Should US wealth be redistributed?

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I want it somewhere in the middle, with more focus on education as a long-term solution.

I think.

[abowers]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Less government support in terms of food stamps, unemployment, etc. would provide more of an incentive to work harder. Making it available for shorter periods of time encourages its dependents to hurry up and find a job.

"This means no tax brackets. Everyone pays, say, 30% of their income in taxes."
Why is it fair to make the highest earners pay 30% of their income? They earned it. I'm all for a flat tax based on consumption.

But that's just an opinion.

[dealsaver]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse here, but if you folks are truly against wealth redistribution, then that means you're in favor of eliminating:

1. Social security (Both SSI and SSD)
2. Medicare, Medicaid, and all other medical and drug assistance programs
3. Progressive tax structure
a. This means no tax brackets. Everyone pays, say, 30% of their income in taxes.
b. This also means absolutely no deductions or credits that phase out based on income. No child or earned income tax credits, for example.
4. No welfare, food stamps, Public Aid, free or reduced lunches in schools, etc. -- at all.
5. No subsidized loans for education, starting a business, buying a home, or for any other purpose.

And there's probably more I'm not thinking of. If you can't work for enough income to survive, that's your problem.

Is that really what you want?

Ah, Nirvana.

Of course the tax rate probably wouldn't have to be 30% if we were going to reduce/eliminate many government programs.

[cercis]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

So what are you going to do for military people who are on foodstamps? They can't work harder and they can't get another job (in many cases their spouse has to give up a good paying job because the military member is transferred).

What about the people who have trained for years in a job only to have major employers in their area ship the jobs overseas and who are now having to train for something else. It isn't as though retraining will happen in a few months. We're talking at least 2 years just to update a college degree and then if they are older, they will have a very difficult time getting a new job.

Meanwhile, the people who moved their jobs overseas are getting raises and bonuses and paying less in taxes than ever before. They have an incentive to move jobs away from the US. Makes me wonder about the state of our union.

[retire@50]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Why are some military workers on food stamps and others are doing ok? Obviously some people are better at managing money than others, it's a skill that can be learned. Instead of teaching the skill, however, we reward the people who don't manage their money well by giving them more money to mis-manage. Instead of spending money on food stamps for military workers, why doesn't the military provide classes in buying groceries wisely, budgeting, and basic financial management?

Look at the end result of the governement programs that redistribute wealth. Is there less poverty in America because these programs are in place or did they modify the behavior of more Americans to rely on someone besides themselves for their financial well being, causing more Americans to be poor?

How many people don't save for their retirements because they think SS will cover them? How many people don't put money aside in an emergency fund because they know there are government programs to help them out in an emergency? Not all of course, and probably not even the majority. But a large enough percentage that when hard times hit, they are forced into poverty, because of the poor choices they made of relying on government programs and not putting money aside for their own financial welfare.

So now people are going to say these people are too poor to save anything for themselves. And that may be true for a small percentage. But if foreigners who don't speak our language, and have no money, can come here, get a job and save money, why can't Americans?

There are two classes of poor people in America. There are the people who are temporarily poor, who are working and trying to improve their lives. They may be poor due to unexpected illnesses or accidents or the economy. However, most of them are trying to improve thier situation and eventually they won't be poor any longer, although they may never be rich. Is it the job of America to step in and just hand them money to alievate their short-term problems, taking away the knowledge and pride they will earn by solving their own problems? Do you pick your children up everytime they fall? If so, how will they ever learn to get up by themselves?

The second group of poor people are poor because of bad life choices. Dropping out of school, drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. Giving money to this group rewards bad decisions and penalizes the people who made good life decisions, that resulted in them having more money, by taking that money away and giving it to bad decision makers.

So who decides who gets handed money to temporarily solve their problems? Our government is against making moral judgements, they won't say someone is more worthy than someone else. So they give money to everyone who asks for it and falls into a certain income category. I would guess that more people from the second group of poor people ask for government money than people in the first group, once again rewarding people for making poor decisions and also guaranteeing that even more people will make bad decisions perpetuating poverty.

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Where in tar-nation is VJW?! I thought he would've come in here pistols a' blazin' by now.

In so many ways I agree with Retire@50.

[cercis]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I think my problem with this is I look at it from a WWJD perspective. Jesus said "feed the hungry, heal the sick ... whatever you do for the least of these you do for me". He didn't say "aw screw 'em, it's their fault anyway".

So, I see the people who are falling and worry about them and their kids. I know how difficult it is just to maintain a lower middle class lifestyle when you've been raised in lower middle class.

