Matter of Opinion - Student Loan Forgiveness under Biden

[myrdale]

You ignored my amnesty example.

I didn't ignore it, I am just not familiar with it, but lets give it a look.

Taxes, penalties, and fees.

Taxes - The government needs to function. I agree. We need interstate infrastructure. We need a military. We need some amount of federal governance. Research, NASA and the like is important. Social security and welfare are needed for those that actually need it. It shouldn't be something you're born into and you stay in for 50 years. Education is a local issue. Utility infrastructure are private or local issues. We should all be contributing the bare minimum to keep all of the items I've listed going.

Penalties - Well these are being assessed for some reason I'd assume. Is this for a criminal infraction? Is this for a late payment of your taxes? Penalties in general are a punishment. Waving that punishment, I am OK with.

Fees - Fees and taxes are a bit blurry. When I renew my car tag, or my hunting license, or drivers license. Are these the fees? These are mostly local. The DMV has to cover its cost as do game wardens. I do not have a problem with programs that remove people from having to pay these, say the disabled or veterans, or elderly.

The person who is paying "little to nothing", should be reminded they need to pay their fair share. People getting $10,000 unearned income credit just blows my mind.

[myrdale]

myrdale in case people haven't noticed, the US is literally in a winter of discontent - resentment and inequality are high right now. Mass debt relief would seem to be a prudent move to avoid further social instability. So, I were Biden, I'd relieve all the debts I possibly could.

"Peoples feelings are hurt and if we don't throw money at them, they might riot."

I am taking the Thumper approach on this one.

[Snicks]

It's more than a matter of opinion when you are taking someone else's money. So, I , who PAID my own debts is now supposed to pay for someone else who chooses not too? Wrong on many levels.

[rennigade]

Why are people who take out student loan penalized but if you borrow too much for a house, car, or charge on CC, you are allowed to declare bankruptcy and walk away? I'm not justifying either situations but I think that it doesn't seem fair that decisions you make at 18 impact the rest of your life more than being completely irresponsible at 30 and buying too much house. Then deciding to let it fall into foreclosure and living here for 18 months without paying a penny then walking away and buying another home. It's HAPPENED to many times. There are even people who did it in the last recession and said it's the way to go. Let your house go then save everything then buy again. Then make your fortune doing it.

So is that any different than borrowing from student loans and having it forgiven?

I dont think any debt should ever be forgiven. Its ridiculous that people can file for bankruptcy, period. I know several people who have spent recklessly and then filed bankruptcy. Its disgusting.

I will say that possibly the only debt that should ever be forgiven is medical emergencies that are out of your control. Even those im leery about.

Sure I do too. But we already allow them to walk away from cars, homes, and credit cards? Are student loans any different?

I have never settled a debt or walked away and it's easy to get on the high road but I see it as if people are allowed to declare bankruptcy and wipe the slate clean why isn't student loans included?

You cant walk away from a degree you have. Once you have it, you have it forever. I guess cars, homes, credit card debt...some of those items can be repossessed and taken away from you, some cannot.

We could always do like other countries and take 50% of everyones paychecks, then socialize things like college and healthcare. I dont know if I would feel comfortable giving up half of my paycheck each pay period.

[rennigade]

It's very true that enrollment is down a lot but that's due to COVID. Many students have opted to take a gap year until things are pretty much back to normal. They didn't want to do their education virtually on Zoom. For schools that are having in-person classes, many people didn't feel comfortable attending. Plus, they didn't want to miss out on everything college has to offer. Even the schools that are open aren't having all of their normal activities, sports, theater, social events, etc.

We'll have to wait and see if enrollment returns to normal once COVID is behind us.

Ehh...not really. Covid certainly didnt help, but enrollment has been on a decline since I started 3 years ago...and apparently its been dropping years prior to that too. At least around my area.

Hopefully we do see enrollment numbers increase after the pandemic is over.

[bjl584]

Enrollment has been declining at my old undergrad school for years now.
A few years back two of the five freshman dorm buildings were vacant and locked due to low enrollment numbers.
College costs have become too high compared to the pay you receive for said degree once you graduate.
At least, in general.
Specialized degrees still command a nice salary, but for everyone else college might not be the answer.

[rennigade]

Enrollment has been declining at my old undergrad school for years now.
A few years back two of the five freshman dorm buildings were vacant and locked due to low enrollment numbers.
College costs have become too high compared to the pay you receive for said degree once you graduate.
At least, in general.
Specialized degrees still command a nice salary, but for everyone else college might not be the answer.

Our university has steadily increased the price of credits every single year. I just dont get it. Enrollment is down, so they increase price. I almost feel like they should make it more affordable for people, so more people choose to come here. It sucks.

