Why I'm not a Ramseyite

[Nutria]

Barely enough to live on equals vacations aren't even in the discussion.

Sure it does. That's because there are even lower income levels. For example:

1. Only enough to live on. (No wiggle room for vacations.)
2. Not enough to live on. (Less than wiggle room for vacations.)

Thus, it's demonstrated that "barely enough to live on" does have the wiggle room for carefully planned, anti-extravagant, no-waste vacations.

[Gailete]

I wasn't questioning your son. I was just questioning your statement. And not even maliciously.

You may have not meant to be malicious, but it still sounded like that.

I stand by my statement, though. Barely enough to live on equals vacations aren't even in the discussion.

Nutria stated

Sure it does. That's because there are even lower income levels. For example:
Only enough to live on. (No wiggle room for vacations.)
Not enough to live on. (Less than wiggle room for vacations.)

Thus, it's demonstrated that "barely enough to live on" does have the wiggle room for carefully planned, anti-extravagant, no-waste vacations.

On another thread, you posted your budget, I know you are living on the barely to not enough to live on spectrum. In your current expense column you have an expense for pets at $40. My son would love to have a cat, but he knows he can't afford it now. As your expense for the pet disappears if your wife stops working, what is going to happen to the pet/s? Same with a lot of the other items on the list, such as therapy, that disappears. Does this mean that whoever is getting the therapy is suddenly not going to be needing it. You apparently are trying to show some sensible reductions in expenses, but just wishing them away doesn't make them go away. Some of those reductions seem like they are possibly coming too late (not the therapy), but things like pets. It seems a good idea at the time, but there seems to be no good way to back out of a pet arrangement. However long you have had pets for, they have slowly been chipping away at your budget. If you look for it you can get a plane ticket for the cost of $40 x 12months = $240. I think DisneySteve showed that the other day how those things can flucuate in costs. So my son, many times just getting by, has looked at his goals including the costs of those goals, and made decisions. He didn't and hasn't yet gotten a cat because to get one would take money from the pot that finances some of his 'dreams' and puts it permanently into the cat column. That is partly how barely getting by happens. He is getting by and then finding yet more ways to boost his income so instead of only getting by he has some more. And he tries not to trap himself into ongoing every month expenses.

You have a budget of $100/month towards Christmas which comes to $1200/year. I had two kids so we were a 4 person family like yourselves. Even including friends/relatives when we had to, etc. I have never in my life spent that much or even half of that much for Christmas! Maybe on a very rare year, $300 if that. This year I maybe spent $50. I have ways of getting gifts for free or buying items like new at our thrift store. My son also doesn't spend much for Christmas. As mentioned, he earns gift cards, etc. doing surveys on line. You and your wife could do that. You might not have everything you are used to, but it doesn't mean it has to be a sad Christmas. I grew up in a home where my 'big' Christmas present was a new flannel nightgown that my mother made me assuming she didn't give it to me on my October birthday.

Every family, whether a family of one, or of 10, needs to make the best decisions for themselves. When you aren't getting by, you have to shed everything or as most people do, they pull out the plastic and hope someday that their ship will come in. Along with shedding expenses you have to pick up more income. I'm working on that. My son doesn't budget for the parttime temp work, until he actually gets called in and then he has to see how long a shift that he works. Last Saturday he only got about 4 hours, but he was tired as he had helped a family move earlier in the day so it was enough in my opinion, but if he could have tired or not, he would have worked till midnight. But the extra he picks up that he can not depend on, pushes him from just getting by to barely getting by a bit better, so that he has the necessities and a little extra left over. It is his choice what he spends that extra on. He likes the idea of a little vacation, and if family members will put him up, other than the gas to get there or airfair, it is cheap.

You folks have things in your budget that aren't on ours at all as we just can't maintain on a monthly basis, such as any internet TV. We have rabbit ears that were a one shot $40 expense years ago and to make them really classy they are wrapped in foil. But that is all we need, and so a $300 and way more expensive TV streaming things isn't in our budget and hasn't been, we don't have to worry about paying monthly. Neither of your family or mine can afford it, but we recognized it long ago, you are still paying for it monthly. But that is your choice.

I can see the problems that you are running into (I'm old and have lived through a lot), and I have tried very much to help. However, quibbling about semantics and whether or not someone barely getting by can afford an occasional plane ticket (I think he has flown 2-3 times), isn't really that productive, except to see that personal, well thought through decisions can make the difference in what you can or can't do. And what your lifestyle will be.

