Should US wealth be redistributed?

[VJW]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

In a free market system wealth is given to those that provide the most value to society, thus encouraging people to purchase their goods or services.

Interesting 'theory', but America is not a “free market system”, and “wealth” is most certainly NOT “given to those that provide the most value to society”.

Unless you're suggesting that his family have been buying all of their software to the tune of several billion a year then this is utter twaddle.

I’m afraid not.

Gates himself has admitted that without his parents underwriting his Harvard education, as well as room & board, he would have had to hold down a job while attending a low-end college, which means he wouldn’t have had the ability to stay up all night writing code with his friends. Not to mention he wouldn’t have had access to Harvard’s advanced computer labs.

Oh, and let’s not forget that IBM only came to see him in the first place because of his Mother’s connections.

Bill Gates may have had a wealthy family before he founded Microsoft, I don't know and frankly don't care.

Gates cares, as like a lot of other people who ended up very wealthy, he benefited greatly from his parent’s affluence.

MS got big because a lot of companies used their software.

Which would have never existed if not for his parent’s wealth and connections.

You can easily use examples such as Richard Branson who come from poor backgrounds and have formed hugely successful companies.

And for every one of those, there are far more who either inherited their wealth or greatly benefited from their family’s wealth.

You're beginning to lose credibility with this statement

With who, Ayn Rand ?

because its incredibly Marxist

Now THAT is a kneeslapper !

Do you fear that Lenin is hiding in your closet ?

Free markets work so well because information isn't held in a central vault in Washington or London.

Too bad for you we don’t have any.

Suggesting you can control the lives of millions of people...

Where did you get the silly idea that I wanted to “control the lives of millions of people” ?

Are you daft ?

Once again, I could give you examples such as Richard Branson, Tom Hunter and many more that have become successful with none of your advantages.

And once again, I could give you many more times that of those who either inherited their wealth or greatly benefited from their family’s wealth, which is far more the norm.

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[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I’m less concerned as to how they’re doing it and more concerned with the fact that it is all too common with the wealthy.

I'd like to know how so I can see if there's any explanation for it besides the one you're implying. I'm guessing the county gave him a break specifically. If so, do we shame the county officials or Bill?

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

VJW, I recognize your side - and Gates has openly credited his background for helping him. But I wish you'd balance your statements at least a little bit because you come off as saying the absolute only reason he is successful is because of his parents - not because of his natural business acumen, gifted intellect (which isn't all Harvard born).

There are SO many variables that come into play with people's lives. I wish you'd give a bit more credit to those that aren't wealth-related. They also contribute in a big way.

[VJW]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

VJW, I recognize your side - and Gates has openly credited his background for helping him. But I wish you'd balance your statements at least a little bit because you come off as saying the absolute only reason he is successful is because of his parents

Which I've never stated.

There are SO many variables that come into play with people's lives. I wish you'd give a bit more credit to those that aren't wealth-related. They also contribute in a big way.

But they don't.

The bottom line is that the stats run quite heavily the other way, as some 86% of those that are currently considered being the “wealthiest” (as being on the Forbes 400 list), either directly inherited their wealth or achieved it with great assistance form their wealthy family.

I realize this does not sit well those that promulgate the ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps’, ‘self-reliance’, and most of all ‘hard work’ ideology, but that is the reality. Of course there are those that have accomplished it on their own from scratch, but people need to realize that they are in a distinct minority. I’ve never contended it cannot be accomplished, I’ve merely pointed out that it is not the pie-in-the-sky panacea that is constantly portrayed by some.

There is nothing wrong with anyone striving for success, it is quite admirable, as long as they know the realities going in, instead of relying upon hype and myths.

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[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I said you "come off as saying" because I recognize that you didn't out and out say it. Recognized.

You're talking about the richest 400. I do believe in the "bootstrap", "hard work" mentality. I don't aspire to the richest 400. I don't care about the richest 400. I think most people here don't care about that extreme end of the spectrum either. So when posts constantly go on about how you need wealth to make it, or at least 86% of the time, I think we're probably talking about "making it" a bit differently. You're thinking of the extreme 400, I'm thinking of living off passive income through hard work, investing, education, frugal living and hard work (again).

I agree with your post - note that. You are absolutely correct. I just don't care because I don't aspire to be one of them. It's too bad we can't sit down and talk face to face about thsi stuff, because throughout all of these conversations that I've either read or participated in, I get the feeling that people agree with each other much more than they disagree

[Bruce Wayne]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I thought I'd do a little research into this assertion of yours to the current top 10 of the Forbes rich list.