[Fishindude77]

Enrollment has been declining at my old undergrad school for years now.
A few years back two of the five freshman dorm buildings were vacant and locked due to low enrollment numbers.
College costs have become too high compared to the pay you receive for said degree once you graduate.
At least, in general.
Specialized degrees still command a nice salary, but for everyone else college might not be the answer.

The whole idea that everyone needs to go to college has been pushed too hard for too long by the educational community.
You are correct, it's too costly for most and a great many of the degrees don't hardly justify the expense. Many kids would be much better served to get out of high school, enter the workforce and start living on their own, supporting themselves, etc. At that age (17-18), most kids could benefit greatly by taking on a job where they got dirty and had to exert themselves some physically, to appreciate where a dollar comes from. Let them sort out what they want to do with their lives / career while earning a living.

Everyone can't punch a keyboard to earn their living every day.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

The whole idea that everyone needs to go to college has been pushed too hard for too long by the educational community.
You are correct, it's too costly for most and a great many of the degrees don't hardly justify the expense. Many kids would be much better served to get out of high school, enter the workforce and start living on their own, supporting themselves, etc. At that age (17-18), most kids could benefit greatly by taking on a job where they got dirty and had to exert themselves some physically, to appreciate where a dollar comes from. Let them sort out what they want to do with their lives / career while earning a living.

Everyone can't punch a keyboard to earn their living every day.

This needs to be pushed more. The problem is now every job "requires" a college degree. So everyone wants one. It's ridiculous. And they have allowed colleges to sprout up so as long as you pay you can get a degree. There is no selectivity. Thus it's making it less valued. Also people have no pushed the idea of community college and doing it economically.

Maybe you can walk away with your degree, but an income basked bankruptcy isn't the end of the world. And people NOW walk away from foreclosures and buy a home in their partner/wife's name immediately and they've used 2 years of non-payments to make the down payment on a new house! So they do it again. And they are allowed to buy another car immediately after repossession. And the people also settle all the time for credit cards. I mean it's even suggested. So how is college loans any different?

In all cases you promised to pay it back but can't.

[rennigade]

This needs to be pushed more. The problem is now every job "requires" a college degree. So everyone wants one. It's ridiculous. And they have allowed colleges to sprout up so as long as you pay you can get a degree. There is no selectivity. Thus it's making it less valued. Also people have no pushed the idea of community college and doing it economically.

Maybe you can walk away with your degree, but an income basked bankruptcy isn't the end of the world. And people NOW walk away from foreclosures and buy a home in their partner/wife's name immediately and they've used 2 years of non-payments to make the down payment on a new house! So they do it again. And they are allowed to buy another car immediately after repossession. And the people also settle all the time for credit cards. I mean it's even suggested. So how is college loans any different?

In all cases you promised to pay it back but can't.

It seems like you established that it doesnt make sense why you can wipe debts of some things, and others you cannot. Do you think that should be changed? Should student loans allowed to be wiped to zero through bankruptcy?

[Fishindude77]

This needs to be pushed more. The problem is now every job "requires" a college degree. So everyone wants one. It's ridiculous. And they have allowed colleges to sprout up so as long as you pay you can get a degree. There is no selectivity. Thus it's making it less valued. Also people have no pushed the idea of community college and doing it economically.

Since when does every job require a college degree?
The majority of jobs in America DO NOT require a degree, and there are a boatload of very high paying jobs and careers where college is not necessary. Heck, lots of good skilled trades jobs can earn $100k or more. Not unusual for truck drivers to earn $60-70k. A factory job at an auto plant is a $70k per year or better job. There are a whole lot of people out there that own their own business and never went to college. I owned a business that did $35 mil worth of revenue per year and 100 employees with two partners, none of us had a college degree.

In America in order to be a public school teacher you are required to have a college degree. So all these teachers are so proud of their educations that they pound it into the minds of our youth that it's a necessity. Meanwhile, the plumber that repaired the teachers toilet makes a much better income than the teacher.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Since when does every job require a college degree?
The majority of jobs in America DO NOT require a degree, and there are a boatload of very high paying jobs and careers where college is not necessary. Heck, lots of good skilled trades jobs can earn $100k or more. Not unusual for truck drivers to earn $60-70k. A factory job at an auto plant is a $70k per year or better job. There are a whole lot of people out there that own their own business and never went to college. I owned a business that did $35 mil worth of revenue per year and 100 employees with two partners, none of us had a college degree.

In America in order to be a public school teacher you are required to have a college degree. So all these teachers are so proud of their educations that they pound it into the minds of our youth that it's a necessity. Meanwhile, the plumber that repaired the teachers toilet makes a much better income than the teacher.