[Radiohead1]

You may have not meant to be malicious, but it still sounded like that.



Nutria stated

On another thread, you posted your budget, I know you are living on the barely to not enough to live on spectrum. In your current expense column you have an expense for pets at $40. My son would love to have a cat, but he knows he can't afford it now. As your expense for the pet disappears if your wife stops working, what is going to happen to the pet/s? Same with a lot of the other items on the list, such as therapy, that disappears. Does this mean that whoever is getting the therapy is suddenly not going to be needing it. You apparently are trying to show some sensible reductions in expenses, but just wishing them away doesn't make them go away. Some of those reductions seem like they are possibly coming too late (not the therapy), but things like pets. It seems a good idea at the time, but there seems to be no good way to back out of a pet arrangement. However long you have had pets for, they have slowly been chipping away at your budget. If you look for it you can get a plane ticket for the cost of $40 x 12months = $240. I think DisneySteve showed that the other day how those things can flucuate in costs. So my son, many times just getting by, has looked at his goals including the costs of those goals, and made decisions. He didn't and hasn't yet gotten a cat because to get one would take money from the pot that finances some of his 'dreams' and puts it permanently into the cat column. That is partly how barely getting by happens. He is getting by and then finding yet more ways to boost his income so instead of only getting by he has some more. And he tries not to trap himself into ongoing every month expenses.

You have a budget of $100/month towards Christmas which comes to $1200/year. I had two kids so we were a 4 person family like yourselves. Even including friends/relatives when we had to, etc. I have never in my life spent that much or even half of that much for Christmas! Maybe on a very rare year, $300 if that. This year I maybe spent $50. I have ways of getting gifts for free or buying items like new at our thrift store. My son also doesn't spend much for Christmas. As mentioned, he earns gift cards, etc. doing surveys on line. You and your wife could do that. You might not have everything you are used to, but it doesn't mean it has to be a sad Christmas. I grew up in a home where my 'big' Christmas present was a new flannel nightgown that my mother made me assuming she didn't give it to me on my October birthday.

Every family, whether a family of one, or of 10, needs to make the best decisions for themselves. When you aren't getting by, you have to shed everything or as most people do, they pull out the plastic and hope someday that their ship will come in. Along with shedding expenses you have to pick up more income. I'm working on that. My son doesn't budget for the parttime temp work, until he actually gets called in and then he has to see how long a shift that he works. Last Saturday he only got about 4 hours, but he was tired as he had helped a family move earlier in the day so it was enough in my opinion, but if he could have tired or not, he would have worked till midnight. But the extra he picks up that he can not depend on, pushes him from just getting by to barely getting by a bit better, so that he has the necessities and a little extra left over. It is his choice what he spends that extra on. He likes the idea of a little vacation, and if family members will put him up, other than the gas to get there or airfair, it is cheap.

You folks have things in your budget that aren't on ours at all as we just can't maintain on a monthly basis, such as any internet TV. We have rabbit ears that were a one shot $40 expense years ago and to make them really classy they are wrapped in foil. But that is all we need, and so a $300 and way more expensive TV streaming things isn't in our budget and hasn't been, we don't have to worry about paying monthly. Neither of your family or mine can afford it, but we recognized it long ago, you are still paying for it monthly. But that is your choice.

I can see the problems that you are running into (I'm old and have lived through a lot), and I have tried very much to help. However, quibbling about semantics and whether or not someone barely getting by can afford an occasional plane ticket (I think he has flown 2-3 times), isn't really that productive, except to see that personal, well thought through decisions can make the difference in what you can or can't do. And what your lifestyle will be.

I think the bottom line is that the budget I posted vs. the budget with 1 income is a reflection of what will have to go first. The items in blue were things that were ultimately discretionary vs. what is a hard set budget item that can't be adjusted. Notice the first things to go were the discretionary items and entertainment, like sling. Obviously we are not going to be able to just choose to get rid of car repairs, so the reality becomes those expenses either come out of the emergency fund or someone picks up additional income to pay for them.