Bill Gates - He may have had assistance by his family but I doubt you'll find an entrepreneur who hasn't had this in some form. It doesn't take anything away from their achievement because his wealth has been earnt, not inherited.

Warren Buffet - Infamously started as a newspaper delivery boy and has since become a self made billionaire.

Paul Allen - Dropped out from uni with Bill Gates to form Microsoft. Has since invested in a range of other businesses and is a regular philanthropist.

Michael Dell - Started selling computers from his university dorm room, has since gone on to head the worlds best selling PC company.

Larry Ellison - founded Oracle in 1977 and has grown it to become the largest enterprise software company in the world.

So none of the top five so far have inherited the wealth they now have.

The next five are all members of the Walton family, so in that sense their wealth is inherited but remember that WalMart began as one solitary store before it grew into the behemouth it is today so the family wealth was created if not by the individuals currently in the Top 10.

Doesn't really support your argument too well VJW.

[miclason]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

...how do you think those families got to be wealthy in the first place?? If you go back long enough, you'll find someone that worked like crazy to start the family fortune...and you'll find people who strived to grow that fortune, just as you'll find people who wasted it away and ended up poor...the fact is, wealth cannot be distributed mathematically because, even if you did, it would end up in different hands by the end of the day, just because some people are better at making money than others...and, this does not always come from greater intellect or learning, although it can come from education...some people just have more "instinct" for it and it is thus easier for them...not ALL people whose family are wealthy and have connections end up being Bill Gates...you have to know how to use what you have...
The largest brewery in ES, for example...people rage about that family being so rich, but, they forget they had to re-start their business at least 5 times, because they kept going broke, they just kept at it and managed -in the end- to build an empire - which they just sold to an international company in a very profitable deal...will you begrudge their children for being born into wealth??...will you hold it against them that they have the connections that I - for example - lack?...does that make it impossible for ME to ever build a fortune? Granted, it makes it more difficult, but not impossible...besides, connections would have done nothing for Bill Gates if his product hadn't been good...precisely because the rich tend to care where they put their money and, no, they generally don't give it away!

[sweeps]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

the fact is, wealth cannot be distributed mathematically

Sure it can.

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Sweep, I didn't look to see where you were sending me with your link. I landed on it, saw the logo, grabbed my trash can that sits underneath my desk, and hurled.

[cercis]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Actually, Miclason, if you go back far enough you'll find people who broke laws and were completely unethical.

The Kennedys made a large portion of their money bootlegging liquor during prohibition. And my mind just went blank.

Most rich families relied heavily on oppressing any workers they could sucker into working for them. They broke employment laws (when they existed). They raped the environment ruthlessly.

There may be some that make their money ethically, legally and morally, but they'd be in the minority (bear in mind I'm talking about "old money").

[sweeps]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Most rich families relied heavily on oppressing any workers they could sucker into working for them. They broke employment laws (when they existed). They raped the environment ruthlessly.

Another good reason why pure capitalism could never work.

[Bruce Wayne]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Actually, Miclason, if you go back far enough you'll find people who broke laws and were completely unethical.

The Kennedys made a large portion of their money bootlegging liquor during prohibition. And my mind just went blank.

Most rich families relied heavily on oppressing any workers they could sucker into working for them. They broke employment laws (when they existed). They raped the environment ruthlessly.

There may be some that make their money ethically, legally and morally, but they'd be in the minority (bear in mind I'm talking about "old money").

Do you always speak in crass generalisations?

[cercis]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

And there's a pot calling the kettle black statement if ever I heard one.

[suedavids]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Do you think that redistributing the wealth of the richest people in the US should to the poorest people would make any difference at all?

Those who do not earn the money will love it. Those who have it taken away will have little insentive to continue. When you have at the core of your culture the idea that the state will decide personal property (if you can keep money, land/home and/or possessions), who can keep it and who will get it, the many will coerse the government to take from the few.

Around election time the drum beat is to insite those who want to be given from the dole, to vote for those who will take from others on their behalf.

[suedavids]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Do you think that redistributing the wealth of the richest people in the US should to the poorest people would make any difference at all?

Those who do not earn the money will love it. Those who have it taken away will have little insentive to continue. When you have at the core of your culture the idea that the state will decide personal property (money and possessions), who can keep it and who will get it, the many will coerse the government to take from the few.

Around election time the drum beat is to insite those who want to be given from the dole, to vote for those who will take from others on their behalf.