I'm not disagreeing but I'm pointing out that even jobs like an 'office manager" doesn't need a degree people now "expect" a degree. I also agree that most trades pay substantially better, but it's not pushed as a realistic opportunity for people when it should be. But at the same time there have been someone on her talking about how expensive even trade school for her son was/is currently. Substantially more than you would expect. So even in the trades the training which was a lot cheaper and a real return on investment isn't the same.

seems like you established that it doesnt make sense why you can wipe debts of some things, and others you cannot. Do you think that should be changed? Should student loans allowed to be wiped to zero through bankruptcy?

I think that you should be allowed to wipe student loan debt to private lenders because then they wouldn't be so cavalier to loan $100k to an 18-22 year old student. I think you should not be allowed to wipe federal loans. Then we can free market banks who decide to take the risk of loaning to students who can easily wipe way bankruptcy. As mentioned here there are pretty stringent limits on how much you can borrow from the federal government. It's like $8500/year. That means $42k for 4 years of school. Plus the interest on those loans are capped and regulated by the government. So if we just limited it to federal loans and private loans can be bankrupted....maybe lenders would stop treating student loans like risky mortgages. LEND LEND LEND. They have to pay the piper and we as the tax payer do not have to bail out banks. Maybe they need to answer to shareholder instead.

Why can't we change the rules so if you want to declare bankruptcy student loans private are allowed? Why subsidized rich bankers who have no skin in the game?

[Fishindude77]

I'm not disagreeing but I'm pointing out that even jobs like an 'office manager" doesn't need a degree people now "expect" a degree. I also agree that most trades pay substantially better, but it's not pushed as a realistic opportunity for people when it should be. But at the same time there have been someone on her talking about how expensive even trade school for her son was/is currently. Substantially more than you would expect. So even in the trades the training which was a lot cheaper and a real return on investment isn't the same.

For every one "office manager / queen bee" job there are ten or more "worker bees" required.
You always could, and still can make a livable wage being the guy / gal that does the day to day work. Obviously, the more you know and learn, the higher your chances are for better income.

Nearly all trades these days are learned "on the job" with some after hours classroom time, etc.
The individuals are earning a good living while learning their trade, but just haven't reached upper income potential until they complete the training.

There is rarely an upfront cost to get started, but there typically are some minimum standards, basic reading, math and likely drug screening.


Regarding the student loans. Had the government not gotten involved and started guaranteeing these loans, they would have never existed.
No bank in their right mind is going to loan an 18 year old kid with no job $100k unless his parent have deep pockets and co-sign. Since the government backs these loans, the frivolous lending and borrowing goes on unchecked.

Another point - I borrowed money for a new car at 18 years old and knew I damn well had to repay that loan, or there would be consequences.
An 18 year old kid (especially one smart enough to get through college) can surely comprehend that loans are to be re-paid.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

For every one "office manager / queen bee" job there are ten or more "worker bees" required.
You always could, and still can make a livable wage being the guy / gal that does the day to day work. Obviously, the more you know and learn, the higher your chances are for better income.

Nearly all trades these days are learned "on the job" with some after hours classroom time, etc.
The individuals are earning a good living while learning their trade, but just haven't reached upper income potential until they complete the training.

There is rarely an upfront cost to get started, but there typically are some minimum standards, basic reading, math and likely drug screening.


Regarding the student loans. Had the government not gotten involved and started guaranteeing these loans, they would have never existed.
No bank in their right mind is going to loan an 18 year old kid with no job $100k unless his parent have deep pockets and co-sign. Since the government backs these loans, the frivolous lending and borrowing goes on unchecked.

Another point - I borrowed money for a new car at 18 years old and knew I damn well had to repay that loan, or there would be consequences.
An 18 year old kid (especially one smart enough to get through college) can surely comprehend that loans are to be re-paid.

Maybe but I don't think that on the job training is so easy to get. I have a guy who is trying to break into longshoreman. But he still bartends to make ends meet while he is moving up. Plus he had to get nominated.

I don't know if the government guarantees the private loans more than they can't be declared bankruptcy. Hasn't stopped people from declaring BK from CC or walking away from homes and cars. But we should make it as easy for student loans and only make the federal ones unforgivable and then see if banks stop the craziness.

Also parents are cosigning so what does that say about the country's financial literacy?

[disneysteve]

Also parents are cosigning so what does that say about the country's financial literacy?

Do you really need to ask that question?

Somebody on a recent thread here or on ER board said they were going to take out life insurance on their kid because they will be cosigning on 200K of student loans. That helps if the kid dies, but what if the kid lives but can't pay them back? Then the cosigner is screwed.