Worried about a Marriage

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I would like the forum perspective on this one. It's not my marriage (I am divorced) but in a lot of ways, I am really worried because there before the Grace of God goeth I. I care about both of them so I wish they could work it out.

Essentially, about 5 years ago he had an independent truck business go bad. Rising fuel prices, repairs, ins.. . .essentially, they left the business with 25K in debt (I think, may be more, I don't know) and they had to take out a mortgage against their house. They do own 2 other houses free and clear and frankly, I am unsure of their liquidity.

They are both in their upper 50's.

He did not want to go work for $10.00/hour so he took out another loan against a family member for another 25K for a bread/trucking business. he runs that route pretty consistently and does make money from it. I know we are used to numbers here and numbers do matter but you can imagine, I don't have access to the books as they are private.

I guess he "makes a living" at it. . .nothing spectacular, nothing shoddy.

She works as a fulltime manager for Wawa, a local convenience store to S. Jersey and carries the health insurance.

Okay, here's the thing when I look at it as unbiased as I can:

A. I think she's resentful she feels she needs to work fulltime at a hard job and carry health ins. for the both of him.
B. He does work hard, early morning route hours and so forth. He's not a bum by any means. Fixes cars by himself, can fix most anything in house, has helped me. He's like a big brother to me.
C. I would say she reminds me a lot of my ex-wife - kind of the opinion, "Good people don't take risks." I know that sort of makes no sense, but having lived it for 15 years, well, I was married to that. I'd say on a scale of 1 to 10 on risk taking, she's a 2, he's maybe a 5 or 6. I guess I wish they could meet in the middle somewhere.

Of course, i just don't know. . .maybe she's carrying the entire load for a floundering business. I have to take him at face value he brings in something. . .I guess I get her too as she wanted to see them both winding down their careers and here they are in their late 50's and he's trying to make a go of this.

And to add to all of this - zero intimacy in 3 years. (The Final Horseman of the Apocalypse of Divorce).

I don't know. . .I guess what bugs me about this, other than the personal note this adds, is they aren't that far off IMHO - a 2 on risk taking and maybe a 5/6 depending on how you look at it. And largely over this, divorce is now on the table? I don't know. It's my opinion no one should ever go through divorce except me, because I was a "science project" being married to.

Thoughts?

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I guess what I mean by a 5/6 is I don't think he entirely put his house on this business like another person I knew and they lost their house. He is of a "self-employed mindset" and I guess I see that.

I completely get her too though. . .she comes into my office in tears sometimes her job was so stressful.

I am no marriage counselor. . .I guess what I am trying to understand is, "What is normal? Why is a small home equity loan for something important to him causing this much strife? You and Saving Advicees going to take it with you? Somehow, since I was married to this, something tells me if it was about a new safe car for her drive around it, well then, a home equity loan ain't such a bad idea." I don't mean to be cynical about women with that comment, but I see a casual disregard by a lot of women for men's business. 23 years ago, he/they dropped thousands on in vitro fertilization. Somehow, then it was important to spend money on what I actually consider to be a trivial and unnecessary expense. But he want along with it for her.

Or is this Bag Lady Syndrome? Some day I may lose my house and be like that Bag Lady I pass on the way to work?

I know I am not very unbiased because I think I was exactly at where he is at. . .i want to tell him to take the stress off his wife somehow but he has a point that a $10.00/hour job isn't really perhaps going to improve thigns financially for them.

I do think our economy has often forced many workers into risks maybe marriages aren't accustomed to in the past.

Okay, I'll stop now and let you respond.

[Scanner]

Sorry. . .Bag Lady Syndrome. . .I'd say it's probably pretty common here at Saving Advice.

A Primer:

Do You Have the Bag Lady Syndrome? | Jawhara Arabia

[Slug]

Sorry, I still don't know what the question is. And, if I did, I would be speculating on what you are hypothesizing are the full dynamics of the relationship which you can't possibly know, esp. since many couples fail to understand their own dynamics. My apologies if that sounds harsh.