The Christmas fund is actually a Christmas fund for half the year and then a gift/travel fund for the other half. We use it to pay for small trips like going to Gatlinburg where my parents have a second home. Or to pay for auxiliary items like gas and spending money on the occasion that my parents invite us on an otherwise paid for vacation (which they do periodically because they can rent a house on the panhandle coast of Florida with 2 bedrooms similarly in cost to what they would for a 1 bedroom). As far as Christmas goes, I would rather sacrifice other places and have a $500-$600 Christmas (which isn't very extravagant at all). If you noticed, with 1 income I cut that in half.

The big thing that would free up money in our budget would be paying off the debt. We owe $4k on the car and $13k on the student loan. Then $7.5k on the credit card (accumulated mostly for copays, medical bills and kid expenses). $750 of a $3800 budget is a big deal.

I guess I am just frustrated because I went to school for 6 years and have a lower income than many people that just piddled around in high school and went to work. Maybe it's a me problem or whatever but all that effort seems for naught. And I'm not the only one. It's widely documented that millenials that went to college are saddled with huge student loan debts (our $13k balance is meager compared to most) with few prospects for reasonable income. I consider myself lucky as I was able to get a job in my field after graduating in 2007 (probably one of the 3 worst years to graduate in the past 30-40 years).

That's my rant for today.

[Nutria]

I guess I am just frustrated because I went to school for 6 years and have a lower income than many people that just piddled around in high school and went to work. Maybe it's a me problem or whatever but all that effort seems for naught. And I'm not the only one. It's widely documented that millenials that went to college are saddled with huge student loan debts (our $13k balance is meager compared to most) with few prospects for reasonable income.

I can't help but ask what your degree (and Masters?) is in.

[Radiohead1]

I can't help but ask what your degree (and Masters?) is in.

Architecture.

[disneysteve]

I think the bottom line is that the budget I posted vs. the budget with 1 income is a reflection of what will have to go first. The items in blue were things that were ultimately discretionary vs. what is a hard set budget item that can't be adjusted. Notice the first things to go were the discretionary items and entertainment, like sling. Obviously we are not going to be able to just choose to get rid of car repairs, so the reality becomes those expenses either come out of the emergency fund or someone picks up additional income to pay for them.

The Christmas fund is actually a Christmas fund for half the year and then a gift/travel fund for the other half. We use it to pay for small trips like going to Gatlinburg where my parents have a second home. Or to pay for auxiliary items like gas and spending money on the occasion that my parents invite us on an otherwise paid for vacation (which they do periodically because they can rent a house on the panhandle coast of Florida with 2 bedrooms similarly in cost to what they would for a 1 bedroom). As far as Christmas goes, I would rather sacrifice other places and have a $500-$600 Christmas (which isn't very extravagant at all). If you noticed, with 1 income I cut that in half.

The big thing that would free up money in our budget would be paying off the debt. We owe $4k on the car and $13k on the student loan. Then $7.5k on the credit card (accumulated mostly for copays, medical bills and kid expenses). $750 of a $3800 budget is a big deal.

It's pretty ironic that this post appears in a thread about Dave Ramsey. Have you and your wife given any thought to actually following Dave's plan? You are struggling with debt but your budget still includes a bunch of discretionary spending. Dave's plan is pretty straightforward. It's hard core and certainly not any fun to follow but it can and will fix your problem.

1. $1,000 starter emergency fund
2. Pay off all debt except the mortgage
3. Build EF to 3-6 months of expenses
4. Invest 15% for retirement
5. College funding for children
6. Pay off the mortgage
7. Build wealth and give

The two of you need to decide that you've had enough. Once you do, you can cut out all of the stuff that is standing in your way. Netflix, Sling, spending hundreds on Christmas, taking trips to Gatlinburg, etc.

You've also mentioned repeatedly picking up additional income. Why haven't you done that already? You need those extra dollars right now, not at some point in the future. If there is work available, take it. And there is always work available.

I honestly don't think your situation is all that bad. You both just need to get in the mindset that it's time to clean up the mess. Once you get on that path, I think you'll feel so much better, less stress, sleep better at night, etc.

[Gailete]

I guess I am just frustrated because I went to school for 6 years and have a lower income than many people that just piddled around in high school and went to work. Maybe it's a me problem or whatever but all that effort seems for naught. And I'm not the only one. It's widely documented that millenials that went to college are saddled with huge student loan debts (our $13k balance is meager compared to most) with few prospects for reasonable income. I consider myself lucky as I was able to get a job in my field after graduating in 2007 (probably one of the 3 worst years to graduate in the past 30-40 years).

