scientists stage a coup and forcibly seize control of our government. Rather, I think it is appropriate for politicians to defer to those who are more knowledgeable regarding matters outside of their own expertise.