As for the military - it depends on where they are stationed, if they are married and what rank they are. If they are stationed somewhere with base housing available for married people or where housing allowance will actually cover the cost of renting, then many can do okay. If they are married and the spouse has a job, then they can usually do okay. The problems happen when they are transferred unexpectedly and the spouse has to quit and can't find another job and they can't get on base housing and the local housing market is double the housing allowance.

I've had friends who were doing great, putting money away every month and then within 6 months (base transfer) they had exhausted all savings and were having to seek government help. The spouse was trying her hardest to find a job, any job, not even McDonald's would hire her (she needed set hours to arrange childcare).

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I think my problem with this is I look at it from a WWJD perspective. Jesus said "feed the hungry, heal the sick ... whatever you do for the least of these you do for me". He didn't say "aw screw 'em, it's their fault anyway".

That's right cercis, my big problem is with how we do it currently. As Retire@50 mentioned, it seems we enable a lot of people to continue with their current situation, which isn't working for them long-term (or working for their kids). That's why I mentioned education as a key. These lower middle class kids need to stop having it beat into their heads that the govt. is the answer, that they don't have a chance, etc. If we could somehow, effectively, teach them otherwise that would go so much further than just throwing money at them - which seems to just perpetuate the problem. Jesus solved people's problems.

[retire@50]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I think my problem with this is I look at it from a WWJD perspective. Jesus said "feed the hungry, heal the sick ... whatever you do for the least of these you do for me". He didn't say "aw screw 'em, it's their fault anyway".

So, I see the people who are falling and worry about them and their kids. I know how difficult it is just to maintain a lower middle class lifestyle when you've been raised in lower middle class.

As for the military - it depends on where they are stationed, if they are married and what rank they are. If they are stationed somewhere with base housing available for married people or where housing allowance will actually cover the cost of renting, then many can do okay. If they are married and the spouse has a job, then they can usually do okay. The problems happen when they are transferred unexpectedly and the spouse has to quit and can't find another job and they can't get on base housing and the local housing market is double the housing allowance.

Cercis, you should be commended for your caring heart. I'm only questioning your methods of helping, not your goal. I'm not advocating not helping the poor or people in genuine need. I'm saying wealth redistribution is not the way to solve the problem of poverty. It's a short term solution that reinforces the behaviors that generate poverty.

I agree with jimjj215, education is the key for a long term solution. As well as personal responsibililty. An awful lot of people anymore take the easiest approach to finances. Spending money on toys before paying bills, taking bankruptcy instead of repaying debts, not saving anything so every mishap is a financial crisis, etc. More people than in previous generations do this because they are rewarded for this kind of behavior by being bailed out of their financial problems through subsidized loans, wiping out debt and government programs.

[sweeps]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

"This means no tax brackets. Everyone pays, say, 30% of their income in taxes."
Why is it fair to make the highest earners pay 30% of their income? They earned it. I'm all for a flat tax based on consumption.

When everyone pays the same percentage of their income, that IS a flat tax.

If you want everyone to pay the same dollar amount of taxes, then that is a highly regressive tax.

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I think my problem with this is I look at it from a WWJD perspective. Jesus said "feed the hungry, heal the sick ... whatever you do for the least of these you do for me". He didn't say "aw screw 'em, it's their fault anyway".

In my home town, it's clear by the architecture of the buldings that WWJD that their priorities are not feeding the hungry or healing the sick. Their priorities are their luxurious palaces. These fancy churches are the main reason I have trouble finding any faith.

I agree with what's been said here. I don't know anyone who wants people to starve. It's terrible. I'd like to think of a 200 year solution. There is no reason why you couldn't end world hunger by 2205. I think the only way to do it is to end all hand outs except maybe a bowl of oats per day like you'd expect to get in Africa. People will get pissed off about their surroundings and will get a drive and a fire in them to change their situation.

While education is important, I think there is a crucial first step. From what I've read and seen, people that leave the projects and go on to great success were highly motivated. However, for the majority, It seams there is a defeatist mentality in the projects that says "I can't get out of here". When in reality, these people could probably go to college for free and stay out of the projects for good. So I think the first step is to get rid of the stigma that says you are stuck. That, combined with education is extremely powerful.

Brandon

[sweeps]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

The 200-year solution is the invention of replicators.

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Maybe your right.

However, technology has changed immensely in the past 200 years, but our core issues have not. It seams that the inventions of automobiles, telephones, supersonic jet airplanes, the internet, and the microwave (I'm not sure why I added the microwave) have not stopped wars, bigotry / racism, starvation, and stupidity.

Brandon

[Bruce Wayne]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

That post was like a red rag to a bull for VJW

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Speaking of our realistic buddy VJW, where is he?

Brandon