I have both a 4-year Bachelor's degree and then an additional 2 years later to become a nurse. May not be a Master's degree, but the highest income I was ever at was about $35K/year the year I had to go on disability. It was a good thing I was already frugal. Since SS never makes any promises that they will replace your income. They just keep you from starving.

Wasting time being frustrated, is just wasted time. Much more important to try to make plans to deal with the situation. Thinking/knowing that you are worth more money is an exercise in futility. Way too many people think that they should be making more, and they are so busy staying up with the Jones' (not implying that you are) is sinking their household budgets big time. You can't spend your way to a higher income! It sure seems though that others are trying to do that. One of the biggest problems that I see with the so called 'Millennials' is many of them grew up in higher economic levels than their parents did, and when they went to college and then graduated they seem to think that they should instantly have what their parent worked decades for. And parents go along with that myth.

I was reading an article at one point talking about a daughter that was a full-time teacher, but because her income was so LOW, around $30K at the time I was reading the article, her parents let her live at home since she 'couldn't afford to live on her' own yet. I was shocked as that year our income for the two of use was in the $24k area. I wondered when she would eventually have enough income to be able to 'afford' to live on her own?

Historically college grads never moved into great apartments or houses, following graduation. That came after years of saving. And most of them didn't have college loans sitting on their heads. Seems the biggest class kids in HS and also repeat it again for college kids should be on how to live within your means. When I was in college, this was a mandatory seminar that we got to go to and each of us also received the speakers book for free. I believe it was called, "Living on Less, and Liking it More".

[Radiohead1]

It's pretty ironic that this post appears in a thread about Dave Ramsey. Have you and your wife given any thought to actually following Dave's plan? You are struggling with debt but your budget still includes a bunch of discretionary spending. Dave's plan is pretty straightforward. It's hard core and certainly not any fun to follow but it can and will fix your problem.

1. $1,000 starter emergency fund
2. Pay off all debt except the mortgage
3. Build EF to 3-6 months of expenses
4. Invest 15% for retirement
5. College funding for children
6. Pay off the mortgage
7. Build wealth and give

The two of you need to decide that you've had enough. Once you do, you can cut out all of the stuff that is standing in your way. Netflix, Sling, spending hundreds on Christmas, taking trips to Gatlinburg, etc.

You've also mentioned repeatedly picking up additional income. Why haven't you done that already? You need those extra dollars right now, not at some point in the future. If there is work available, take it. And there is always work available.

I honestly don't think your situation is all that bad. You both just need to get in the mindset that it's time to clean up the mess. Once you get on that path, I think you'll feel so much better, less stress, sleep better at night, etc.

Doing my taxes this year.


We grossed $70,497

Had healthcare expenses of $16,622
Federal taxes of $3,597
State Taxes of $3,441
Local Taxes of $1,253
Medicare & SS of $5,393

Net of $40,191

Federal refund of $1,446 state of $681

That leaves is $42,318 in our pockets. That means 40% of our income went to taxes withheld from our paycheck and healthcare costs.

$4,349 went to mortgage interest, $1,081 in property taxes, $1,581 in student loan interest.

That leaves $35,307 to pay towards other debt and live on.

Now I am not saying that some of this isn't our own doing (paying that much in taxes is certainly not something I would openly volunteer for, given the choice and I'm not sure the medical costs could be argued as our own "choice") but $35,307 (half of our gross income) is not exactly a lot to live on a pay off debt. I would guesstimate that all in all, someone able to get a gig living off the government (aka on the dole) is "making" about that much in their benefits. Maybe more. Free healthcare and $50 in housing with a utility allowance and free food adds up quick.

[disneysteve]

We grossed $70,497

Sorry but I totally don't understand why you quoted my post here. Your reply has nothing at all to do with what I said. I asked if you've considered doing the Dave Ramsey plan to clean up your debt issue.

Sorry you got hit with big medical bills last year. I hope whatever condition caused that is better now so that going forward, that won't be a concern. Obviously when a medical malady strikes, that can throw the whole budget out of whack.

[Gailete]

Federal refund of $1,446 state of $681

Those add up to $2127 for the year, or $177/month. Why are you letting the government take that money and use it for a year interest free. You need to adjust your withholding at work and add in the little one on the way. That should give you about $150+ more per month to deal with your expenses.