Additionally, my little red flags go off when I hear about a married woman coming to a single man seeking comfort, esp. when you have intimate knowledge of their intimacy issues. Those are the things that stood out to me in your posts.

[JoeP]

Sound to me like they need counseling. This isn't a financial issue.

[I-78 Commute]

Sound to me like they need counseling. This isn't a financial issue.

Agree with this.

[phantom]

It's so hard to form an opinion on this hearing it second hand. I'm a little confused on what exactly is going on. Have they said they're getting a divorce? Has she given him an ultimatum? Or are you just aware of some stress between them and guessing a divorce is coming?

If this really is just a matter of his work choices creating more financial stress that she is comfortable dealing with, I'm with you in thinking that there should be a way for them to work through their issues and avoid a divorce. Without know exactly how dire their financial situation is, I can't judge how much of that is her needing to relax and how much of it is him needing to make his work more predictable.

Putting myself in the wife's shoes, I can see being nervous about owning a business that can just as easily put you $25,000 in debt as actually earn you money. I'd be even more nervous about going an additional $25,000 in the hole to take on that risk all over again. The main thing I'd be looking for is way to keep an eye on the new business to make sure it didn't suddenly end up losing even more money. Gas prices could always spike again or demand could suddenly start to shrink. If my husband could promise that we'd be able to pull out before accumulating more debt should business conditions worsen, I'd probably leave him to running the business he enjoyed running. But, if there was no way of avoiding that risk, I'd rather he take the more predictable $10/hour or something else predictable and better paying.

As their friend, I would suggest that they seek professional counseling. This sounds a bit beyond what you can help them with, especially since it seems like you are pretty close with both of them. I'd still listen if they really wanted to talk, but I'd definitely direct them elsewhere for advice.

[Petunia 100]

Have they asked you for your advice/input? If not, you should MYOB.

[scfr]

As the wife of a small business owner, I'll put myself in her shoes. I wouldn't want my husband going in to debt to start a new business in his late 50's. It's one thing to do it at 30, but an entirely different scenario when you're so close to retirement age. If he could have bankrolled the business with cash savings and he was passionate about it, OK. But he didn't. He went in to debt. I don't think it necessarily means she's risk-averse. I think it means she's a realistic older woman who wants some security heading in to her golden years.

[MonkeyMama]

This reminds me of the serenity prayer. "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference."

I think most our friends' marriages have failed or are a mess, but I don't see what we could have possibly done to help any of them. ??? Likewise, I have never been under the illusion that I really had any clue what is going on in their private lives (even if I often heard one or both side of the stories). There is just so much that an outsider will never *get* about all the complicated dynamics of any marriage.

I think they need an ear or a shoulder to cry on, but don't see you can be much more than that.

[Gailete]

I take it the OP is a guy and thus probably does have trouble seeing the wife's viewpoint about things. And in general it probably is best to MYOB, but there is one thing that I would like to encourage him to do. See if the man is carrying his fair sahre of the work at home. Many men think that if they work their 40 hours or whatever, and possibly take out the garbage, they have fulfilled what they have to. She meanwhile may be also working fulltime also and still responsible for the cooking, cleaning, groceries, laundry, etc. etc. It is easy to get resentful especially when the husband then wants to spend money that isn't available (that the wife will have to work even harder to earn) on something that is his idea alone. If your friend is doing that guy thing of 'housework isn't my thing', he needs to be encouraged to pitch in and that might help his wife be more agreeable about a lot of things.

[neatdesign]

Sorry, I still don't know what the question is. And, if I did, I would be speculating on what you are hypothesizing are the full dynamics of the relationship which you can't possibly know, esp. since many couples fail to understand their own dynamics. My apologies if that sounds harsh.

Additionally, my little red flags go off when I hear about a married woman coming to a single man seeking comfort, esp. when you have intimate knowledge of their intimacy issues. Those are the things that stood out to me in your posts.

+1 - totally agree with this.

[Scanner]

Oh, I know to MYOB. . .I guess I was just "gossiping" here because it's finances that I think are leading to the marital strife.