[Radiohead1]

Sorry but I totally don't understand why you quoted my post here. Your reply has nothing at all to do with what I said. I asked if you've considered doing the Dave Ramsey plan to clean up your debt issue.

Sorry you got hit with big medical bills last year. I hope whatever condition caused that is better now so that going forward, that won't be a concern. Obviously when a medical malady strikes, that can throw the whole budget out of whack.

I quoted your post because we have no margin to do the Dave Ramsey plan. I have ulcerative colitis so our medical expenses are pretty much always going to be maxed at the deductible.

[disneysteve]

I quoted your post because we have no margin to do the Dave Ramsey plan.

$200/month estimated reduction in food spending
$100/month Christmas saving
$80/month clothing
$40/month haircuts
$20/month allowance
$40/month miscellaneous
$14/month Netflix
$26/month Sling
$20/month gym

I don't know about you but I see at least a $540/month margin for you to do the Dave Ramsey plan. The key is that YOU need to see that as well.

[disneysteve]

I quoted your post because we have no margin to do the Dave Ramsey plan.

In addition to the above, you've posted that you think you could earn about 12K additional if you work more. So your net from that would be 100% available to go toward your debt reduction plan.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I'm going to nitpick. You just made $70k.

You paid $3597-1446 = $2151 in FEDERAL TAXES 3.05% in federal taxes!!!
State $3441-681 = $2760 in state taxes for 3.91% state taxes!

You paid local taxes $1251 = 1.77% local
SS 6.2% and medicare 1.45%

You did not pay a lot in taxes. And you aren't living in a HCOLA you can't be with that mortgage interest, property taxes, etc

I hate to say it but it's super easy I've found to live on $3k/month for a family of 4 not including a mortgage. And that's eating out etc. But heck I haven't looked at your budget. Maybe I will look at the other thread. But seriously you aren't paying a ton in taxes. You are in a pretty sweet spot of 2 kids and under $100k.

I'd rather be in your spot than making $35k/year and paying SS and Medicare on that and raising a family of 4 on that. Trust me it's not pretty. I struggled making $40k/year with DH and I making $20k/year each and it was HARD. No room for anything extra and every penny was scraped to cover emergencies. We did not eat out, we did not go out for fun, we worked a lot. So no it's NOT fun to live on poverty level and it was poverty level since we lived in southern california. Very HCOLA. Don't think living on government dole is exactly great either.

Doing my taxes this year.


We grossed $70,497

Had healthcare expenses of $16,622
Federal taxes of $3,597
State Taxes of $3,441
Local Taxes of $1,253
Medicare & SS of $5,393

Net of $40,191

Federal refund of $1,446 state of $681

That leaves is $42,318 in our pockets. That means 40% of our income went to taxes withheld from our paycheck and healthcare costs.

$4,349 went to mortgage interest, $1,081 in property taxes, $1,581 in student loan interest.

That leaves $35,307 to pay towards other debt and live on.

Now I am not saying that some of this isn't our own doing (paying that much in taxes is certainly not something I would openly volunteer for, given the choice and I'm not sure the medical costs could be argued as our own "choice") but $35,307 (half of our gross income) is not exactly a lot to live on a pay off debt. I would guesstimate that all in all, someone able to get a gig living off the government (aka on the dole) is "making" about that much in their benefits. Maybe more. Free healthcare and $50 in housing with a utility allowance and free food adds up quick.

[Gailete]

I quoted your post because we have no margin to do the Dave Ramsey plan. I have ulcerative colitis so our medical expenses are pretty much always going to be maxed at the deductible.

The point of the Dave Ramsey plan isit is for those with NO margin to get started digging out of the hole. A woman and her husband that I know, got out of close to $40K worth of debt by following his plan. They have four boys, not all at home any more I don't think, but I know she doesn't drive, but still managed to hold down about 4 part time jobs, and her husband also had a couple. It took them a couple of years. But they did it because they decided that they wanted to get that 800# gorilla off their back.

The Dave Ramsey plan can help people with all their ducks in a row and $30K in the bank, but it is meant as a way for those to start the digging out process.

I do understand the problem with the cost of Remicade as I get it myself every 6 weeks. Thankfully covered by MC and my MC supplement. Have you discussed any of the newer drugs coming out for UC with your MD and have you applied to the company that makes Remicade for help in paying for it?

The decision making starts with your and your family. Would it really be that bad to miss some ball games for the sake of getting your family on a more sturdy plain financially?