I don't know. . .I was upset the other night when I penned the above, because again, I guess my sympathies lie with the guy in this case.

I mean. . .I don't want to write a thesis on this. . .but don't you feel the days of men "selling their labor on the open market" are coming to a close? I kind of get it was assumed that for my father's generation. . .

A. Man gets jobs. Provides healthcare. Does sucky job because that shows sacrifice.

Do any of you really think that often works nowadays into today's economy? With the rise of right to work and the decline of unions (whether you feel that's a good thing or not).

Could it be that he thought long and hard about this debt and decided given all risks and rewards, that this was the best way forward? For better, for worse? At least for him?

Yeah, there is no dishonor either with him takng a $10/hour truck driving job, she'd probably love him even more for it but I guess I happen to agree with him. . .they've amassed some amount of assets together. . .even if the 25K is 10% of their assets at age 58, if he wants to buy into a bread route, and he's doing this not for "fun", he's doing it to provide, then his wife should stand behind him.

Yes, I have taken a side but of course, I wouldn't show it.

I do sympathesize with her and have tried to counsel him a bit on that believe it or not. Like I said, he's like a big brother to me. . .he's coming over in 2-3 weekends to help me build a built in desk. He's a hard worker, even if not always a smart worker.

You know? That's life. You win some. You lose some.

Eh, as far as the sex-female-money issue. . .let's not even go there. I am lucky to be dating a woman who completely decouples financial status with sex right now but I know that's simply not universal. I counseled him that divorce rarely solves the problem you get divorced for in the first place. Money problems before? Money problems after. That being said, I owuld have to concede divorce solved my intimacy problem.

Like I said, that is the Final Horseman of the Divorce Apocalypse that has entered their marriage. It's only a matter of time before they drop the bomb on me.

Eh, maybe we arne't meant to be married forever. Maybe we should all prepare financially for the inevitable. . .a bit cynical, but maybe practical.

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And no, she is like a big sister to me. . .their daughter - a niece.

Really. . .nothing would ever be there. She's just an emotional person. I do think there is some psychological issues there - anxiety overlapped by depression. . .what a mess.

But who among us hasn't been there? I guess this is a slice of American life.

[Gailete]

but don't you feel the days of men "selling their labor on the open market" are coming to a close? I kind of get it was assumed that for my father's generation. . .

A. Man gets jobs. Provides healthcare. Does sucky job because that shows sacrifice.

Not even sure what you mean by all that.

Women do the same thing plus. Woman gets job, provides healthcare. Does sucky job because it shows sacrifice. Comes home from sucky job to more sucky jobs becaue hubby thinks he is done for the day (he worked 8 hours after all), so she makes dinner, cleans the house, runs laundry loads, checks kids homework, passes out into the bed where hubby thinks it is time for a little fun and games and doesn't understand why wife isn't interested.

Until men and women come to some understanding of fairness in job sharing in the home when both of them work, there is always going to be some trouble and finances enter into it as well. Even if a woman does all her 'work' at home caring for the home and children, her day runs 24 hours/7 days a week/365 days a year. Husbands can many times justify that they did their work now they should get a chance to rest and nothing around the house is their responsibility. When does the woman get to rest?

Finances are something that should be discussed together and any big investment that they will be doing together needs to be talked about. Even if this business is only 10% of their accumulated wealth, most of that wealth is undoubtedly in their house or retirement funds. Maybe she knows better than you that her husband doesn't have a head for numbers or business and even though he might be able to do the work doesn't mean he can run a business anywhere but into the ground.

No divorces aren't inevitable. And yes if there were money problems before they are probably still there later. But many of those problems exist because a couple won't talk honestly about their feelings and goals and what they would like to do with what finances they do have. If this couple wants advice from you, they should come to you as a couple and ask you for it and then you can possibly ask pertinent questions because as you yourself has said, he isn't always a smart worker which means very much he might not be a smart business owner. Ever watch Restaurant Impossible? Couple after couple take over restaurants with no idea how to run them and then can't figure out why their restaurant is failing. Substitute resturant for any other business and see how much a person knows before he jumps in feet first.